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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 212 to 236 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by Simus on September 29, 2004, at 18:17:37
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » Simus, posted by raybakes on September 29, 2004, at 13:49:39
>
> > And to complicate matters, I have read that in people with both adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism, the adrenal fatigue should be treated first. People with both can feel worse if given thyroid hormone before the adrenals are stronger. ???
> >
> Hi Simus, this study supports your view about treating adrenals first..
>
> Evaluation of thyroid function in patients with isolated adrenocorticotropin deficiency.
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1332472
>
> Ray
>Ray,
(((jumping up and down))) (((jumping up and down))) (((HUG))) or if you are a man,(((handshake - but enthusiatic one)))
I have tested normal for thyroid hormones with the exception of TSH, which was out of range high but not extremely so. I never fit the profile of someone with thyroid problems (I lean more towards symptoms of hyper though), but my symptoms line up exactly with those of adrenal fatigue. I never knew what to do with the high TSH info. My naturopathic dr said I was hypothyroid based on my TSH, and gave me bladderwrack (iodine source) which I never had the courage to take because I have never done well with iodine or thyroid hormones. Now I have hope that I am similar to cases 5&6 in the study whose TSH normalized when the adrenal function improved. That finally makes sense.
Simus
Posted by TeeJay on September 29, 2004, at 19:56:40
In reply to What is n acetyl cysteine supposed to do? (nm), posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:01:48
Cysteine is an amino acid but in the form mentioned in my post, its supposed to be very good for breaking down mucous in the body and as such is recommended for ex-smokers to clear out their lungs of "rubbish". I just had a few left over from when I stopped smoking and I hate to chuck supplements away that are still in date.
Only got a few left and take just 1 500mg capsule each morning.
TJ
Posted by tealady on September 29, 2004, at 22:51:10
In reply to Re: What is n acetyl cysteine supposed to do?, posted by TeeJay on September 29, 2004, at 19:56:40
> Cysteine is an amino acid but in the form mentioned in my post, its supposed to be very good for breaking down mucous in the body and as such is recommended for ex-smokers to clear out their lungs of "rubbish". I just had a few left over from when I stopped smoking and I hate to chuck supplements away that are still in date.
>
> Only got a few left and take just 1 500mg capsule each morning.That's interesting.
I'd never heard of anyone taking it before, so just wondered...doubt if I could get it over here , actually don't even think I'd heard of it b4<g>. Heard a bit about cysteine and acetyl as words ..that's about it<g>
I was wondering if you knew of some benefits from combining the selenium and the n acetyl cysteine when I read this on selenocysteine from...
(Selenium research in mammals using nuclear analytical methods and related techniques in conjunction with biochemical procedures D. Behne, D. Alber, A. Kyriakopoulos)
"After ingestion of selenite, selenate or selenocysteine, nearly all of the
metabolized element is incorporated into specific biologically active selenoproteins in which it is present in the form of selenocystein"
"After ingestion of selenite, selenate or selenocysteine, nearly all of the
metabolized element is incorporated into specific biologically active selenoproteins in which it is present in the form of selenocysteine. Their levels are homeostatically controlled and cannot be further increased by additional Se supplementation. "In the case of dietary selenomethionine, a part of the element is a certain percentage, however, is deposited directly and non-specifically into proteins in place of methionine. This part depends on the ratio of selenomethionine and methionine in the diet and can be considerably increased by raising the dietary selenomethionine intake.
I take selenomethione (equiv to 25mcg selenium occasionally)..maybe twice a week, as my blood levels were above range and I get more fatigued if I take 50 mcg for a few days...and get a metallic taste in my mouth.
I've no idea what I'm doing really...sounds like I use it to replace some of the methionine as I don't supps in that at all?
What form do you take?
Also from same paper..and on not taking too much...
"Selenium is also highly toxic and the range between deficiency and the first signs of toxicity is relatively small."Jan
>
> TJ
Posted by raybakes on September 30, 2004, at 16:50:43
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on September 29, 2004, at 18:17:37
> (((jumping up and down))) (((jumping up and down))) (((HUG))) or if you are a man,(((handshake - but enthusiatic one)))Thank you, hug and handshake gladly accepted!
>
> I have tested normal for thyroid hormones with the exception of TSH, which was out of range high but not extremely so. I never fit the profile of someone with thyroid problems (I lean more towards symptoms of hyper though), but my symptoms line up exactly with those of adrenal fatigue. I never knew what to do with the high TSH info. My naturopathic dr said I was hypothyroid based on my TSH, and gave me bladderwrack (iodine source) which I never had the courage to take because I have never done well with iodine or thyroid hormones. Now I have hope that I am similar to cases 5&6 in the study whose TSH normalized when the adrenal function improved. That finally makes sense.
Yeah, think there must be so many different thyroid dysfunction scenarios... is it primary hypothyroid and secondary hyper/hypoadrenalisim, or primary hypoadrenalism and secondary hypothyroidism....or primary hypoadrenalism and secondary hyperpituitary. Think it must be important to have a map of what's going on, but seems most practitioners just want to give T4 or iodine. No one really talks about healing the adrenals or thyroid before trying to boost them. Have been trying some of the ideas out on my girlfriend using kinesiology and homeopathic testers to work out how to help heal her thyroid.Ray
Posted by raybakes on September 30, 2004, at 16:55:53
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 29, 2004, at 14:25:16
> > >
>
>
> I wonder how that translates for people with adrenal fatigue who are already taking thyroid hormone and have been for years. I only take 50 mcg. a day of thyroxine and I'm not completely certain that I have adrenal fatigue (but I probably do). I have been feeling a lot better in terms of the adrenal fatigue type symptoms lately but I wonder if I might be better off not taking the thyroxine.
>
> -K
Difficult to know what to do - thyroxine, does lower thyroid antibodies by around 25% - 30% for some people so you might get an increase. I'm working on my girlfriend using some of the info I've learnt from our chats on here - will let you know how it goes!Ray
Posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 19:53:38
In reply to Re: More jokes, licorice » tealady, posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:07:38
> As it happens, I have an interview as a medical transcriptionist on Friday. This is something I did as an entry level position 20 years ago into what evolved as a career in medical records. It's been a lot of years since I actually did transcription and didn't particularly like it then, but of course, everything is different now. Transcription requires a lot of concentration while also being quite boring somehow, but still I would be very pleased to have this job. It's full time and should pay better hourly than my tax job will once tax season starts. It could be the chance I need to get back on my feet financially.
>
> It would also be the chance I need to get back into my field. I kept up my C.E. credits and am still credentialed as a "registered health information manager" but my experience is too old to impress anyone. Yesterday when I was called for the interview I was happy and excited, but today I am feeling anxious and afraid of being disappointed. <sigh>
>I'm not sure what a medical transcriptionist is? Someone on the thyroid forum did that too I think, so it must be a US type job? ..sooo what do they do?
Whatever, I agree about the job. Good for some self esteem, like you feel like you are contributing something in the cogwheel but more so for some independence.
My last interview..about 3 years ago, I totally blew..and it should have been a walk in..but ya don't want to hear about that.
I'll try to reply more later...just wanted to wish you good luck.Oh what are C.E. credits too..and I guess you're training is something in the health field?
> It's so true what the Buddhists say about attachment and suffering. It's kind of hard not to be "attached" to wanting to have a job though!
>hmm what do Buddists say...though I can see they are related.
Jan
> JL
>
>
Posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 20:10:32
In reply to Re: More jokes, licorice » tealady, posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:07:38
> Thanks for the warning about licorice. I remember talking about it before now and thinking it might not be a good idea after all. Actually I think I'm not going to really try anything new just yet, just tweak the stuff I already have.
Here's one thread on it.. I guess you know about setting "advanced" view to view up to 20 posts at once..bottom RHS
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroiduk/messages?msg=2569.1I still have to take some licorice as without it I end up having to take cortisol and raising the amounts of various minerals, fiddling.. I'm trying to wean off..but I get kinda stressed out and its such a relief to take some...and this is only lollies..not huge doses..actually I might get around to phoning up the company for the strength today.
>
> Some great jokes, thanks! I've seen a number of those lists but this was a new one.
They were new to me too.
Posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 20:22:15
In reply to Re: More jokes, licorice » tealady, posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:07:38
I know C.E. continuing education credits.
Seen them on the web
Oh and it s Friday already here.
Jan
Posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 20:25:11
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on September 30, 2004, at 16:50:43
>No one really talks about healing the adrenals or thyroid before trying to boost them. Have been trying some of the ideas out on my girlfriend using kinesiology and homeopathic testers to work out how to help heal her thyroid.
>
> RayPlease let us know if you have any success. Lots of us out there need our thyroids healed!
-K
Posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 20:27:31
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » karaS, posted by raybakes on September 30, 2004, at 16:55:53
> > > >
> >
> >
> > I wonder how that translates for people with adrenal fatigue who are already taking thyroid hormone and have been for years. I only take 50 mcg. a day of thyroxine and I'm not completely certain that I have adrenal fatigue (but I probably do). I have been feeling a lot better in terms of the adrenal fatigue type symptoms lately but I wonder if I might be better off not taking the thyroxine.
> >
> > -K
>
> Difficult to know what to do - thyroxine, does lower thyroid antibodies by around 25% - 30% for some people so you might get an increase. I'm working on my girlfriend using some of the info I've learnt from our chats on here - will let you know how it goes!
>
> Ray
I think I'll stay on it for now. I can't afford to become less functional now.Thanks,
K
Posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 21:17:35
In reply to Re: What is n acetyl cysteine supposed to do?, posted by TeeJay on September 29, 2004, at 19:56:40
> Cysteine is an amino acid but in the form mentioned in my post, its supposed to be very good for breaking down mucous in the body and as such is recommended for ex-smokers to clear out their lungs of "rubbish". I just had a few left over from when I stopped smoking and I hate to chuck supplements away that are still in date.
>
> Only got a few left and take just 1 500mg capsule each morning.
>
> TJ
Also good for fighting against neurotoxicity via glutathoine.-Kara
Posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 21:34:37
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on September 29, 2004, at 18:17:37
> >
> > > And to complicate matters, I have read that in people with both adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism, the adrenal fatigue should be treated first. People with both can feel worse if given thyroid hormone before the adrenals are stronger. ???
> > >
> > Hi Simus, this study supports your view about treating adrenals first..
> >
> > Evaluation of thyroid function in patients with isolated adrenocorticotropin deficiency.
> >
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1332472
> >
> > Ray
> >
>
> Ray,
>
> (((jumping up and down))) (((jumping up and down))) (((HUG))) or if you are a man,(((handshake - but enthusiatic one)))
>
> I have tested normal for thyroid hormones with the exception of TSH, which was out of range high but not extremely so. I never fit the profile of someone with thyroid problems (I lean more towards symptoms of hyper though), but my symptoms line up exactly with those of adrenal fatigue. I never knew what to do with the high TSH info. My naturopathic dr said I was hypothyroid based on my TSH, and gave me bladderwrack (iodine source) which I never had the courage to take because I have never done well with iodine or thyroid hormones. Now I have hope that I am similar to cases 5&6 in the study whose TSH normalized when the adrenal function improved. That finally makes sense.
>
> Simus
Hey, I started Raybakes on this thread... don't I get any of the credit? :-)Kidding of course. I'm glad you have your answer. I'm still confused about my neighbor's condition. She doesn't have adrenal fatigue symptoms at all. She's thinking possibly hyperpituitary is her real problem. Maybe she's right.
Kara
Posted by JLx on September 30, 2004, at 21:48:24
In reply to Good luck with the interview today » JLx, posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 19:53:38
> I'm not sure what a medical transcriptionist is? Someone on the thyroid forum did that too I think, so it must be a US type job? ..sooo what do they do?Medical transcriptionists type the dictation of doctors: operative reports, histories and physicals, discharge summaries, etc. It's a slightly different skill from regular typing because you are listening and then typing what you hear, and of course, you have to be able to decipher what they're saying by knowing medical terminology. Anywhere there are health records, there are medical transcriptionists, except Third World medical facilities possibly where everything is done by hand, or unless very effective voice recognition software is being used. This is the Australia organization for my former profession: http://www.himaa.org.au/him.html My life fell apart about the time that records were really getting computerized, so I'm not up to date, that's my problem with picking up where I left off. Too many years of technological change.
> My last interview..about 3 years ago, I totally blew..and it should have been a walk in..but ya don't want to hear about that.
> I'll try to reply more later...just wanted to wish you good luck.Thanks. :) I've been trying to not worry before the fact, doing pretty well until tonight. Tomorrow I will load up on niacinamide and GABA!
> > It's so true what the Buddhists say about attachment and suffering. It's kind of hard not to be "attached" to wanting to have a job though!
> >
>
> hmm what do Buddists say...though I can see they are related.One of the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html is, "The origin of suffering is attachment." The idea in this instance, I think, is that I do my best in the interview when the time comes and then let go of the outcome. To the extent that I am thinking how desperate I am, and well, craving and desiring this job I'm suffering, especially if I don't get it. It's tricky business, to want something bad enough to go after it, but then be able to let go at the same time.
JL
Posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 22:28:10
In reply to Re: More jokes, licorice » tealady, posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:07:38
Posting here in bits and pieces as I come across them.
Here's another thread where I mentioned licorice
..might be intersting to some., although I may have mentioned this thread before.
End of thread if what I've been looking at lately re osmosis..no results as yet though.
Were you taking calcium supps when you got the kidney stones?..sorry bad memory today
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=53370.1Here' some of Larry's post on licorice, but I thought there was another more recent one?
I give up looking for the more recent one..but if anyone comes across it ..ah,maybe I dreamt it.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021108/msgs/126943.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/275736.html
Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 1, 2004, at 7:20:25
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 20:27:31
Hi Kara, came across this info about the relationship between selenium and iodine in thyroid health. Thyroxine production is quite a dangerous process as thyroid peroxidase produces the powerful free radical hyrogen peroxide, to oxidise iodine before adding it to thyroxine. N acetyl cysteine has been mentioned on this thread recently and both selenium and NAC are needed for glutathione peroxidase synthesis, to protect the thyroid from being damaged by it's own hydrogen peroxide - defficiency in glutathione/selenium has been suggested as one of the factors leading to hashimoto's. To take iodine when there is a glutathione/selenium deficiency, could cause the thyroid to produce more hydrogen peroxide than it can manage, and exacerbate the thyroid problems - the article also says too much selenium causes problems because it acclerates the T4-T3 conversion, exhausting supplies of T4.
Hope it's interesting!
a selenium deficiency causes an iodine deficiency to get worse. This may be a protective adaptation by the body to limit the damage caused to the thyroid when selenium is deficient and iodine is adequate. Let's examine this part of the interaction.We've all heard that many doctors tell hypo patients, especially those with Hashimoto's thyroiditis, not to take iodine because it can aggravate their condition. The reason seems to be that selenium protects the thyroid gland from oxidative damage and this damage can increase significantly if iodine is supplemented. Taking iodine will increase thyroid hormone production and the production of H2O2 which damages the thyroidal cells. The lack of selenium prevents GPX from being able to protect the cells from this oxidative damage. While I doubt if most doctors realize why iodine should be restricted (it certainly seemed counter-intuitive to me at first), they have learned through experience that iodine can increase the thyroid damage in Hashimoto's. The information that selenium should be supplemented along with iodine is so new that most of them are unaware of it.
Here's what we have: Studies have shown that if iodine is low, selenium must also be kept low to prevent the hypothyroidism from becoming worse (from increased DI-I and T4 depletion, as explained above.) So if both minerals are low, then the person is hypo and gets a goiter, but the damage to the thyroid is kept to a minimum. More severe problems happen when either selenium or iodine is high and the other is low. If selenium is high and iodine low, then T4 to T3 to T2 conversion is accelerated without T4 being replenished, leading to a worsening of the hypoT. If iodine is high and selenium is low, then H2O2 is not degraded by GPX. Since H2O2 drives the thyroid hormone production, then the thyroid over-produces thyroid hormone (Grave's hyperthyroidism), the thyroid is damaged from the oxidation by the H2O2, and the end result is that the damaged thyroid ultimately decreases activity and hypothyroidism results (Hashimoto's thyroiditis). This could explain the observed progression of Grave's to Hashimoto's.
Posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 7:20:59
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on September 30, 2004, at 16:50:43
I wonder about kinesiology... What is your opinion?
Simus
Posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 7:40:11
In reply to Re: More jokes, licorice » JLx, posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 20:10:32
> > Thanks for the warning about licorice. I remember talking about it before now and thinking it might not be a good idea after all. Actually I think I'm not going to really try anything new just yet, just tweak the stuff I already have.
> Here's one thread on it.. I guess you know about setting "advanced" view to view up to 20 posts at once..bottom RHS
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroiduk/messages?msg=2569.1
>
> I still have to take some licorice as without it I end up having to take cortisol and raising the amounts of various minerals, fiddling.. I'm trying to wean off..but I get kinda stressed out and its such a relief to take some...and this is only lollies..not huge doses..actually I might get around to phoning up the company for the strength today.
>
> >
> > Some great jokes, thanks! I've seen a number of those lists but this was a new one.
> They were new to me too.
>
>
I am giving up on licorice. I took it in capsule form and became very ill (may or may not have been from the licorice). Then I bought a tincture and put it in my tea because I wanted to give it a fair try but I wanted to control the quantity. After sipping about 1/2 c. of tea, I started feeling a little worse - but not as bad as on the capsule. Anyway, I guess I will try something different.Simus
Posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 7:48:03
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 21:34:37
> > (((jumping up and down))) (((jumping up and down))) (((HUG))) or if you are a man,(((handshake - but enthusiatic one)))
> >
> > I have tested normal for thyroid hormones with the exception of TSH, which was out of range high but not extremely so. I never fit the profile of someone with thyroid problems (I lean more towards symptoms of hyper though), but my symptoms line up exactly with those of adrenal fatigue. I never knew what to do with the high TSH info. My naturopathic dr said I was hypothyroid based on my TSH, and gave me bladderwrack (iodine source) which I never had the courage to take because I have never done well with iodine or thyroid hormones. Now I have hope that I am similar to cases 5&6 in the study whose TSH normalized when the adrenal function improved. That finally makes sense.
> >
> > Simus
>
>
> Hey, I started Raybakes on this thread... don't I get any of the credit? :-)(((Jumping up and down for Kara))) ((Jumping up and down for Kara))) (((hug for you too)))
>
> Kidding of course. I'm glad you have your answer. I'm still confused about my neighbor's condition. She doesn't have adrenal fatigue symptoms at all. She's thinking possibly hyperpituitary is her real problem. Maybe she's right.
>
> KaraCould be pituitary... I wonder if that would be difficult to test for...
Simus
Posted by raybakes on October 1, 2004, at 13:36:30
In reply to Kinesiology » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 7:20:59
> I wonder about kinesiology... What is your opinion?
>
It's really helped me a lot but I did see four of five kinesiologists before I found a good one. I found it a useful feedback tool, and it's only as good as the person using it. It is very easy to influence the testing, so it's so important to keep your mind in neutral when working!Tried some of the ideas on this thread on my GF, who has menstual irregularities, to see if she had a thyroid problem. Using homeopathic testers I tested Ig G, Ig E, Ig M and Ig A, whilst touching her thyroid to see if she muscle tested for antibodies to her thyroid (Ig G tested positive) - then tried supplements to see which supplements would abolish the response - transdermal glutathione, B1, lipoic acid, riboflavin, niacinamide and selenium, together all abolished the muscle response to Ig G.
She's not that keen on taking supplements, so not sure she'll stick at it, but it was a useful experiment!
Ray
Posted by tealady on October 1, 2004, at 19:17:38
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 7:48:03
> > > I have tested normal for thyroid hormones with the exception of TSH, which was out of range high but not extremely so. I never fit the profile of someone with thyroid problems (I lean more towards symptoms of hyper though), but my symptoms line up exactly with those of adrenal fatigue. I never knew what to do with the high TSH info. My naturopathic dr said I was hypothyroid based on my TSH, and gave me bladderwrack (iodine source) which I never had the courage to take because I have never done well with iodine or thyroid hormones. Now I have hope that I am similar to cases 5&6 in the study whose TSH normalized when the adrenal function improved. That finally makes sense.
> Could be pituitary... I wonder if that would be difficult to test for...
>
> Simus
>Usually with pit. problems your TSH would be too low..as the pit. makes the TSH and the usual thing is when it is having problems it doesn't make much..so you get very low TSH together with low Ft3 and low FT4 ..as no TSH to stimulate thyroid to make hormones (from memory)
This is opposed to low TSH in hyperthyroid together with high FT3 where the feedback of high FT3/FT4 (or is it just T3/T4, no idea) to the pit. is suppressing the pit. output of TSH.Your TSH is not really very high (although I'd be dead before mine got there I suspect). A heck of a lot of endos won't treat for hypo with a TSH under 10..the one I first went to likes to wait until your TSH is over 100..maybe that cuts down his patient waiting list (kidding!. I guess it keeps most of the patients he treats to plain hypothyroid patients though.)
I thought maybe the pdrugs you were taking might possibily be interfering causing your pit to receive modified feedback and it therefore raises your TSH..causing you to maybe make slightly high levels of thyroid hormones..hence how you feel.
You really can't tell much without an FT3?
apsirin, alcohol, dopamine, tyrptophan , cortisol etc..probably everything probably alter the feedback/levels within the HPA-thyroid
"axis"..in other words..I don't think the HPA axis or the hypothalmus-pit-thyroid regulation are independant of everything else.Still it's good to rule out other possibilites, like the antibodies too...or even low ferritin, selenium, zinc or other mineral levels which stop optimal thyroid hormone production and usage.
Although in your case , if you are feeling a tad hyper in symptoms you may find your ferritin is on the high side.Unfortunately nothing in our body is isolated..much as the medical profession likes to categorize..but it's horribly confusing to try to put it together..so I see why they like to break it up.
I get lost.
Posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 23:12:57
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by tealady on October 1, 2004, at 19:17:38
> I thought maybe the pdrugs you were taking might possibily be interfering causing your pit to receive modified feedback and it therefore raises your TSH..causing you to maybe make slightly high levels of thyroid hormones..hence how you feel.
Very well could be the ADs...
> You really can't tell much without an FT3?I do need to get more testing done. But it is so expensive that I want to make sure that I get the right tests done.
> apsirin, alcohol, dopamine, tyrptophan , cortisol etc..probably everything probably alter the feedback/levels within the HPA-thyroid
> "axis"..in other words..I don't think the HPA axis or the hypothalmus-pit-thyroid regulation are independant of everything else.Yeah, so many things it could be.
> Still it's good to rule out other possibilites, like the antibodies too...or even low ferritin, selenium, zinc or other mineral levels which stop optimal thyroid hormone production and usage.
> Although in your case , if you are feeling a tad hyper in symptoms you may find your ferritin is on the high side.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is ferritin? I would guess it has something to do with iron because of similar root words, but I just don't know.> Unfortunately nothing in our body is isolated..much as the medical profession likes to categorize..but it's horribly confusing to try to put it together..so I see why they like to break it up.
> I get lost.Thanks for all your help (I really like the thyroid/adrenal message board & site you recommended previously).
Simus
Posted by karaS on October 1, 2004, at 23:47:10
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 1, 2004, at 7:20:25
> Hi Kara, came across this info about the relationship between selenium and iodine in thyroid health. Thyroxine production is quite a dangerous process as thyroid peroxidase produces the powerful free radical hyrogen peroxide, to oxidise iodine before adding it to thyroxine. N acetyl cysteine has been mentioned on this thread recently and both selenium and NAC are needed for glutathione peroxidase synthesis, to protect the thyroid from being damaged by it's own hydrogen peroxide - defficiency in glutathione/selenium has been suggested as one of the factors leading to hashimoto's. To take iodine when there is a glutathione/selenium deficiency, could cause the thyroid to produce more hydrogen peroxide than it can manage, and exacerbate the thyroid problems - the article also says too much selenium causes problems because it acclerates the T4-T3 conversion, exhausting supplies of T4.
>
> Hope it's interesting!
>
>
> a selenium deficiency causes an iodine deficiency to get worse. This may be a protective adaptation by the body to limit the damage caused to the thyroid when selenium is deficient and iodine is adequate. Let's examine this part of the interaction.
>
> We've all heard that many doctors tell hypo patients, especially those with Hashimoto's thyroiditis, not to take iodine because it can aggravate their condition. The reason seems to be that selenium protects the thyroid gland from oxidative damage and this damage can increase significantly if iodine is supplemented. Taking iodine will increase thyroid hormone production and the production of H2O2 which damages the thyroidal cells. The lack of selenium prevents GPX from being able to protect the cells from this oxidative damage. While I doubt if most doctors realize why iodine should be restricted (it certainly seemed counter-intuitive to me at first), they have learned through experience that iodine can increase the thyroid damage in Hashimoto's. The information that selenium should be supplemented along with iodine is so new that most of them are unaware of it.
>
> Here's what we have: Studies have shown that if iodine is low, selenium must also be kept low to prevent the hypothyroidism from becoming worse (from increased DI-I and T4 depletion, as explained above.) So if both minerals are low, then the person is hypo and gets a goiter, but the damage to the thyroid is kept to a minimum. More severe problems happen when either selenium or iodine is high and the other is low. If selenium is high and iodine low, then T4 to T3 to T2 conversion is accelerated without T4 being replenished, leading to a worsening of the hypoT. If iodine is high and selenium is low, then H2O2 is not degraded by GPX. Since H2O2 drives the thyroid hormone production, then the thyroid over-produces thyroid hormone (Grave's hyperthyroidism), the thyroid is damaged from the oxidation by the H2O2, and the end result is that the damaged thyroid ultimately decreases activity and hypothyroidism results (Hashimoto's thyroiditis). This could explain the observed progression of Grave's to Hashimoto's.
Thanks again Ray.
I am more and more convinced that this is all such a delicate balancing act of so many different things. It seems that if any one factor is a little bit off, hypothyroidism can result. After reading all of your posts lately, I'm wondering how anyone manages to NOT be hypothyroid!!!Also, I wonder why Hashimoto's strikes women so disproportionately. I know that autoimmune conditions in general strke women in greater percentage. I wonder though how this issue fits in with you recent posts on this topic.
-k
Posted by karaS on October 1, 2004, at 23:51:38
In reply to Re: Kinesiology » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 1, 2004, at 13:36:30
> > I wonder about kinesiology... What is your opinion?
> >
>
> It's really helped me a lot but I did see four of five kinesiologists before I found a good one. I found it a useful feedback tool, and it's only as good as the person using it. It is very easy to influence the testing, so it's so important to keep your mind in neutral when working!
>
> Tried some of the ideas on this thread on my GF, who has menstual irregularities, to see if she had a thyroid problem. Using homeopathic testers I tested Ig G, Ig E, Ig M and Ig A, whilst touching her thyroid to see if she muscle tested for antibodies to her thyroid (Ig G tested positive) - then tried supplements to see which supplements would abolish the response - transdermal glutathione, B1, lipoic acid, riboflavin, niacinamide and selenium, together all abolished the muscle response to Ig G.
>
> She's not that keen on taking supplements, so not sure she'll stick at it, but it was a useful experiment!
>
> Ray
Lucky girlfriend to have her own personal researcher!BTW, where does one get transdermal glutathione?
-K
Posted by raybakes on October 2, 2004, at 5:15:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 1, 2004, at 23:47:10
>Also, I wonder why Hashimoto's strikes women so disproportionately. I know that autoimmune conditions in general strke women in greater percentage. I wonder though how this issue fits in with you recent posts on this topic.
I think that women are far more sensitive to a negative enviroment than men - after all, the menstrual cycle is sensitive to moon cycles - you can't get more sensitive than that!I think modern life is a disaster for women, and may need to live more in tune with nature to maintain their sanity and health.
Some of the things that might affect the thyroid...
the pill, and other estrogen mimics such as pesticides and plastics.
Perfume, make-up, hair care products, carpets and cleaning products (don't want to sound too sexist!). My head fogs up if my gf wears perfume, can't bear to think what it's doing to her! Think it's time for women to reclaim 'beauty' - why would anyone want to douse themselves with carcinogens just to be 'beautiful!'
Sick buildings - too many positive ions and pollution.
Smoking, alcohol, stimulants and sugar.
Poor food choices and diets -glutathione is rich in fresh fruit and vegetables...
"Several foods contain naturally occurring glutathione, including avocado, watermelon, asparagus, acorn squash, strawberries, orange, tomato, cantaloupe, okra, peach, zucchini, and spinach."Stress, lack of spiritual connection with ourselves, not having a voice (i'm sure having a voice in our own destiny is good for the thyroid!)
amalgams, throat and ear infections, chronic tonsil and adenoid infections and inflammation due to poor surgery as a child.
So I think you're right, the poor little thyroid doesn't stand a chance!
The transdermal glutathione is made by kirkman, the labs who specialise in autisic supplements - as autistic kids suffer from autoimmune problems in the extreme, found it useful to pay attention to the latest research in that area - I do find it needs selenium and a few B vits to work though.
Talking to Iris about prolactin (think I confused her though!) found elevated prolactin to be involved in autoimmune disease, and a search shows that, it is high in hashimoto's - as dopamine inhibits prolactin, could be why tyrosine is good for pain relief?
'Elevated prolactin to cortisol ratio and polyclonal autoimmune activation in Hashimoto's thyroiditis.'
Posted by tealady on October 2, 2004, at 9:10:39
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » tealady, posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 23:12:57
> > Still it's good to rule out other possibilites, like the antibodies too...or even low ferritin, selenium, zinc or other mineral levels which stop optimal thyroid hormone production and usage.
> > Although in your case , if you are feeling a tad hyper in symptoms you may find your ferritin is on the high side.
>
> Pardon my ignorance, but what is ferritin? I would guess it has something to do with iron because of similar root words, but I just don't know.
>
I knew someone asked for ferritin..Dr Bob had sit closed for posting when I tried replying B4Ferritin is an iron-protein complex formed from an intracellular acceptor called Apoferritin. Apoferritin is a large molecular weight 450,000 protein produced by the liver. Iron as Fe (HO)3 linked to apoferritin is then stored in the cytoplasm of the reticuloendothelial system, liver, spleen and bone marrow. Ferritin is the body's iron storage protein functioning primarily as a site for iron storage from which iron may be mobilized in response to such stimuli a dietary change, blood loss or pregnancy
Serum ferritin offers a convenient and accurate measure of total body iron stores, by means of diagnosing iron-deficiency and anemia due to such causes as inflammation and hepatic or renal disease. In addition, serum ferritin concentration may be useful in detecting iron overload
> > Unfortunately nothing in our body is isolated..much as the medical profession likes to categorize..but it's horribly confusing to try to put it together..so I see why they like to break it up.
> > I get lost.
>
> Thanks for all your help (I really like the thyroid/adrenal message board & site you recommended previously).http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=53370.1 (whole thread)
has a bit on adrenals. I'm just finally getting around to reading a link posted me last year..now can half understand it!
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=53370.29
got some stuff on aldosterone, potassium, sodium, breakdown of cholesterol, licorice etc.
Still haven't figured myself out though <g>Jan
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