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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on November 23, 2004, at 22:52:39
In reply to Re: Anyone up? im so silly, posted by crazychickuk on November 22, 2004, at 22:07:31
magnesium is very calming.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2004, at 10:43:06
In reply to Re: Anyone up? im so silly, posted by linkadge on November 23, 2004, at 11:20:04
> magnesium is very calming.
>
>
> LinkadgeTold ya.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2004, at 11:38:17
In reply to Re: Anyone up? im so silly » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2004, at 10:43:06
Although I am still trying to determine if magnesium is more or less calming than lithium.
They have a slightly different feel to them.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 12:48:48
In reply to Re: Anyone up? im so silly » Larry Hoover, posted by linkadge on November 26, 2004, at 11:38:17
> Although I am still trying to determine if magnesium is more or less calming than lithium.
>
> They have a slightly different feel to them.
>
>
> LinkadgeAnd well they ought to. A number of your recent symptoms may be due to chronic loss of magnesium in urine, due to stress. I say may be, as the syndrome, sometimes called "latent tetany", is one without any proven diagnostic tests or measures. The "treatment" is magnesium challenge. If symptoms remit, then a functional magnesium deficiency is presumed.
The problem in assessing magnesium is that 98% of it is not in the blood at any one time. It's in bones, or in organs, acting to modulate various enzymes and receptors. Blood content is quite labile, and in a cruel quirk of biochemistry, magnesium is dumped into the blood to reduce adrenal responsivity, while at the same time, adrenal hormones increase its loss into urine. You can get into one of those classic vicious circles in short order.
Since you seem to be responding to magnesium, I also suggest that you fortify with vitamin D. It will help stabilize the parathyroid glands, which are always stressed in magnesium deficiency states.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2004, at 13:14:56
In reply to Re: magnesium » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 12:48:48
I find if I take more than 250mg of magnesium in supplement form, I start to feel "really incapable". Kind of like what I was like on therapudic dose of lithium.
I am on 600mg of lithium and I don't know if taking magnesium with this would be safe?
The first time I combined magnesium with lithium I got really strange body jerking.
Doesn't lithium raise blood levels of magnesium or something ??
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 13:52:35
In reply to Re: magnesium, posted by linkadge on November 26, 2004, at 13:14:56
> I find if I take more than 250mg of magnesium in supplement form, I start to feel "really incapable". Kind of like what I was like on therapudic dose of lithium.
>
> I am on 600mg of lithium and I don't know if taking magnesium with this would be safe?
>
> The first time I combined magnesium with lithium I got really strange body jerking.
>
> Doesn't lithium raise blood levels of magnesium or something ??
>
>
>
> LinkadgeLithium ions act on the parathyroid gland similarly to low calcium levels. Perhaps lithium ions block the calcium receptors, and hinder the response of the parathyroid? In any case, the increased parathyroid hormone causes demineralization of bone, and with it, increases in serum calcium and magnesium. The kidneys would ordinarily retain both magnesium and calcium under this condition (high PTH), but the increased diuresis caused by lithium causes net loss of magnesium.
Rat studies showed lithium-induced loss of magnesium from soft tissues, so it could be that humans do that too.
Maybe you'd do better if you split your magnesium dose, or took it only at night?
Lar
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2004, at 15:18:03
In reply to Re: magnesium » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 13:52:35
I'm under the impression that magnesium doesn't have the neurotrophic effects that lithium does.
Ie, does magnesium increase BDNF and NGF ??Is magnesium a serotonin autoreceptor antagonist ?
I'm just wondering to what degree magnesium can substitute for lithium in my case.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 11:28:43
In reply to mangesium doesn't have the neurotrophic effects..., posted by linkadge on November 26, 2004, at 15:18:03
> I'm under the impression that magnesium doesn't have the neurotrophic effects that lithium does.
> Ie, does magnesium increase BDNF and NGF ??
>
> Is magnesium a serotonin autoreceptor antagonist ?
>
> I'm just wondering to what degree magnesium can substitute for lithium in my case.
>
>
> LinkadgeSubstitute? Augment was how I was looking at it. Certain G-protein (second messenger) events at serotonin receptors require magnesium. Magnesium does have an indirect effect on BDNF, as far as I know.
Maybe you can take less lithium, and get magnesium benefits, too?
Lar
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 11:44:10
In reply to Re: mangesium doesn't have the neurotrophic effects... » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 11:28:43
Posted by rainy on December 6, 2004, at 15:32:47
In reply to Re: Anyone up? im so silly, posted by linkadge on November 23, 2004, at 11:20:04
I'm confused--I think I'm on the alternative board and people are talking about magnesium as an antianxiety agent. Larry Hoover, I recognize your name. Is this an innocuous supplement to take and quick, quick, what's the usual OTC starting dose for someone who's getting the serious heebeejeebies from wellbutrin SR? OR even hypomania? Or will this be against the rules for you to say?
If so, give me some references, please? Thanks,
rainy
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 9:57:09
In reply to about magnesuim, posted by rainy on December 6, 2004, at 15:32:47
> I'm confused--I think I'm on the alternative board and people are talking about magnesium as an antianxiety agent.
Yes, all true.
> Larry Hoover, I recognize your name.
This is my normal hangout.
> Is this an innocuous supplement to take and quick, quick, what's the usual OTC starting dose for someone who's getting the serious heebeejeebies from wellbutrin SR?
I'd cut the Wellbutrin dose as my first resort.
Niacinamide (make sure it's the AMIDE), 500 mg, 4 times a day, might bring immediate relief.
Also, taurine, up to two grams, twice daily.
> OR even hypomania?
Sorry I wasn't around for a quick response.
Magnesium's not innocuous, if you're not careful with it.
Too much magnesium supplementation will lead to diarrhea. People have a certain tolerance for magnesium intake, and if you exceed that, the gut floods with fluid.
Most people can tolerate a supplement of 300 mg/day to start, some much more than that. Over a period of time, your body will accomodate the extra intake, and tolerance will increase. In any case, you want to take 100 mg less than the dose that causes diarrhea, up to a maximum of around 1000 mg/day. You don't need more than that.
Magnesium oxide is the most common and cheapest supplemental form, but it is also by far the least well absorbed. Magnesium citrate, or glycinate or malate, or even hydroxide (milk of magnesia) are well absorbed.
> Or will this be against the rules for you to say?
This is the alternative board. We discuss alternatives, eh?
> If so, give me some references, please? Thanks,
> rainyhttp://www.mdheal.org/magnesiu1.htm
http://www.krispin.com/magnes.html
http://www.mgwater.com/index.shtml
http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#synapsesLar
Posted by rainy on December 10, 2004, at 11:54:03
In reply to Re: about magnesuim » rainy, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 9:57:09
Thanks. Our cats require taurine, but I'm not about to go on a Friskies diet. Off to Target!
I did cut the wellbutrin--pdoc wanted to discontinue it and start Abilify instead but way way too expensive, too new and has lizard tongue effect.This stuff sounds better.
rainy
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 16:34:22
In reply to Re: about magnesuim » Larry Hoover, posted by rainy on December 10, 2004, at 11:54:03
> Thanks. Our cats require taurine, but I'm not about to go on a Friskies diet. Off to Target!
Yes, cats are obligate consumers of taurine. They've lost the ability to make it, so they have to eat critters to get it (or wisely formulated grain-based formulas).
> I did cut the wellbutrin--pdoc wanted to discontinue it and start Abilify instead but way way too expensive, too new and has lizard tongue effect.
>
> This stuff sounds better.
>
> rainyWhat, pray tell, is lizard tongue effect? It bifurcates, and flicks in and out? Sheesh.
Lar
Posted by rainy on December 10, 2004, at 16:53:18
In reply to Re: about magnesuim » rainy, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 16:34:22
just sort of slithers or pokes in and out without owner's consent. Stays in one piece as far as I could tell. Mine was doing that thanks to Trazodone. You know, tardive dyskinesia, but that's so boring.
Actually someone on the med board used that description and I thought it really worked, so I adopted it for myself. People who write the package inserts really ought to look to us for copy; it would perk things up considerably.
rainy
This is the end of the thread.
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