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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jai on November 25, 2003, at 20:03:21
I had someone ask me what is amino acid chelate? I could not answer her because I really didn't know what that really is all about. I got no handle on that one? I am not a chemist but I know some of you out there are. Can you help me?
Jai
Posted by Simian on November 25, 2003, at 20:26:58
In reply to amino acid chelate, what is it good for?, posted by Jai on November 25, 2003, at 20:03:21
I think its basically when a mineral is bonded to an amino acid so it can be absorbed more easily.
Posted by Jai on November 25, 2003, at 20:32:02
In reply to Re: amino acid chelate, what is it good for?, posted by Simian on November 25, 2003, at 20:26:58
I guess that's what I wonder: what amino acid? There are so a many...is it important? I know it hides the elemental mineral but is the absorbtion too much or just right. Are we fooling our bodies to absorb too much? If we absorb the mineral how does it know where to go?
Gosh that's a lot to ask.
Jai
Posted by Simian on November 25, 2003, at 22:38:08
In reply to what amino acid? or does it matter?, posted by Jai on November 25, 2003, at 20:32:02
I have no idea.
Although I have also worried about forcing the body to absorb minerals that it doesn't want.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 9:27:26
In reply to amino acid chelate, what is it good for?, posted by Jai on November 25, 2003, at 20:03:21
> I had someone ask me what is amino acid chelate? I could not answer her because I really didn't know what that really is all about. I got no handle on that one? I am not a chemist but I know some of you out there are. Can you help me?
> JaiOh, goodness. We are at risk of TMI here. (too much information)
The term is usually applied to certain types of mineral supplements, usually the more expensive ones, generally thought to provide a more bioavailable form of the mineral.
Minerals that you want to supplement are ions. For example, magnesium has twice lost electrons, and it is stable as the Mg++ ion. It will form salts with negatively charged ions, like chloride (Cl-), as an example. You'd need two chlorides to balance the charge on the magnesium, so mag chloride is MgCl2. Chloride likes to dissolve in water (consider sodium chloride), so mag chloride dissolves nicely.
Chelates also dissolve readily. A chelate is even more loosely bound to e.g. magnesium than is the chloride ion. The word chelate comes from the Greek chela, or claw. The idea here is that a single molecule (the chelating substance) grips the mineral ion multiple times (like a pincer). The mineral ions can get out of the pincer easily, in the stomach's acid environment.
What makes chelates unique is that you're really supplementing two (potentially) bio-active substances simultaneously. The mineral ion has physiological effects, but so do pure amino acids. There have been many discussions about the different mental effects of different magnesium chelates, such as mangesium taurate and magnesium glycinate. The differences arise from the chelating amino acids, taurine and glycine, not from the magnesium.
More questions welcome.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 9:32:12
In reply to Re: what amino acid? or does it matter?, posted by Simian on November 25, 2003, at 22:38:08
> I have no idea.
> Although I have also worried about forcing the body to absorb minerals that it doesn't want.You can get toxic doses of minerals, but your body knows what to do with what it is provided, so long as you stay within reasonable levels.
The RDA of a mineral is sort of analogous to the lower reasonable intake level (but there are flaws that I believe invalidate the RDA; it's too low). Then, at the other end, you have the UL, the upper limit of reasonable daily intake, usually set at about one half the NOAEL (no observeable adverse effects level). There is usually a very large dose-range between the RDA and the UL for minerals.
Mineral deficiency is really quite common in the US, even based on the flawed RDA.
Lar
Posted by Jai on November 27, 2003, at 9:55:18
In reply to Re: amino acid chelate, what is it good for? » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 9:27:26
> Oh, goodness. We are at risk of TMI here. (too much information)
>
my thoughts exactly
> The term is usually applied to certain types of mineral supplements, usually the more expensive ones, generally thought to provide a more bioavailable form of the mineral.
>
now that's the short answer and maybe enough for the customer....?
> Minerals that you want to supplement are ions. For example, magnesium has twice lost electrons, and it is stable as the Mg++ ion. It will form salts with negatively charged ions, like chloride (Cl-), as an example. You'd need two chlorides to balance the charge on the magnesium, so mag chloride is MgCl2. Chloride likes to dissolve in water (consider sodium chloride), so mag chloride dissolves nicely.
>
> Chelates also dissolve readily. A chelate is even more loosely bound to e.g. magnesium than is the chloride ion. The word chelate comes from the Greek chela, or claw.
The idea here is that a single molecule (the chelating substance) grips the mineral ion multiple times (like a pincer). The mineral ions can get out of the pincer easily, in the stomach's acid environment.
>
this is a great visual to remember ! But don't you want the mineral intact within the ion's pincers to get through the stomach's acid to the intestines villi?> What makes chelates unique is that you're really supplementing two (potentially) bio-active substances simultaneously. The mineral ion has physiological effects, but so do pure amino acids. There have been many discussions about the different mental effects of different magnesium chelates, such as mangesium taurate and magnesium glycinate. The differences arise from the chelating amino acids, taurine and glycine, not from the magnesium.
>
So is the idea that the chelating amino acids: taurine and glycine etc are okay for the long term intestinal process? What's in the chelated amino acid package? is it a bundle of all the amino acids?
Then they seperated them out and individuated them and attached them to the mineral as an advanced move? Because, as you said, this enhances the mineral experience. Why are the chelated amino acids easier on the digesting process in the long run.
Are my questions clear?
Jai
ps (nice to hear from you.)
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 10:17:10
In reply to I know the customer always looks irritated, posted by Jai on November 27, 2003, at 9:55:18
> > Oh, goodness. We are at risk of TMI here. (too much information)
> >
> my thoughts exactly> > The term is usually applied to certain types of mineral supplements, usually the more expensive ones, generally thought to provide a more bioavailable form of the mineral.
> >
> now that's the short answer and maybe enough for the customer....?You work in health food retail?
> > Minerals that you want to supplement are ions. For example, magnesium has twice lost electrons, and it is stable as the Mg++ ion. It will form salts with negatively charged ions, like chloride (Cl-), as an example. You'd need two chlorides to balance the charge on the magnesium, so mag chloride is MgCl2. Chloride likes to dissolve in water (consider sodium chloride), so mag chloride dissolves nicely.
> >
> > Chelates also dissolve readily. A chelate is even more loosely bound to e.g. magnesium than is the chloride ion. The word chelate comes from the Greek chela, or claw.
> The idea here is that a single molecule (the chelating substance) grips the mineral ion multiple times (like a pincer). The mineral ions can get out of the pincer easily, in the stomach's acid environment.> this is a great visual to remember !
The word came from the visual, actually.
> But don't you want the mineral intact within the ion's pincers to get through the stomach's acid to the intestines villi?
No. You want it free at some point. Dissolved. If it gets back in the pincers, uptake is reduced. It's a dynamic process, getting pinced and released, pinced and released.
> > What makes chelates unique is that you're really supplementing two (potentially) bio-active substances simultaneously. The mineral ion has physiological effects, but so do pure amino acids. There have been many discussions about the different mental effects of different magnesium chelates, such as mangesium taurate and magnesium glycinate. The differences arise from the chelating amino acids, taurine and glycine, not from the magnesium.
> So is the idea that the chelating amino acids: taurine and glycine etc are okay for the long term intestinal process?
Pure aminos have distinctive effects. They are not digested per se, and they are not likely to have digestive effects themselves because that is dose-related. You get very little in an amino chelate, as compared with say a purposeful dose of a pure amino.
> What's in the chelated amino acid package? is it a bundle of all the amino acids?
That's the hundred dollar question. If it (the label) doesn't say....it's anybody's guess.
My thinking is that the cheapest way to be able to make the label claim "amino acid chelate" is to use e.g. hydrolysed whey protein or soya protein. If that's the case, then you're going to get the effect of digested protein....a blend effect, not a pure effect.
> Then they seperated them out and individuated them and attached them to the mineral as an advanced move?
If it mentions a specific form, e.g. taurate, that is a specialized process, and you're going to pay extra for that. The attachment part automatically happens....the purification part is expensive.
> Because, as you said, this enhances the mineral experience. Why are the chelated amino acids easier on the digesting process in the long run.
They're more like food than other supplements are. Chemical salts are not normally part of the diet.
> Are my questions clear?
> JaiClear and reasonable.
> ps (nice to hear from you.)
:-)
Lar
Posted by Jai on November 27, 2003, at 10:37:32
In reply to Re: I know the customer always looks irritated » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2003, at 10:17:10
> You work in health food retail?
>
yup, a coop
> No. You want it free at some point. Dissolved. If it gets back in the pincers, uptake is reduced. It's a dynamic process, getting pinced and released, pinced and released.
>
so, lets say the mineral is calcium carbonate & magnesium. Then there is an attachment added. Negative +positive. Then you pop it into your mouth and swallow. It gets to your stomach....where the ions detach? or they go through the acids intact to the intestines and the waiting villi...then the aminos detach by desolving or just flushing into waste? You get the minerals into your blood stream? Happy happy...ya? :+)
I have worked this store for 11+ years and I have had that question posed to me for all 11+years. I remember after 9/11 I went to work and that day & a woman asked about minerals and amino acid chelation...I was too stunned (after watching the whole thing on TV) to go to work much less answer the question but I tried, I really did. So now I want to have something printed up that is simple, accurate and easy to read/understand.
thanks
Jai
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 1, 2003, at 6:55:16
In reply to retail store, posted by Jai on November 27, 2003, at 10:37:32
I'm sorry for not answering this, Jai. I missed it, over and over again.
> > No. You want it free at some point. Dissolved. If it gets back in the pincers, uptake is reduced. It's a dynamic process, getting pinced and released, pinced and released.
> >
> so, lets say the mineral is calcium carbonate & magnesium. Then there is an attachment added. Negative +positive. Then you pop it into your mouth and swallow. It gets to your stomach....where the ions detach?Yes, in theory. Interesting that you chose carbonates as your example. They dissolve quite poorly in water (they're the source of the gunk that collects inside your kettle), and only moderately better in acid. In fact, they both shouldn't even be said to dissolve in acid; they react with the acid to become more soluble in water. The reaction consumes the acid (leaving water), so any remaining carbonate is less soluble. The consumption of acid is so profound, we take these as antacids (as in Tums).
> or they go through the acids intact to the intestines and the waiting villi...
At some point, the mineral ion (called a cation) must be free, or the villi can do nothing with it.
> then the aminos detach by desolving or just flushing into waste?
You're mixing two processes (or have I?).
In the case of the aminos, the separation almost certainly occurs in the stomach, and is enhanced by acid. Aminos can pass through the stomach wall, directly into the blood, or further along the gut....so they just go. Little of the amino acid will end in waste....that would be wasteful from a biochemical standpoint. Once in the alkaline environment of the intestines, the cation may bind again with an amino acid, but I'd pretty much assume the cation is in a free state in the intestine.
> You get the minerals into your blood stream? Happy happy...ya? :+)
Yes, happy happy.
> I have worked this store for 11+ years and I have had that question posed to me for all 11+years.
We differ considerably, then. Hearing the same question more than once would have compelled me to find an answer, just for my own sanity.
> I remember after 9/11 I went to work and that day & a woman asked about minerals and amino acid chelation...I was too stunned (after watching the whole thing on TV) to go to work much less answer the question but I tried, I really did.
Oh, the WTC thing nearly cost me my sanity...
> So now I want to have something printed up that is simple, accurate and easy to read/understand.
> thanks
> JaiOnce I'm back on my feet, maybe I'll help you write something. It's gonna be a while, though.
Lar
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 1, 2003, at 7:58:34
In reply to Re: retail store » Jai, posted by Larry Hoover on December 1, 2003, at 6:55:16
> We differ considerably, then. Hearing the same question more than once would have compelled me to find an answer, just for my own sanity.
>
I have tried to get it down but sometimes I loose it and the answer gets muddled.
> Oh, the WTC thing nearly cost me my sanity...
>
Okay, at some point on the social babble site I'd really like to hear what happened to you and how it affected your sanity. When you are rested up and have some energy for the discussion....only if you want to discuss. See I can learn....> Once I'm back on my feet, maybe I'll help you write something. It's gonna be a while, though.
>
I can wait.... I am so touched that you would do that in the first place.
yours
Jai Narayan
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