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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 37 to 61 of 63. Go back in thread:
Posted by john1022 on October 27, 2003, at 13:00:11
In reply to John, Re: Piracetam is now available, posted by McPac on October 26, 2003, at 21:21:02
I have not tried trytophan yet. It may be my next step if all else fails. I am not too worried about taking the brand made for horses to be honest. Let me know if you have any luck with it! Take care
Posted by francesco on October 28, 2003, at 3:22:24
In reply to Re: ADD alternative strategies » Francesco , posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 0:37:54
I took 5 minutes ago my first l-tyrosine capsule.
I'm so excited ! I will keep you informed. the herborist said he doesn't sell vitamin b6 anymore ... I didn't ask him why ... do you have any idea about it ?
Posted by DSCH on October 28, 2003, at 10:15:46
In reply to Re: ADD alternative strategies » DSCH, posted by francesco on October 28, 2003, at 3:22:24
> I took 5 minutes ago my first l-tyrosine capsule.
Ironically, today I am starting an experiment. I am going OFF L-tyrosine and 5-HTP. See the TMG thread below for details.
> I'm so excited ! I will keep you informed. the herborist said he doesn't sell vitamin b6 anymore ... I didn't ask him why ... do you have any idea about it ?
Maybe he doesn't sell enough neat B6. You should find a multivitamin that gives you plenty (say 50 mg) of B6 in addition to C, and don't forget the other Bs.
Posted by Francesco on October 28, 2003, at 14:26:33
In reply to Re: ADD alternative strategies » francesco, posted by DSCH on October 28, 2003, at 10:15:46
I read the thread. Best wishes for your experiment (and for the site too ! I only visited it for few minutes but the graphic was cool !)
I took 500mg of tyrosine in the morning.
Pleased to say I found it works for me. I can't say anything more at the moment, because I have had troubles sleeping in the last days and so I don't know how it will work for me after having slept enough.but ... very big "but" ... my ability to read was greatly improved ... I'm not taking ginko anymore because I found it helping only with the energy level side (which is not a problem of mine at the moment). anyway if you have trouble on that side, you could consider it.
thanks a lot (and again) for having converted me to supplements. my psychiatrist was quite disappointed to discover I quit the Rit. he suggested via mail imiprammine + a mood stabilizer (if you question the treatment you're receveing they give you a mood stabilizer, no way ;-)
ok, sorry for the eventual mispellings (gotta go to sleep !) and ... which is the ratio to to add C + B6 ?
Posted by DSCH on October 28, 2003, at 22:28:44
In reply to you're DA man » DSCH, posted by Francesco on October 28, 2003, at 14:26:33
There's nothing that prevents you from trying out gingko plus tyrosine eventually if you want to. ;-)
Have you found a good multivitamin-mineral formula yet? I am sold on getting the whole smack: A, all the Bs, C, D, E, magnesium, calcium, zinc, etc..
Does the under-methylated physiological/psychological type as noted by Pfeiffer sound like you (see TMG thread below for link)? We have so many other things in common as it is. :-)
Posted by DSCH on October 29, 2003, at 0:16:20
In reply to Re: ADD alternative strategies, posted by tealady on October 24, 2003, at 3:08:58
> Would royal jelly would be one..or is that mostly B5? I haven't been able to get that for the last few years. I think there is a problem with bees in the past few years.
Some RJ info...
http://natural_products.almaleka.com/bproducts/rj/
Posted by tealady on October 29, 2003, at 4:17:25
In reply to Royal Jelly » tealady, posted by DSCH on October 29, 2003, at 0:16:20
Interesting.
Used to be able to get brown glass bottles with small straws of this stuff in the 80's. Seemed to be a good pick me up...exxy though
Local beekeeper didn't have any, that'd be the way to get it though.
Posted by Francesco on October 31, 2003, at 10:28:35
In reply to Re: you're DA man » Francesco , posted by DSCH on October 28, 2003, at 22:28:44
> Have you found a good multivitamin-mineral formula yet? I am sold on getting the whole smack: A, all the Bs, C, D, E, magnesium, calcium, zinc, etc..I'm taking Minervitam by BodySpring at the moment. I don't know if it's good or not cause I have not yet learned the criterion of goodness in thies area ;-) Why should I take a multivitamin-mineral complex ? I mean, it's because they help with ADHD sintomps or because of they help l-tyrosine to work or whatelse ? (I must write on the agenda to read something about supplements instaed of asking ;-)
Tyrosine is working very well (500 mg someday, 1000 mg some other). Why did you augment the dose to 3000 mg ? Did you find that the more you take the more it helps ?
> Does the under-methylated physiological/psychological type as noted by Pfeiffer sound like you (see TMG thread below for link)? We have so many other things in common as it is. :-)
ok, I'm going to read it and let you know : )
Posted by DSCH on October 31, 2003, at 15:09:26
In reply to Re: you're DA man » DSCH, posted by Francesco on October 31, 2003, at 10:28:35
>
> > Have you found a good multivitamin-mineral formula yet? I am sold on getting the whole smack: A, all the Bs, C, D, E, magnesium, calcium, zinc, etc..
>
> I'm taking Minervitam by BodySpring at the moment. I don't know if it's good or not cause I have not yet learned the criterion of goodness in thies area ;-) Why should I take a multivitamin-mineral complex ? I mean, it's because they help with ADHD sintomps or because of they help l-tyrosine to work or whatelse ? (I must write on the agenda to read something about supplements instaed of asking ;-)B6 and C are needed for the enzymatic activity that makes L-DOPA from L-tryosine, dopamine from L-DOPA, and then norepinepherine from dopamine.
http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_13.html
But lacking the others will end up causing other problems too.
> Tyrosine is working very well (500 mg someday, 1000 mg some other). Why did you augment the dose to 3000 mg ? Did you find that the more you take the more it helps ?
I had 1000 mg tablets and I needed to take them at least three times a day to keep the effect up. It was more a question of duration.
> > Does the under-methylated physiological/psychological type as noted by Pfeiffer sound like you (see TMG thread below for link)? We have so many other things in common as it is. :-)
>
> ok, I'm going to read it and let you know : )OK. :-)
Posted by Francesco on November 1, 2003, at 4:34:40
In reply to Re: you're DA man » Francesco , posted by DSCH on October 31, 2003, at 15:09:26
I find tyrosine very activating, maybe too much. I would like to try with less than 500mg, maybe I'll split the capsule. The strangest thing on earth was than yesterday two different persons within an hour told me that I was in a very good shape. I have never been told something like this in 28 years ! I find also that I eat much more since I'm on tyrosine. I'm not sure this will result in a weight gain, 'cause I'm also walking like a marathonet ;-) Have you experienced increased hunger on l-tyrosine ?
Posted by DSCH on November 1, 2003, at 10:00:18
In reply to tyrosine and hunger ? » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 1, 2003, at 4:34:40
> I find tyrosine very activating, maybe too much. I would like to try with less than 500mg, maybe I'll split the capsule. The strangest thing on earth was than yesterday two different persons within an hour told me that I was in a very good shape. I have never been told something like this in 28 years!
Have you lost fat already or is it that you are carrying yourself more 'purposefully'?
>I find also that I eat much more since I'm on tyrosine. I'm not sure this will result in a weight gain, 'cause I'm also walking like a marathonet ;-) Have you experienced increased hunger on l-tyrosine ?
I ate more (but less carbs) and walked more, so I was pinning that on diet and physical activity. For a while I was dropping a little over 2.5 pounds (1.1 kg) per week. I've been fluctuating around 235 pounds (107 kg) for about a month now.
Two things I think are smart purchase are a blood pressure monitor and a fat-reading weight scale. Just this morning I will get readings from both.
Posted by Francesco on November 1, 2003, at 13:59:09
In reply to Re: tyrosine and hunger ? » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 1, 2003, at 10:00:18
> Have you lost fat already or is it that you are carrying yourself more 'purposefully'?I didn't lost fat but I was undoubtly more "purposefully". I have noticed also that tyrosine hardens my personality. Maybe it's exactly what helps but once again I don't know if I like it. Another thing that scares me is the very quick response I had. I have read on some post that this can mean I have some NE metabolization defect, or something like this.
At the moment therefore I'm a little afraid of it but I think it's to early to quit it (today I didn't take it to think about 'clearly' about what to do). moreover ... did you experience cold at your extremities while on it ? for me, it was almost unbearable.
Posted by Francesco on November 1, 2003, at 14:31:33
In reply to Re: tyrosine and hunger ? » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 1, 2003, at 13:59:09
I forgot to mention the positive sides.
Yesterday evening I went to a party and I acted like the amphytrion. I have never ever been like that. I was able to improvise a blues song with a lot of people listening to me : o I said hi to all the people at the party which I never do and talked with almost everyone. It's maybe the most amazing change I got from psychotropic substances and this big change makes me a little anxious.another issue is that I've experienced yesterday a couple of "dumb distraction" episodes. I took the wrong bus and on the bus I met a gut I knew of whom I couldn't recall the name. It was very embarassing. I had similar episodes with Wellbutrin and Ritalin but I don't want to generalize. I think I could do much better on tyrosine if I would be able to avoid coffe.
Unfortunately I find myself preparing expresso and drink it before realizing what I'm doing. I would like to avoid coffe to know for sure what's dued to L-tyrosine and what is dued to a possible interaction.
Moreover I find myself to be less sharp on tyrosine. I mean, sharpness raises also from the capacity to disconnect from what's happening and on tyrosine I am much more connected.
Like on Ritalin I act also like a business-like person, thinking about 'facts' and what to do next. It's weird, that's the only thing I can say. Above all, it seems that I like my being ADHD and that I would like to be very emotional and sensitive as I am and at the same time concentrated, and the combo is maybe impossible.
One question for DA man. You mentioned that my focus problem can be dued to NE and not to dopamine but NE is a precursor of Dopamine. What I'm trying to say is: taking tyrosine am I also increasing dopamine levels ?
Posted by Francesco on November 2, 2003, at 1:22:38
In reply to Re: tyrosine and hunger ? » Francesco , posted by Francesco on November 1, 2003, at 14:31:33
Posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 5:13:12
In reply to Re: tyrosine and hunger ? » Francesco , posted by Francesco on November 1, 2003, at 14:31:33
> One question for DA man. You mentioned that my focus problem can be dued to NE and not to dopamine but NE is a precursor of Dopamine. What I'm trying to say is: taking tyrosine am I also increasing dopamine levels ?
Do you actually READ the sources I bring up for you? ;-)
The answer is here...
http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_13.htmlShort form answer for the ADD afflicted: ;-)
L-tyrosine -(crosses BBB)-> L-DOPA -> dopamine -> norepinephrine -> epinephrineI would recommend staying away from caffiene entirely. It's a crap stimulant in my book because it is a cerebral vasoconstictor and diuretic.
Posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 5:23:59
In reply to Re: tyrosine and hunger ? » Francesco , posted by Francesco on November 1, 2003, at 14:31:33
You might want to try taking L-tryptophan or 5-HTP in the evening and then L-tyrosine in the morning to see if some of the undesirable effects go away. You might be skewing too much towards dopamine and norepinepherine synthesis at the expense of serotonin if you keep up L-tyrosine by itself. You may want to ask Larry about a group of folks calling themselves NeuroResearch.
Just so you know, at this point, I believe trimethylglycine and magnesium are my "magic bullets" backed up by full spectrum vitamin and mineral supplementation and high protein/low carb diet (which I was not very faithful to these past few days!). :-p So I am no longer researching amino acid therapy.
Posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 9:47:03
In reply to Re: tyrosine and hunger ? » Francesco , posted by Francesco on November 1, 2003, at 14:31:33
> another issue is that I've experienced yesterday a couple of "dumb distraction" episodes. I took the wrong bus and on the bus I met a gut I knew of whom I couldn't recall the name. It was very embarassing. I had similar episodes with Wellbutrin and Ritalin but I don't want to generalize. I think I could do much better on tyrosine if I would be able to avoid coffe.
Here's my thinking: I would keep going on the tyrosine, quit caffinated beverages (i.e. find substitutes), and then try out these things (one at a time)...
A) 5-HTP in the evening (should cut down on cravings, stabilze mood, and promote sleep)
B) Piracetam plus one or more of these: choline, phosphatidylcholine, CDP-choline (improve memory)
I've found out piracetam is available in Chicago! I'm going to go check it out today and start it once I feel like I have TMG+Mg "dialed in".
Posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 14:37:25
In reply to Piracetam is now available, posted by jparsell82 on October 25, 2003, at 10:58:44
Sherwyn's in Chicago (Lincoln Park area) stocks piracetam. They also definately have idebenone, picamilon, pyritinol; and galantamine too if I am remembering correctly.
I bought some piracetam for a trial I will start soon, but not immediately.
More info...
http://www.sherwyns.com
Posted by francesco on November 2, 2003, at 15:23:18
In reply to Tyrosine » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 5:13:12
> Do you actually READ the sources I bring up for you? ;-)lol
Nothing to say : ) I read it, but you know, mind was somewhere else> Short form answer for the ADD afflicted: ;-)
> L-tyrosine -(crosses BBB)-> L-DOPA -> dopamine -> norepinephrine -> epinephrineok. now it's clear : )
is there a way to "pump up" norepinephrine without touching dopamine ? (theoretical question)
does all this mean that I will have for ex. more dopamine in the morning and more noripineprhrine in the afternoon or this model is completely inadequate ?
> I would recommend staying away from caffiene entirely. It's a crap stimulant in my book because it is a cerebral vasoconstictor and diuretic.I know it's a crap stimulant because after drinking several cups I feel bit manic and absolutely unfunctional. Unfortunately I'm quite addicted to it and I don't know how to quit it. Being Adhd quitting it for a day doesn't mean anything: the next day I can forget that I quit it ! Having an alternative to take when I crave for it could be a good trick anyway ... I often look at myself as a Pavlov's dog (even if a bit stupid in remembering rewards and punishment ...)
Thanks for the hint of tryptophane. I will consider it. Another thing that bores me is that I would like to try L-tyrosine in smaller doses ... I read somewhere the suggestion to start from 50 mg and then augment it. But I have only the 500 mg capsules and I don't wanna make a mess in the kitchen ;-)
Posted by francesco on November 2, 2003, at 15:43:24
In reply to Re: tyrosine and hunger ? » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 9:47:03
I have read somewhere on the net that high levels of serotonin are related with perfectionism. This is a good explaination of some of my anafranil problems (the OCPD-thing like). I wonder if I will be able to study without being that perfectionist (it's the only way I know so far).
Posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 16:13:22
In reply to Re: Tyrosine, posted by francesco on November 2, 2003, at 15:23:18
> > Do you actually READ the sources I bring up for you? ;-)
>
> lol
> Nothing to say : ) I read it, but you know, mind was somewhere elseLately you don't strike me as being as centered and coherent as you were on Anafranil, to tell the truth.
> > Short form answer for the ADD afflicted: ;-)
> > L-tyrosine -(crosses BBB)-> L-DOPA -> dopamine -> norepinephrine -> epinephrine
>
> ok. now it's clear : )
> is there a way to "pump up" norepinephrine without touching dopamine ? (theoretical question)Probably not, if you are limited to precursor loading. But then you said you have long been rather ill-coordinated, which strikes me as possibly a sign of a deficient state.
> does all this mean that I will have for ex. more dopamine in the morning and more noripineprhrine in the afternoon or this model is completely inadequate ?
I rather doubt it would be that simple.
> > I would recommend staying away from caffiene entirely. It's a crap stimulant in my book because it is a cerebral vasoconstictor and diuretic.
>
> I know it's a crap stimulant because after drinking several cups I feel bit manic and absolutely unfunctional. Unfortunately I'm quite addicted to it and I don't know how to quit it. Being Adhd quitting it for a day doesn't mean anything: the next day I can forget that I quit it ! Having an alternative to take when I crave for it could be a good trick anyway ... I often look at myself as a Pavlov's dog (even if a bit stupid in remembering rewards and punishment ...)If it is compulsive, then I wouldn't be the one to help you out with that. Perhaps someone over on the substance use board could suggest something helpful.
> Thanks for the hint of tryptophane. I will consider it. Another thing that bores me is that I would like to try L-tyrosine in smaller doses ... I read somewhere the suggestion to start from 50 mg and then augment it. But I have only the 500 mg capsules and I don't wanna make a mess in the kitchen ;-)
I don't know. I would think there would be a number of places to get supplements around Rome. If that fails, order online.
Posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 16:17:22
In reply to one more thing » DSCH, posted by francesco on November 2, 2003, at 15:43:24
> I have read somewhere on the net that high levels of serotonin are related with perfectionism. This is a good explaination of some of my anafranil problems (the OCPD-thing like). I wonder if I will be able to study without being that perfectionist (it's the only way I know so far).
Don't believe everything you read. Particularly what I post too. ;-)
OCD and OC personality, has always been linked to LOW serotonin in what I have read.
What's interesting is that you have a paradoxical reaction to some meds that have 5-HT reuptake effects (others not IIRC). What that means if you try 5-HTP, I have no idea.
Posted by Francesco on November 3, 2003, at 13:33:59
In reply to Re: Tyrosine » francesco , posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 16:13:22
> Lately you don't strike me as being as centered and coherent as you were on Anafranil, to tell the truth.
I know. Lately anyway I have not been taking anything. This afternoon I took Gingo Biloba, and I found again that it helps with impulse-control and focus in a way similar to Anafranil. I noticed also that my handwriting improves when I'm on it. I'm studying scientific graphology (tree-years-course) and it's quite easy to see the effect of the med on the handwriting.
> Probably not, if you are limited to precursor loading. But then you said you have long been rather ill-coordinated, which strikes me as possibly a sign of a deficient state.
Yeah, my coordination improves a lot also with tyrosine, so you should be right about it. I use Winning Eleven (Playstation) as a test of my coordination level. You can't figure out how wonderful my goals were when I was on tyrosine ;-)
I didn't abandon the idea of taking it but I want to check it again when I won't be obliged to interact with people. Next time I'll avoid coffee to separate their effects.> I rather doubt it would be that simple.
Yeah, I know. But it would be interesting to know if assuming tyrosine the level of dopamine/NE is improved at the same during or if first you have an increase in dopamine and then in noriphineprine. This would result in different experiences.
> If it is compulsive, then I wouldn't be the one to help you out with that. Perhaps someone over on the substance use board could suggest something helpful.
I'm trying to diminuish the amount of coffe I'm taking. It's not easy anyway.
> I don't know. I would think there would be a number of places to get supplements around Rome. If that fails, order online.Thanks. I will ask to my herborist.
Posted by Francesco on November 3, 2003, at 13:54:00
In reply to Re: one more thing » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 16:17:22
> Don't believe everything you read. Particularly what I post too. ;-)
Never had this kind of problem, generally speaking of course ;-)
> OCD and OC personality, has always been linked to LOW serotonin in what I have read.OCD is quite different from OC personality. OC personality likes to be perfectionist (and he's quite functional above all). OCD doesn't. Therefore it can be that the underlying mechanisms are quite different (and perfectionims anyway is only a sintom of OC personality, not the whole).
High serotonin. I have read that anorexic people have high serotonin level (never been able to check this empirically anyway ;-)
Anorexic are also known to be very perfectionist and to have low (if any) sex drive. This fits with the high seronin hyphotesis. Does it sound for you ?> What's interesting is that you have a paradoxical reaction to some meds that have 5-HT reuptake effects (others not IIRC). What that means if you try 5-HTP, I have no idea.
I will try it and let you know ;-)
Posted by DSCH on November 3, 2003, at 14:12:25
In reply to Re: one more thing » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 3, 2003, at 13:54:00
> > Don't believe everything you read. Particularly what I post too. ;-)
>
> Never had this kind of problem, generally speaking of course ;-)
>
> > OCD and OC personality, has always been linked to LOW serotonin in what I have read.
>
> OCD is quite different from OC personality. OC personality likes to be perfectionist (and he's quite functional above all). OCD doesn't. Therefore it can be that the underlying mechanisms are quite different (and perfectionims anyway is only a sintom of OC personality, not the whole).
>
> High serotonin. I have read that anorexic people have high serotonin level (never been able to check this empirically anyway ;-)
> Anorexic are also known to be very perfectionist and to have low (if any) sex drive. This fits with the high seronin hyphotesis. Does it sound for you ?OC personality supposedly responds to the SSRIs like full blown OCD does, which led Kramer in "Listening to Prozac" to believe it represents a moderate position on a continuum of psychological territory.
Anyway this is all talk and clinical ancedote. For once I would like to see empirical physical data. Is it possible to determine the concentration of serotonin available in a synaptic gap non-invasively with a living person? I don't believe that is possible at the present. All we have is measures of spatially-related metabolic function via fMRI, PET, and SPECT.
> > What's interesting is that you have a paradoxical reaction to some meds that have 5-HT reuptake effects (others not IIRC). What that means if you try 5-HTP, I have no idea.
>
> I will try it and let you know ;-)OK. Good luck. :-)
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