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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jasmineneroli on November 24, 2004, at 1:24:40
Since I've been experimenting with tryptophan, under my Pdoc's care, I've become a little leery of taking amino acids, due to some unfortunate combination results recently.
I had wanted to increase my nightly dose up to 2000mg because I'm not getting enough sleep relief from 1500mg (and 500mg does nothing at all). This over a period of 3 weeks.
I am taking it with chromium picolinate, niacin and B6 (P5P), all apparently, will aid absorption.
(My Pdoc has given me the OK to go as high as 3000mg). My anxiety/depression seems to somewhat under control, but anxiety breaks through now and then, even though I'm still taking Klonopin.
I'm nervous about going up to 2,000 - 3,000mg.
I just discovered Dr. James South's site and read his recommendations on tryptophan for anxiety/insomnia. He suggests combining 500-1500mg tryptophan with 33mg 5HTP and 5mg Melatonin.
This sort of puts three phases of serotonin metabolism into your brain at once. Which I think is the point of the method!!
Has anyone tried this combo?
Does it seem safe :re-dosages? (isn't 50mg 5HTP equal to much higher doses of tryptophan..serotonin syndrome problem??).
Love to know your opinions.
Thanks,
Jas
PS (I go back to Pdoc in a week and would like to be armed with info).
Posted by KaraS on November 24, 2004, at 15:08:07
In reply to James South - anyone tried his recommendations?, posted by jasmineneroli on November 24, 2004, at 1:24:40
> Since I've been experimenting with tryptophan, under my Pdoc's care, I've become a little leery of taking amino acids, due to some unfortunate combination results recently.
> I had wanted to increase my nightly dose up to 2000mg because I'm not getting enough sleep relief from 1500mg (and 500mg does nothing at all). This over a period of 3 weeks.
> I am taking it with chromium picolinate, niacin and B6 (P5P), all apparently, will aid absorption.
> (My Pdoc has given me the OK to go as high as 3000mg). My anxiety/depression seems to somewhat under control, but anxiety breaks through now and then, even though I'm still taking Klonopin.
> I'm nervous about going up to 2,000 - 3,000mg.
> I just discovered Dr. James South's site and read his recommendations on tryptophan for anxiety/insomnia. He suggests combining 500-1500mg tryptophan with 33mg 5HTP and 5mg Melatonin.
> This sort of puts three phases of serotonin metabolism into your brain at once. Which I think is the point of the method!!
> Has anyone tried this combo?
> Does it seem safe :re-dosages? (isn't 50mg 5HTP equal to much higher doses of tryptophan..serotonin syndrome problem??).
> Love to know your opinions.
> Thanks,
> Jas
> PS (I go back to Pdoc in a week and would like to be armed with info).
>
I trust James South's recommendations but I'm also very conservative about combining serotonergics. I certainly wouldn't go over the amount of tryptophan he suggests - esp. if you're going to try all of the other things together.
I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say about this.
Posted by gromit on November 24, 2004, at 21:13:11
In reply to James South - anyone tried his recommendations?, posted by jasmineneroli on November 24, 2004, at 1:24:40
I read this article but it was on a site that sells drugs that make you smart. Is this his site? He does give an explaination why he recommends melatonin but nothing about 5HTP. In fact the section right above goes on about why tryptophan is a better choice than 5HTP.
I don't know what to make of it, it seems inconsistent but then I understand very little about the human body. I do believe your body will convert tryptophan to serotonin on demand, I didn't think you needed to worry about it unless you were taking an MAOI or something that blocks seroronin. I only posted because I am curious about this too, I just dumped my Lexapro without tapering. I can't tolerate SSRI medications and I'm thinking of trying precursors.
Thanks
Rick
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 10:06:38
In reply to James South - anyone tried his recommendations?, posted by jasmineneroli on November 24, 2004, at 1:24:40
> Since I've been experimenting with tryptophan, under my Pdoc's care, I've become a little leery of taking amino acids, due to some unfortunate combination results recently.
> I had wanted to increase my nightly dose up to 2000mg because I'm not getting enough sleep relief from 1500mg (and 500mg does nothing at all). This over a period of 3 weeks.
> I am taking it with chromium picolinate, niacin and B6 (P5P), all apparently, will aid absorption.
> (My Pdoc has given me the OK to go as high as 3000mg). My anxiety/depression seems to somewhat under control, but anxiety breaks through now and then, even though I'm still taking Klonopin.
> I'm nervous about going up to 2,000 - 3,000mg.
> I just discovered Dr. James South's site and read his recommendations on tryptophan for anxiety/insomnia. He suggests combining 500-1500mg tryptophan with 33mg 5HTP and 5mg Melatonin.
> This sort of puts three phases of serotonin metabolism into your brain at once. Which I think is the point of the method!!
> Has anyone tried this combo?
> Does it seem safe :re-dosages? (isn't 50mg 5HTP equal to much higher doses of tryptophan..serotonin syndrome problem??).
> Love to know your opinions.
> Thanks,
> Jas
> PS (I go back to Pdoc in a week and would like to be armed with info).I guess you've been to the Pdoc by now.....
Yes, the strategy is to simultaneously load different components of the tryptophan pathway. I see nothing inherently dangerous there, but the high dose of melatonin might cause problems on its own.
The pineal gland is thought to produce about .4 to .5 mg melatonin per day, all of it released just before your normal sleep time (diurnal cycle). Exogenous (sourced from outside, literally) melatonin can be poorly absorbed, or may not fully cross the blood/brain barrier (individual differences), so a high supplemental dose may be required to fully augment natural pineal secretion.
However, and this may be important, the melatonin receptors shut down if they're overstimulated, i.e. if they saturate. Too high a dose will have the same effect as if there was no melatonin present at all.
So, that's my only concern with the melatonin recommendation. Each person has to find their own acceptable dose. I personally find that 1.5 mg is about as high as I can go, or it inhibits sleep induction. Later in the night, I do fall asleep, but that is heavy sleep, and I'm definitely hung over the next morning. I was taking about .4 mg, but I raised it a bit due to an article that suggested that selegiline and melatonin worked synergistically to reduce dopamine auto-oxidation.
Lar
Posted by jasmineneroli on December 11, 2004, at 21:58:07
In reply to Re: James South - anyone tried his recommendations? » jasmineneroli, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 10:06:38
Thanks Lar,
I am holding off on the melatonin for now. Supplementing the 5HTP with the tryptophan, may reduce the overall cost (by reducing the amount of trypt. I'll take, see post below on $$$$).
Jas
Posted by MKB on December 11, 2004, at 22:18:28
In reply to Re: James South - anyone tried his recommendations? » jasmineneroli, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 10:06:38
I don't understand why melatonin would be needed with Tryptophan, since Tryptophan helps to produce melatonin.
Help?
Posted by jasmineneroli on December 11, 2004, at 23:19:30
In reply to Re: James South - anyone tried his recommendations? » Larry Hoover, posted by MKB on December 11, 2004, at 22:18:28
I think the idea is to provide the brain with melatonin, so that the tryptophan can metabloze to serotonin and is not needed to convert further, right away, since melatonin is ingested at the same time(??). Thus allowing maximum serotonin levels, for a longer period.
The brain then has all three stages of serotonin at once, so there is a "steady state" for optimal use.
Apparently (according to my Pdoc, anyway) tryptophan is rapidly metabolized in the body.
Jas
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 12, 2004, at 10:28:37
In reply to Re: James South - anyone tried his recommendations?, posted by jasmineneroli on December 11, 2004, at 23:19:30
> I think the idea is to provide the brain with melatonin, so that the tryptophan can metabloze to serotonin and is not needed to convert further, right away, since melatonin is ingested at the same time(??). Thus allowing maximum serotonin levels, for a longer period.
Exactly so. Remember, though, this protocol is based on a theory, a manner of thinking about how the brain works. There's no proof it's better, just a plausible mechanistic explanation that it's better.
> The brain then has all three stages of serotonin at once, so there is a "steady state" for optimal use.
> Apparently (according to my Pdoc, anyway) tryptophan is rapidly metabolized in the body.
> JasYes, in general it is. Except in the brain, where there is some storage capacity. The exact size of that storage capacity, and its duration, are not clearly defined.
Lar
Posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 14:28:44
In reply to Re: James South - anyone tried his recommendations? » jasmineneroli, posted by Larry Hoover on December 12, 2004, at 10:28:37
There must be tremendous variation among individuals. The 500-1000 mg Tryptophan I take nightly is quite sufficient. I can't imagine needing any more serotonin than what this is already producing. It seems to me that one should introduce these various products slowly and cautiously to avoid spending unnecessary dollars and to protect one's health.
Of course, I seem to be extremely sensitive to the smallest doses of most things, so maybe it's just me.
Posted by jasmineneroli on December 12, 2004, at 22:12:02
In reply to Re: James South - anyone tried his recommendations? » Larry Hoover, posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 14:28:44
Hi MKB:
You're absolutely right, start low and continue to titrate up, until you feel (IF that happens) better. Then stick there, and see what happens.Believe me, I'd rather not be taking 4 doses of trypt. per day at such horrendous cost!!!
I started at 500mg, but was told by my Pdoc that I should start at 1500mg and I could go up to 3000mg without referring back to him. He told me there was a massive range in responses to tryptophan, in his experience. He has patients doing well on 500mg and one that takes 6000mg!!!For myself, 500mg did nothing. 1500mg initially gave me brain zaps and helped my sleep, but then stopped effect (after about 2 weeks). I became anxious again, so my Pdoc told me to take 500 x 3, per day, plus 2000mg at bedtime. Even that huge dose does not make me drowsy! My sleep has improved again, SOMEWHAT, but not as much as originally on the 1500mg. My mood is a bit more even (not as anxious), but I'm not doing as well as I was on Celexa & Klonopin!
AND, I'm ordinarily, VERY sensitive to meds and supps too (depending on which ones). I only needed 10 mg Celexa and .5mg Klon. per day, to keep my GAD under control. (Those doses would be considered as sub-therapeutic doses by some docs!).
So, yeah, start slow, but don't under or over-estimate how much of ANYTHING your individual body might need. Even THEN, the same doses don't work as effectively in the SAME body, at different times. Nothing is static. It just pays to be attentive to your body, your sleep, your behaviour and reactions, and what's currently happening in your life too! Stress can throw any well-used med/supp. plan out the window!
Take care,
Jas
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 12, 2004, at 22:23:19
In reply to Re: James South - anyone tried his recommendations? » Larry Hoover, posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 14:28:44
> There must be tremendous variation among individuals. The 500-1000 mg Tryptophan I take nightly is quite sufficient. I can't imagine needing any more serotonin than what this is already producing. It seems to me that one should introduce these various products slowly and cautiously to avoid spending unnecessary dollars and to protect one's health.
Oh, absolutely, titrate upwards in dose, with caution. But I would add one more provision. Just as with a drug, titrate upwards until side effects make further dose increases unreasonable, or until remission of symptoms. Of course, there's always a possibility that the stuff just has no effect in a given individual (the empty wallet effect), but hey! Mama Nature don't make promises.
Anyway, I can think of numerous reasons why the dose-response to tryptophan can be so varied. There are known genetic variations in the transporter that pumps tryptophan across the blood/brain barrier. There are known genetic variations in the activity and efficiency of the first enzyme acting on tryptophan, tryptophan hydroxylase. The essential B-vitamin cofactor for that enzyme, tetrahydrobiopterin, is inefficiently produced by some people (Ray has been pushing biopterin, also known as BH4). The next enzyme also has variants in activity level, and also requires its own B-vitamin cofactor.....
Even when you know in general what sort of intervention you want to try, you're still left with doing the experiment. Even geeks like me have to do the experiment, because there are things that just can't be predicted.
Lar
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