![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 39. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Charm on June 11, 2004, at 11:24:42
I'm sure many of you have seen this by now -- it may even already be posted. I'm referring to the recent study treating persons with Atypical Depression with Chromium Picolinate. Here's a link to the story:
http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256EA70066FAFCActually, it's currently showing up in quite a number of sites. Since I often feel like the "poster child" for atypical depression, I started this regiment yesterday and am looking forward to seeing what kind of results I get over the next 8 to 10 weeks.
On other sites, I've seen suggested doses up to 1,000 mcg per day as compared with the 600 used in the study. I've also run upon sites that don't consider it safe to take this high amount.
For myself, I'm going with the 1,000 per day taken with some supplemental biotin.
Hopefully I'll have some positive results to report.
Everyone have a great day!
Charm
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 12, 2004, at 17:39:41
In reply to Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression, posted by Charm on June 11, 2004, at 11:24:42
> I'm sure many of you have seen this by now -- it may even already be posted. I'm referring to the recent study treating persons with Atypical Depression with Chromium Picolinate. Here's a link to the story:
> http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256EA70066FAFCI hadn't seen this before now. Thanks for posting it.
> Actually, it's currently showing up in quite a number of sites. Since I often feel like the "poster child" for atypical depression, I started this regiment yesterday and am looking forward to seeing what kind of results I get over the next 8 to 10 weeks.
>
> On other sites, I've seen suggested doses up to 1,000 mcg per day as compared with the 600 used in the study. I've also run upon sites that don't consider it safe to take this high amount.I just looked, and the NIH does not have an UL set for chromium. They have not established a toxic intake level. It should be noted that your suggested intake is roughly thirty times the suggested daily intake.
I *have* seen evidence that picolinic acid, the counter-ion for your chromium supplement, does have toxic effects.
> For myself, I'm going with the 1,000 per day taken with some supplemental biotin.
>
> Hopefully I'll have some positive results to report.
>
> Everyone have a great day!
>
> CharmPlease, do report back.
Lar
Posted by Charm on June 14, 2004, at 9:50:59
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression » Charm, posted by Larry Hoover on June 12, 2004, at 17:39:41
Hello Lar!
Thanks so much for the feedback! Would you please tell me what a "counter ion" is? I'm unfamiliar with this term.
Thanks again!
Charm
> > I'm sure many of you have seen this by now -- it may even already be posted. I'm referring to the recent study treating persons with Atypical Depression with Chromium Picolinate. Here's a link to the story:
> > http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256EA70066FAFC
>
> I hadn't seen this before now. Thanks for posting it.
>
> > Actually, it's currently showing up in quite a number of sites. Since I often feel like the "poster child" for atypical depression, I started this regiment yesterday and am looking forward to seeing what kind of results I get over the next 8 to 10 weeks.
> >
> > On other sites, I've seen suggested doses up to 1,000 mcg per day as compared with the 600 used in the study. I've also run upon sites that don't consider it safe to take this high amount.
>
> I just looked, and the NIH does not have an UL set for chromium. They have not established a toxic intake level. It should be noted that your suggested intake is roughly thirty times the suggested daily intake.
>
> I *have* seen evidence that picolinic acid, the counter-ion for your chromium supplement, does have toxic effects.
>
> > For myself, I'm going with the 1,000 per day taken with some supplemental biotin.
> >
> > Hopefully I'll have some positive results to report.
> >
> > Everyone have a great day!
> >
> > Charm
>
> Please, do report back.
>
> Lar
>
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 15, 2004, at 9:28:44
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression, posted by Charm on June 14, 2004, at 9:50:59
> Hello Lar!
>
> Thanks so much for the feedback! Would you please tell me what a "counter ion" is? I'm unfamiliar with this term.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> CharmMinerals such as zinc, chromium, iron, etc., can be in two forms. One is a salt, which is an ionic complex. The other is a covalent compound.
Here's an example. Magnesium oxide is a covalent compound. The oxygen and magnesium share a chemical bond. An actual chemical reaction is required to liberate magnesium ions (e.g. with hydrochloric acid in the stomach). That's a reason why mag oxide is not the preferred supplement form.
An ionic complex goes by the more common name "salt". Most people think table salt, but there are all kinds of salts. An example, again using magnesium, is magnesium chloride. The magnesium is already an ion, and so is the chloride. They're held together by weaker forces, more like weak magnets. Salts (generally) readily dissolve in water, so no chemical reaction is required to liberate the magnesium. The ion we're interested in is the magnesium, (Mg++), so the other one (which could be lots of different things) is called the counter-ion (in this case, chloride(-)).
Now, as to chromium picolinate. That is a salt formed from chromium ions and the ionic form of picolinic acid. Picolinate has some toxic effects, apparently. So, choosing a different chromium salt, but still maintaining your dose at around 1,000 mcg chromium, might be safer. Chelated chromium is fairly commonly available.
Lar
Posted by Cecilia on June 25, 2004, at 1:17:19
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression » Charm, posted by Larry Hoover on June 15, 2004, at 9:28:44
When I googled chromium picolinate I found lots of articles suggesting it was potentially carcinogenic. Is there later research disputing this? Cecilia
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 25, 2004, at 7:13:07
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression, posted by Cecilia on June 25, 2004, at 1:17:19
> When I googled chromium picolinate I found lots of articles suggesting it was potentially carcinogenic. Is there later research disputing this? Cecilia
Actually, there is. There are two parts two chromium picolinate. The chromium ion in its pure state was shown to have no adverse effects. When picolinate was tested, it was found to have dose-dependent adverse effects. The problem is the picolinate, not the chromium.
Pubmed is down right now, or I'd show you the abstract.
Lar
Posted by Cecilia on June 26, 2004, at 1:46:00
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression » Cecilia, posted by Larry Hoover on June 25, 2004, at 7:13:07
Yeah, the articles I read all said that the problem was with the picolinate, but this recent study was done with picolinate. How do you know how much is safe? Cecilia
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 27, 2004, at 9:46:32
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression, posted by Cecilia on June 26, 2004, at 1:46:00
> Yeah, the articles I read all said that the problem was with the picolinate, but this recent study was done with picolinate. How do you know how much is safe? Cecilia
Picolinic acid is a minor metabolite of tryptophan. It's only ever found in the body in trace amounts. It's possible that it overloads a system never meant to handle high concentrations of the chemical.
Chromium is also a rather reactive mineral. For some reason, the combination of chromium and picolinic acid is worse than either one alone. It may not be safe to use them together. That said, the risk is small. But why chance it? There are other chromium supps to consider.
Lar
Posted by Cecilia on June 29, 2004, at 1:32:49
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression » Charm, posted by Larry Hoover on June 15, 2004, at 9:28:44
So what type of chromium is considered safest? I just checked the two bottles of multivitamins I have, one said it contained chromium chloride (150 mcg) the other just said chromium. I wonder why they used the picolinate form in this study. It seems so crazy-the FDA stalls forever on approving new meds, yet all these supplements are totally unregulated. (Just a rant). Cecilia
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 1, 2004, at 9:57:29
In reply to Question for Larry Hoover, posted by Cecilia on June 29, 2004, at 1:32:49
> So what type of chromium is considered safest? I just checked the two bottles of multivitamins I have, one said it contained chromium chloride (150 mcg) the other just said chromium.
Chromium chloride is an excellent alternative. Another one would be chelated chromium, but I would hope the label would specify the chelating compound. Chromium picolinate is a chelated chromium compound.
> I wonder why they used the picolinate form in this study.
It's widely available. I should also emphasize that the clastogenic (DNA-disturbing) effects of chromium picolinate are not proven in living organisms. Only in laboratory cultures, under very artificial conditions, and highly manipulated concentrations. Chromium picolinate may be perfectly safe, but it may not be, too. The risk is small (or chromium picolinate would have been withdrawn from the market altogether).
> It seems so crazy-the FDA stalls forever on approving new meds, yet all these supplements are totally unregulated. (Just a rant). Cecilia
IMHO, the reason the alternate substances (vitamins, minerals, herbs, et al) remain unregulated is due to intense lobbying by the pharmaceutical industry. For every Senator, the pharms spend over $1.5 million in direct lobbying fees. Lord only knows how much is spent 'off the radar'.
By keeping doubt about the safety and efficacy of OTC treatments in the public arena, the pharmaceutical companies maintain their status as the conservative treatment strategy. The Germans very handily regulated vitamins herbs et al, so it can be easily done. It's not rocket science.
Lar
Posted by sjb on July 7, 2004, at 12:55:34
In reply to Re: Question for Larry Hoover » Cecilia, posted by Larry Hoover on July 1, 2004, at 9:57:29
Larry,
Would you happen to know if Chromium adversely affects endurance? As someone with a history of atypical depression, I read this report with great interest and started taking 600mcg this past weekend. My workouts have been kinda crappy this week and I'm wondering if the Chromium has anything to do with it. It's most likely due the overindulging on alcohol over the holiday weekend, or just coincidence, but I wanted to ask you anyway.
Thanks for all of your input. You have been a great resource.
Posted by Regis Harold on July 10, 2004, at 12:45:35
In reply to Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression, posted by Charm on June 11, 2004, at 11:24:42
I've been visiting this board for a long time, and it's taken me this long to get around to making this first post. My story, in short, is that I have been dealing with mood/energy issues for a long time. Every day for me is a battle against fatigue, brain fog, and a lack of motivation to do the things I really enjoy.
I had been wanting to take Chromium for a long time. I read about it a while back and I never got around to trying it until about a month ago.
I could feel a difference from the time I took my first 600mg dose of Chromium Polynicotinate. I was able to think more clearly, and I had more energy, even after eating -- which has always been a big problem for me. (Many times after a meal, even a small one, I get can so tired, sad, and unable to focus or concentrate that I want to crawl underneath my desk at work and hide until the end of the day). After taking chromium, I had more motivation to start or continue tasks, and I was more able to handle multiple tasks at once. I found myself becoming very talkative and energetic. However, it wasn't like drinking a lot of coffee. The energy wasn't a nervous or anxious energy, but was instead more focused.
Since then, the effects have dramatically decreased. After the first week, the same 600mg dose of chromium just didn't have the same effect on me. Now, even an 800mg dose doesn't really do a whole lot for me. I'm afraid of trying more, since chromium can be toxic in high doses.
I've been trying to figure out why the chromium pooped out, and so quickly. I haven't read a lot of anecdotal reports on chromium, so it's hard for me to determine whether or not this is something that is idiosyncratic to me in particular, or if people in general experience this while taking chromium.
Also, I know that nicotinic acid can influence mood and energy, so perhaps this is what caused that initial surge in energy?
Anyone have any thoughts, or would like to share their own experience with chromium?
Posted by KaraS on July 10, 2004, at 17:47:56
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression » Charm, posted by Regis Harold on July 10, 2004, at 12:45:35
That's discouraging. Chromium is on my list of things to try. I wonder if it would make any difference if you divided up the dose and took it three times a day instead of all at once. Did anything in your diet change from when you first got the good effect? Did you eat a lot more sugar or stop taking your other vitamins or anything like that? Are you hypoglycemic to begin with? Those are the people who are supposed to be helped the most with chromium.
Posted by Regis Harold on July 11, 2004, at 19:54:25
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression, posted by KaraS on July 10, 2004, at 17:47:56
> That's discouraging. Chromium is on my list of things to try. I wonder if it would make any difference if you divided up the dose and took it three times a day instead of all at once. Did anything in your diet change from when you first got the good effect? Did you eat a lot more sugar or stop taking your other vitamins or anything like that? Are you hypoglycemic to begin with? Those are the people who are supposed to be helped the most with chromium.
Kara, probably the only habit that changed drastically was that I started eating more while at work. Eating anything close to a fulfilling lunch during the day turned me into a zombie for the rest of the day. I guess that might indicate that I am hypoglycemic, but I haven't had a blood glucose test done yet. I plan on scheduling a battery of tests (blood glucose, thyroid, etc) in the next couple of weeks.
Although the chromium doesn't provide the same kick that it did in the first week, I can say that I'm no longer a useless zombie at work, and my rejection sensitivity is way down. I can still find it hard to motivate, focus, and concentrate at times, but I don't necessarily shrink away from social interaction. Kara, if you haven't tried it yet, I would say give it a whirl and see what it does for you. I plan on keeping it in my regimen. I might try dividing the doses to see what that does for me.
I was reading another post of yours in which you referred to "Flowers of Algernon." To be honest with you, that's exactly how this past month has been for me. Literally, right after my first dose of chromium, and a week thereafter, I felt on top of the world, and with enough energy to rule it, even. Now I'm back to figuring out how to get myself to "wake up" again.
Regis
Posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 22:55:22
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression, posted by Regis Harold on July 11, 2004, at 19:54:25
> > That's discouraging. Chromium is on my list of things to try. I wonder if it would make any difference if you divided up the dose and took it three times a day instead of all at once. Did anything in your diet change from when you first got the good effect? Did you eat a lot more sugar or stop taking your other vitamins or anything like that? Are you hypoglycemic to begin with? Those are the people who are supposed to be helped the most with chromium.
>
> Kara, probably the only habit that changed drastically was that I started eating more while at work. Eating anything close to a fulfilling lunch during the day turned me into a zombie for the rest of the day. I guess that might indicate that I am hypoglycemic, but I haven't had a blood glucose test done yet. I plan on scheduling a battery of tests (blood glucose, thyroid, etc) in the next couple of weeks.
>
> Although the chromium doesn't provide the same kick that it did in the first week, I can say that I'm no longer a useless zombie at work, and my rejection sensitivity is way down. I can still find it hard to motivate, focus, and concentrate at times, but I don't necessarily shrink away from social interaction. Kara, if you haven't tried it yet, I would say give it a whirl and see what it does for you. I plan on keeping it in my regimen. I might try dividing the doses to see what that does for me.
>
> I was reading another post of yours in which you referred to "Flowers of Algernon." To be honest with you, that's exactly how this past month has been for me. Literally, right after my first dose of chromium, and a week thereafter, I felt on top of the world, and with enough energy to rule it, even. Now I'm back to figuring out how to get myself to "wake up" again.
>
> RegisRegis,
I'm sorry to hear that you had that experience. It wasn't a complete washout though as you still have some benefit from the chromium - just not that unbelievable one you had the first week. Wish I could understand it all and tell you why.
I bet a lot of people here could appreciate the "Algernon" metaphor. To say that you've experienced "poop-out" just doesn't fully capture the emotional devastation.One thing I would suggest is that you read some of the postings here (or read up elsewhere) about thyroid problems before your doctor's appointment (if you haven't already) as many conventionally trained doctors only test for TSH levels and that just doesn't give the full picture. I was told I didn't have thyroid problems by my gp but I knew down deep that I really did as I had all of the symptoms. I begged for a referral to an endocrinologist. He tested me for Hashimoto's Thyroiditis (a simple antibody test) and it came up positive. It's a VERY common condition that goes undiagnosed in many cases.
What other meds and/or supplements are you taking?
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2004, at 8:02:02
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 22:55:22
> > Although the chromium doesn't provide the same kick that it did in the first week, I can say that I'm no longer a useless zombie at work, and my rejection sensitivity is way down. I can still find it hard to motivate, focus, and concentrate at times, but I don't necessarily shrink away from social interaction. Kara, if you haven't tried it yet, I would say give it a whirl and see what it does for you. I plan on keeping it in my regimen. I might try dividing the doses to see what that does for me.
> > Regis
>
> Regis,
> I'm sorry to hear that you had that experience. It wasn't a complete washout though as you still have some benefit from the chromium - just not that unbelievable one you had the first week. Wish I could understand it all and tell you why.
> Kara
>I've left both of your statements in, because my comments are more philosophical than scientific. About being human, I guess.
Regis, I think the effect weakened because your body realized it was no longer starving for chromium, and stood down from its desperate attempts to circumvent that deficiency by upregulating every system it could muster, to minimize the adverse effects of that lack. In a symbolic representation, your body regressed to the mean. It normalized on chromium biochemistry. That you're still not well suggests that there are other experiments yet to do, but chromium intake is a piece of your wellness puzzle. I don't think you need that high dose in perpetuity, either. No point going into chromium toxicity/poisoning due to chronic high intake.
And Kara, I think there's another factor at play. I think human brains have a special sense for novelty. Somehow that first experience is always the ne plus ultra (except for sex, heh). Heroin users speak of "chasing the dragon", their first rush, with ever-increasing doses. You gotta climb a higher mountain, next time, and so on. Base jumping is novelty-seeking gone wild. I just think it's being human.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2004, at 17:15:19
In reply to Re: Chromium Picolinate Study w/ Atypical Depression, posted by Regis Harold on July 11, 2004, at 19:54:25
> I was reading another post of yours in which you referred to "Flowers of Algernon."
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by KaraS on July 19, 2004, at 2:11:07
I had some more questions on this. I was going to order and I couldn't decide whether to get the polynicotinate form or GTF Chromium (as niacin–amino acid chelate) or Chromium Chelate (as amino acid chelate). Does anyone know which amino acid(s) are involved with these chelates? It doesn't say on the product descriptions. Does that even matter?
Posted by Regis Harold on July 19, 2004, at 21:55:52
In reply to What happened to the chromium thread?, posted by KaraS on July 19, 2004, at 2:11:07
Hi Kara,
I'm very curious about your post because you imply that chromium polynicotinate and GTF chromium are different. However, the Vitamin Shoppe brand of GTF chromium I use is in fact chromium polynicotinate. So GTF means glucose tolerance factor. However, what makes GTF chromium, GTF chromium? Is the labeling as GTF simply part of a marketing scheme?
I've been taking chromium polynicotinate for about six weeks now, and it's done me some good. Nothing like the first week I was taking it. I'm still trying to figure out whether it was the chromium or if it was the nicotinic acid that caused the effects I felt. I've tried niacinamide without any major change in mood and energy level. I wonder if I should try nicotinic acid in higher doses. Any suggestions?
Larry, as you so aptly put it, I think I am "chasing the dragon" here.
Posted by KaraS on July 19, 2004, at 23:14:13
In reply to Re: What happened to the chromium thread?, posted by Regis Harold on July 19, 2004, at 21:55:52
> Hi Kara,
>
> I'm very curious about your post because you imply that chromium polynicotinate and GTF chromium are different. However, the Vitamin Shoppe brand of GTF chromium I use is in fact chromium polynicotinate. So GTF means glucose tolerance factor. However, what makes GTF chromium, GTF chromium? Is the labeling as GTF simply part of a marketing scheme?
>My guess is that you're probably right about GTF being a marketing scheme because iHerb had GTF chromium that were in both the polynicotinate versions as well as amino chelate versions.
(I'll leave the nicotinic acid discussion for Larry.)> I've been taking chromium polynicotinate for about six weeks now, and it's done me some good. Nothing like the first week I was taking it. I'm still trying to figure out whether it was the chromium or if it was the nicotinic acid that caused the effects I felt. I've tried niacinamide without any major change in mood and energy level. I wonder if I should try nicotinic acid in higher doses. Any suggestions?
>
> Larry, as you so aptly put it, I think I am "chasing the dragon" here.
Posted by gabbix2 on July 21, 2004, at 1:55:42
In reply to What happened to the chromium thread?, posted by KaraS on July 19, 2004, at 2:11:07
I don't know if you still need this, here's a link to the Chromium thread, the board was archived. It's in the June 13th section
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040613/msgs/356535.html
Posted by KaraS on July 21, 2004, at 9:18:22
In reply to Re: What happened to the chromium thread? » KaraS, posted by gabbix2 on July 21, 2004, at 1:55:42
> I don't know if you still need this, here's a link to the Chromium thread, the board was archived. It's in the June 13th section
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040613/msgs/356535.html
Thanks.
Posted by sjb on July 30, 2004, at 8:26:01
In reply to Re: What happened to the chromium thread?, posted by KaraS on July 21, 2004, at 9:18:22
I've been tring Chromium Picolinate for over a month now and it has not helped my cravings. I'm taking 600mcg daily, as cited in the report, and will keep trying until I run out in a few more weeks. I think I would have seen some benefits by now, however. Oh, well. I've wasted more money on supplements. Got this batch cheap from Puritan's Pride.
Posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 0:00:38
In reply to No luck with the Chromium . . .yet, posted by sjb on July 30, 2004, at 8:26:01
> I've been tring Chromium Picolinate for over a month now and it has not helped my cravings. I'm taking 600mcg daily, as cited in the report, and will keep trying until I run out in a few more weeks. I think I would have seen some benefits by now, however. Oh, well. I've wasted more money on supplements. Got this batch cheap from Puritan's Pride.
It's not just for cravings. A lot of people feel happier and better when their blood sugar is more stable (which chromium is supposed to do). I've only taken it a couple of times so I don't know yet if it's going to help me at all. I'll start on it more regularly after I give something else a try (don't want to mix new things so I know what the effect of each is). Sorry it didn't help you at all.
Posted by sjb on August 2, 2004, at 10:32:01
In reply to Re: No luck with the Chromium . . .yet, posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 0:00:38
Thanks for the feedback. I hope it helps you. I haven't noticed the other benefits you mentioned either. I'm starting to slip into a depression period again and am so frustrated. I have to force myself to excercise, I crave cookies, cakes and pies ALL the time and SURPRISE, my weight is up. I try to eat normal, regular, healthy meals but am ravenous and crave this other stuff. I even dream about it.
I just feel so lost, alone and helpless. Wish I could just run away. Have a big social event this weekend and am embarrassed to go, don't want to be seen by anyone.
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