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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by slinky on October 24, 2003, at 20:23:00
MAGNESIUM
Dr. Seastrunk says that magnesium should not be taken with Neurontin at all because it competes for the receptors in the brain that Neurontin is attempting to reach.
However, Parke-Davis and CFS specialists prescribing Neurontin suggest only that the two drugs be separated by two hours.
Since magnesium does have antacid properties, taking the two together may immediately interfere with Neurontin being correctly absorbed in the stomach. This also applies to prescription medication that lessens gastric motility and acidity as well as all other antacids.
Because magnesium levels are often low in people with CFS and FMS, many of us feel that it is very important to continue taking magnesium. By scheduling the magnesium between doses of Neurontin (preferably once a day and as far apart as possible), hopefully there will be minimum interference with Neurontin.
-------------------------------------------
I've been taking them at same time--oops
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2003, at 21:10:31
In reply to magnesium and neurontin, posted by slinky on October 24, 2003, at 20:23:00
Slinky, that is a very encouraging post. To know that magnesium competes for receptors with neurontin. I've been on the search for a magnesium supplement, but so far have just found magnesium oxide, which Larry says is not the best form.
Thanks!
Posted by slinky on October 24, 2003, at 22:35:21
In reply to Re: magnesium and neurontin » slinky, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2003, at 21:10:31
Hi Dinah..
My magnesuim is oxide--but also says vegetable source magnesium stearate???
Posted by Dinah on October 25, 2003, at 10:01:32
In reply to Re: magnesium and neurontin » Dinah, posted by slinky on October 24, 2003, at 22:35:21
Here's the extent of my knowledge:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031003/msgs/271537.html
Posted by slinky on October 26, 2003, at 11:16:37
In reply to Re: magnesium and neurontin » slinky, posted by Dinah on October 25, 2003, at 10:01:32
I think I'd prefer to take magnesium than lithium or carbmazipine that the doc keeps trying to give me...need to find out more though.
I pop so many suppliments, some days I don't eat so stop taking them or I can't be motivated. Been in bed last 2 months.
Every suppliment pill is HUGE --don't know how they make the multi-vitamins and mineral pill so small.
I do know it helps though but I'm not eating healthy lately.
Oh , and omega 3 makes me angry??
Posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 19:25:33
In reply to Re: magnesium and neurontin » slinky, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2003, at 21:10:31
Carlson's brand of magnesium glycinate, which is supposed to be a better-absorbable form of magnesium, is good. The lowest price I've seen is at The Vitamin Shoppe.
George Eby, on his site, "Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium Treatment", http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html is recommending the Cardiovascular Research brand of magnesium taurate these days instead of magnesium glycinate.
He says,
"The following magnesium compounds have sufficiently low stability that they offer very high absorption and are well tolerated.
Magnesium acetate, chloride, citrate, gluconate, glycinate, lactate, malate, succinate, sulfate, tartrate and taurate are all very good, ionizable sources of magnesium. Intravenously, hospitals give magnesium sulfate. Magnesium chloride would be best, but it is very hygroscopic and difficult to properly package. On the other hand, magnesium oxide, magnesium hydroxide and magnesium carbonate are totally useless because they are too tightly bound together for the stomach acid to dissociate into ionic form. ... ON A PRECAUTIONARY NOTE, two amino acid chelates of magnesium (magnesium aspartate, magnesium glutamate) MUST be avoided in treating depression. Each of these amino acid complexes of magnesium has been reported to worsen depression. Aspartate and glutamate act as neurotransmitters in the brain and retina by facilitating the transmission of from neuron to neuron. Too much aspartate or glutamate in the brain kills certain neurons by allowing the influx of too much calcium into the cells. This influx triggers excessive amounts of free radicals, which kill the cells. The neural cell damage that can be caused by excessive aspartate and glutamate is why they are referred to as "excitotoxins." They "excite" or stimulate the neural cells to death. Aspartate is a principal ingredient in the maligned Aspartame sweetener."
He also says, in comparing mag glycinate with taurate,
"Very interestingly, taurine and glycine exist in the presence of a time- and dose-dependent exchange mechanism. After administering glycine to rats, researchers discovered that it produced a notable suppression of hepatic taurine content in the liver. Yet, this taurine decrease was not found in other taurine-rich organs such as the brain, heart or kidney. The mechanism for hepatic concentration of these two amino acids serves to alter liver concentrations of these amino acids without adversely affecting the rest of the body. The significance of this is very high, because as glycine goes up and taurine goes down in the liver, bile production is impaired and intestinal absorption of magnesium becomes greatly impaired, helping to explain why diarrhea resulting from magnesium taurate is essentially non-existant. In some people sensitive to this reaction, magnesium glycinate would be contraindicated, while magnesium taurate would be very helpful."
If I could afford it, I would be trying magnesium taurate. The Vitamin Shoppe also has a decent price on that.
My experience is that I like Carlson's Magnesium Glycinate. Mg citrate is harder for me to use in higher doses without diarrhea. Magnesium malate feels pretty good too (and is supposed to be especially helpful to those with fibromyalgia).
> Slinky, that is a very encouraging post. To know that magnesium competes for receptors with neurontin. I've been on the search for a magnesium supplement, but so far have just found magnesium oxide, which Larry says is not the best form.
>
> Thanks!
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2003, at 7:32:49
In reply to Re: magnesium form/brand » Dinah, posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 19:25:33
The Vitamin Shoppe sounds oddly familiar, so perhaps we have one.
Posted by JLx on October 27, 2003, at 15:57:51
In reply to Thanks. I'll check around. » JLx, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2003, at 7:32:49
> The Vitamin Shoppe sounds oddly familiar, so perhaps we have one.
They're online or you can get a catalogue sent to you too.
Posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 9:50:17
In reply to Re: magnesium form/brand » Dinah, posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 19:25:33
Posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 21:39:26
In reply to Re: magnesium form/brand » Dinah, posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 19:25:33
Is calcium carbonate as bad off as magnesium carbonate?
Posted by JLx on November 3, 2003, at 12:19:51
In reply to JLx, how about calcium?, posted by DSCH on November 2, 2003, at 21:39:26
> Is calcium carbonate as bad off as magnesium carbonate?
You mean this line from Eby's site?
"On the other hand, magnesium oxide, magnesium hydroxide and magnesium carbonate are totally useless because they are too tightly bound together for the stomach acid to dissociate into ionic form."
I don't know. Sounds like a question for Larry. :)
Posted by DSCH on November 3, 2003, at 12:27:54
In reply to Re: Question for Larry Hoover » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 3, 2003, at 12:19:51
> > Is calcium carbonate as bad off as magnesium carbonate?
>
> You mean this line from Eby's site?
>
> "On the other hand, magnesium oxide, magnesium hydroxide and magnesium carbonate are totally useless because they are too tightly bound together for the stomach acid to dissociate into ionic form."
>
> I don't know. Sounds like a question for Larry. :)IIRC, magnesium has the capacity for strong mixed bonding as MgO is quite refractory. None of the refractory ceramics I can remember had calcium as the main cation (indeed Ca is something more likely to be in a flux IIRC). But I don't know if this is at all relevant to bioavailabity or not.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 3, 2003, at 15:04:01
In reply to Re: Question for Larry Hoover » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 3, 2003, at 12:19:51
> > Is calcium carbonate as bad off as magnesium carbonate?
>
> You mean this line from Eby's site?
>
> "On the other hand, magnesium oxide, magnesium hydroxide and magnesium carbonate are totally useless because they are too tightly bound together for the stomach acid to dissociate into ionic form."
>
> I don't know. Sounds like a question for Larry. :)
Eby is a little too loose with his generalizations. Mg(OH)2 is milk of magnesia. It does depend on acid for solubility, as does the carbonate, but it certainly does dissolve to some extent. If it didn't dissolve, it wouldn't be a good antacid (same with the carbonate). Moreover, it's already ionized.Lar.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 3, 2003, at 15:17:17
In reply to Re: Question for Larry Hoover: calcium carbonate, posted by DSCH on November 3, 2003, at 12:27:54
> IIRC, magnesium has the capacity for strong mixed bonding as MgO is quite refractory. None of the refractory ceramics I can remember had calcium as the main cation (indeed Ca is something more likely to be in a flux IIRC). But I don't know if this is at all relevant to bioavailabity or not.This is a little off topic, but what the heck....
The equivalent to MgO, CaO, is also known as quicklime, or caustic lime. It reacts with water (called slaking), to form Ca(OH)2, and releases copious heat in the process.
I don't know why MgO is different, but it is. It is virtually insoluble in water (0.00062g/100g water), and poorly soluble even in strongly acidic solutions.
J Am Coll Nutr. 1990 Feb;9(1):48-55.Magnesium bioavailability from magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide.
Lindberg JS, Zobitz MM, Poindexter JR, Pak CY.
Center for Mineral Metabolism and Clinical Research, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas 75235.
This study compared magnesium oxide and magnesium citrate with respect to in vitro solubility and in vivo gastrointestinal absorbability. The solubility of 25 mmol magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide was examined in vitro in solutions containing varying amounts of hydrochloric acid (0-24.2 mEq) in 300 ml distilled water intended to mimic achlorhydric to peak acid secretory states. Magnesium oxide was virtually insoluble in water and only 43% soluble in simulated peak acid secretion (24.2 mEq hydrochloric acid/300 ml). Magnesium citrate had high solubility even in water (55%) and was substantially more soluble than magnesium oxide in all states of acid secretion. Reprecipitation of magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide did not occur when the filtrates from the solubility studies were titrated to pH 6 and 7 to stimulate pancreatic bicarbonate secretion. Approximately 65% of magnesium citrate was complexed as soluble magnesium citrate, whereas magnesium complexation was not present in the magnesium oxide system. Magnesium absorption from the two magnesium salts was measured in vivo in normal volunteers by assessing the rise in urinary magnesium following oral magnesium load. The increment in urinary magnesium following magnesium citrate load (25 mmol) was significantly higher than that obtained from magnesium oxide load (during 4 hours post-load, 0.22 vs 0.006 mg/mg creatinine, p less than 0.05; during second 2 hours post-load, 0.035 vs 0.008 mg/mg creatinine, p less than 0.05). Thus, magnesium citrate was more soluble and bioavailable than magnesium oxide.
Posted by Jamal Spelling on September 20, 2007, at 3:14:50
In reply to Re: Question for Larry Hoover: calcium carbonate » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on November 3, 2003, at 15:17:17
>
> > IIRC, magnesium has the capacity for strong mixed bonding as MgO is quite refractory. None of the refractory ceramics I can remember had calcium as the main cation (indeed Ca is something more likely to be in a flux IIRC). But I don't know if this is at all relevant to bioavailabity or not.
>
> This is a little off topic, but what the heck....
>
> The equivalent to MgO, CaO, is also known as quicklime, or caustic lime. It reacts with water (called slaking), to form Ca(OH)2, and releases copious heat in the process.
>
> I don't know why MgO is different, but it is. It is virtually insoluble in water (0.00062g/100g water), and poorly soluble even in strongly acidic solutions.
>
>
> J Am Coll Nutr. 1990 Feb;9(1):48-55.
>
> Magnesium bioavailability from magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide.
>
> Lindberg JS, Zobitz MM, Poindexter JR, Pak CY.
>
> Center for Mineral Metabolism and Clinical Research, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas 75235.
>
> This study compared magnesium oxide and magnesium citrate with respect to in vitro solubility and in vivo gastrointestinal absorbability. The solubility of 25 mmol magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide was examined in vitro in solutions containing varying amounts of hydrochloric acid (0-24.2 mEq) in 300 ml distilled water intended to mimic achlorhydric to peak acid secretory states. Magnesium oxide was virtually insoluble in water and only 43% soluble in simulated peak acid secretion (24.2 mEq hydrochloric acid/300 ml). Magnesium citrate had high solubility even in water (55%) and was substantially more soluble than magnesium oxide in all states of acid secretion. Reprecipitation of magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide did not occur when the filtrates from the solubility studies were titrated to pH 6 and 7 to stimulate pancreatic bicarbonate secretion. Approximately 65% of magnesium citrate was complexed as soluble magnesium citrate, whereas magnesium complexation was not present in the magnesium oxide system. Magnesium absorption from the two magnesium salts was measured in vivo in normal volunteers by assessing the rise in urinary magnesium following oral magnesium load. The increment in urinary magnesium following magnesium citrate load (25 mmol) was significantly higher than that obtained from magnesium oxide load (during 4 hours post-load, 0.22 vs 0.006 mg/mg creatinine, p less than 0.05; during second 2 hours post-load, 0.035 vs 0.008 mg/mg creatinine, p less than 0.05). Thus, magnesium citrate was more soluble and bioavailable than magnesium oxide.
>
>I would like to address the last two sentences in the above abstract. It claims that because magnesium citrate produces greater levels of urinary magnesium than does magnesium oxide, therefore magnesium citrate has greater bio-availability. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Surely the fact that magnesium oxide ingestion results in lower levels of urinary magnesium implies that magnesium oxide is better absorbed in the body, rather than being excreted in the urine?
Jamal
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