![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by John1022 on October 11, 2003, at 16:42:42
I have read a couple of different posts about taking 5HTP along with vitiman B6. Some of the posts say to absolutely not take B6 with 5HTP, while others say it is definitely important to as B6 helps in the creation of seretonin.
Is there a definite answer to this?
What is the reasoning of not taking vitamin B6 with 5HTP?
5HTP seems to really help with my type of depression, whereas I have had some pretty severe reactions to other AD's.
Should I worry about build up of 5HTP in my blood? Some say it is not able to cross over to the brain. That is definitely not true as I without a doubt feel benificial affects hours after taking it.
Should I look into taking L-Tyrosine along with 5HTP to avoid tolerance?
What about looking into Carbida as a prescription while using 5HTP because of the high blood level of seretonin issue?
Will either Tyrosine or Carbida make the 5HTP less effective in any way?
Thanks for any suggestions
Posted by John1022 on October 11, 2003, at 17:06:55
In reply to 5HTP with Vitamin B6 or not?, posted by John1022 on October 11, 2003, at 16:42:42
I found this, which was an interesting read. I would love to hear what others think about these questions:
WHATEVER HAPPENED TO L-TRYPTOPHAN?
L-tryptophan is an amino acid which converts to serotonin in our bodies & brains. Though safely used by millions for years, it was removed from the market when some people had severe adverse reactions to a contaminated batch from Japan. It was widely researched & even prescribed by non-holistically oriented doctors. This was a great threat to the new class of serotonin-related drugs about to be unleashed on the market place at that time.
L-tryptophan has never been restated to an over-the-counter status, but has been available by presciption from compounding pharmacies.
WHAT IS THE CONNECTION TO SEROTONIN?
L-tryptophan converts to serotonin like so:
L-tryptophan is acted upon by an enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase to become 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP). This is acted upon by the enzyme tryptophan decarboxylase, plus pyridoxal-5-phospate (the active form of vitamin B6) to become serotonin (5-HT) standing for 5-hydroxytyramine. Other vitamins & minerals also act as co-factors in this conversion.
Serotonin is related to disorders of consumption (alcoholism, bulimia, anorexia), mood, sleep, anxiety, thought(OCD), learning, memory, sexual activity, aggression, & suicidality. No wonder the race to manipulate serotonin levels with drugs!
In it's hey day L-tryptophan was extensively used to help with chronic pain, insomnia, anxiety, depression, agitation, mania, to decrease food cravings, etc. It was useful for most. About 1% of people would have a "paradoxical" reaction producing an opposite response to that desired. Then, of course, they would not continue taking it.
WHAT ABOUT 5-HYDROXY-TRYPTOPHAN? (5-HTP)
Because L-tryptophan was so effective, researchers & individuals began using 5-HTP in its place & with the same beneficial results. This was allowed over-the-counter as there had been no reported problems with it. You can be sure if there were it would quickly be removed because now it can be seen as a new competitor to the serotonin enhancing drugs.
Now along comes static & confusion about 5HTP. I find that interesting. Some warnings about 5HTP were published in a Life Extension Foundation Newsletter. While I often agreee with their opinions, I disagree with their advice to use the drug "Carbidopa"(a drug with potential serious side effects) when using 5HTP. I further disagree with their preference you avoid vitamin B6 when using 5HTP.
WHY DO THEY SUGGEST CARBIDOPA?
The Carbidopa is a drug given for Parkinson's Disease. The theory is since the Carbidopa & a B6 deficiency will interfere with the above mentioned decarboxylase enzyme, less 5HTP will convert to serotonin in the peripheral blood leaving more to go to the brain to convert to serotonin.
They suggest the danger of a body serotonin overload from the 5HTP without carbidopa & with vitamin B6. I say, show me the clinical cases, & show me the proof in the literature.
Before the serotonin enhancing drugs we did not read about problems with serotonin overload, except for unusual cases of what is called Carcinoid Syndrome (the presence of multiple serotonin producing tumors in the body).
Let's address this practically & clinically, not by theory. Thousands if not millions have by now used 5HTP(without the added Carbidopa), yet I have not seen, heard of, nor could I find in the literature any report of serotonin excess damage or "serotonin syndrome" caused by 5HTP or L-tryptophan.
This syndrome is a nasty cluster of neurological symptoms which began to appear in the literature in the late 80's. This was caused by forced artificially high levels of serotonin from drugs-rarely a single drug, usually a combination of drugs impacting the serotonin system
When using natural agent as precursors, the body has it's own regulatory pathways for conversion, metabolism, or degradation of all our food. When enough 5HTP has converted to serotonin at any one time, ther is a feedback loop to decrease the production or divert it down another pathway. The body has not has thousands of years to evolve mechanisms for clearing the high serotonin levels which may be induced by drugs.
SO WHAT IS RECOMMENDED?
In my practice I frequently order serum serotonin levels & when I do so I usually see below normal levels. Granted I am measuring this on those who are depressed, agitated, anxious, or insomniac. You can ask your Dr to order a serum serotonin, if you wish.
As you may have noted by now, it is my opinion & the opinion of other amino acid experts with whom I have consulted that there is not need to take the drug Carbidopa when using the natural product 5HTP. You rather defeat your purpose, don't you? You will know relatively soon whether it is benefiting you. In the research 5HTP has been found to have similiar results to L-tryptophan.
The dosage of L-tryptophan in the research was 500-6000 mg. 100 mg of 5HTP is equivalent to 500 mg L-tryptophan. I usually suggest starting with only 1-2 of the 100 mg size daily & adjusting as needed. It is generally best to use no more that a total of 6 daily in 2-3 divided doses, gradually increasing to this dose if needed. Usually a lower dose is effective.
It is best to take 5HTP at bedtime, unless you are using it for pain, anxiety, agitation, to decrease food or alcohol craving, or for mania. For more about 5HTP you can search it at http://www.thewayup.com Also be sure to read more about pyridoxal-5-phosphate.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2003, at 6:52:05
In reply to 5HTP with Vitamin B6 or not?, posted by John1022 on October 11, 2003, at 16:42:42
> I have read a couple of different posts about taking 5HTP along with vitiman B6. Some of the posts say to absolutely not take B6 with 5HTP, while others say it is definitely important to as B6 helps in the creation of seretonin.
>
> Is there a definite answer to this?No, as people will always find different conclusions from the same facts.
> What is the reasoning of not taking vitamin B6 with 5HTP?
B-6 is the vitamin cofactor that is essential for the enzyme that converts 5-HTP to serotonin. The "problem" that people are trying to control is an attempt to control the formation of serotonin outside the brain. 5-HTP is not normally found floating around in the blood-stream, as it would be if you took oral 5-HTP. The enzyme that does the conversion to serotonin is found throughout the body (it does other things too), so serotonin will be produced anywhere in the body that the enzyme, 5-HTP, and B-6 happen to find each other. The idea that you can limit the reaction by artificially creating a B-6 deficiency is moronic, IMHO. If it works peripherally, it will do the same thing in the brain. And every other reaction that requires B-6 to work will also be affected, as well. Might as well restrict oxygen consumption, while you're at it. <joking>
Serotonin is a potent regulatory chemical, and excess serotonin, or serotonin in places it's not normally found, *could* lead to adverse effects (they have not been proven to occur, but there are valid concerns that they might occur).
> 5HTP seems to really help with my type of depression, whereas I have had some pretty severe reactions to other AD's.That's pretty good information to have. You keep doing what works, ya know?
> Should I worry about build up of 5HTP in my blood?
As you have some experience with taking 5-HTP already, I wouldn't worry too much about adverse effects popping up now, that wouldn't already have occurred before this time.
Serotonin is a major regulatory of peristalsis, the rhythmic contractions of the digestive tract that propel food from your stomach to your bowel. There is more serotonin in your digestive tract than in your entire brain. So, taking 5-HTP can mess with your digestion, for example, but if it hasn't had that effect, I wouldn't worry about it. There was some concern raised by one particular doctor, about the possibility of heart valve damage from serotonin, something that is seen in serotonin-secreting cancer called carcinoid, but I think that would have been seen by now (millions of people taking 5-HTP, no link to heart valve damage so far).
> Some say it is not able to cross over to the brain. That is definitely not true as I without a doubt feel benificial affects hours after taking it.
5-HTP apparently crosses the blood-brain barrier without requiring the assistance of transporters, unlike tryptophan.
> Should I look into taking L-Tyrosine along with 5HTP to avoid tolerance?Quite the contrary, in some people's opinion. From my understanding, tyrosine potentiates 5-HTP's effects. And, I can't quite conceive of how tolerance to 5-HTP could occur.
> What about looking into Carbida as a prescription while using 5HTP because of the high blood level of seretonin issue?Carbidopa is not a drug I would take without a compelling medical reason. IMHO, if you don't have Parkinson's, stay the heck away from it.
> Will either Tyrosine or Carbida make the 5HTP less effective in any way?In my understanding, both substances enhance the psychoactive effects of 5-HTP.
> Thanks for any suggestionsMore questions welcomed,
Lar
Posted by McPac on October 12, 2003, at 19:07:19
In reply to Re: 5HTP with Vitamin B6 or not?, posted by John1022 on October 11, 2003, at 17:06:55
QUICK...where are the serotonin police!!!!
lol
Posted by john1022 on October 13, 2003, at 20:51:40
In reply to Re: 5HTP with Vitamin B6 or not? » John1022, posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2003, at 6:52:05
Thanks Larry. You are the man
Posted by john1022 on October 15, 2003, at 19:03:59
In reply to Re: 5HTP with Vitamin B6 or not? » John1022, posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2003, at 6:52:05
Hi Larry,
Thanks for the response.
I just wanted to make sure I understood your explanation correctly:
> Should I look into taking L-Tyrosine along with 5HTP to avoid tolerance?
"Quite the contrary, in some people's opinion. From my understanding, tyrosine potentiates 5-HTP's effects. And, I can't quite conceive of how tolerance to 5-HTP could occur."
By this do you mean that Tyrosine increases 5HTP's effect?
> Will either Tyrosine or Carbida make the 5HTP less effective in any way?
"In my understanding, both substances enhance the psychoactive effects of 5-HTP."
Sorry if I am not understanding this correctly, my mind is a little cloudy right now.
So do you think Tyrosine should be used with 5HTP?
Will it increase it's effectiveness or make it less effective?
Thanks again
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 17, 2003, at 9:44:55
In reply to Re: another question Larry-thanks, posted by john1022 on October 15, 2003, at 19:03:59
> Hi Larry,
>
> Thanks for the response.
>
> I just wanted to make sure I understood your explanation correctly:
>
> > Should I look into taking L-Tyrosine along with 5HTP to avoid tolerance?
>
> "Quite the contrary, in some people's opinion. From my understanding, tyrosine potentiates 5-HTP's effects. And, I can't quite conceive of how tolerance to 5-HTP could occur."
>
> By this do you mean that Tyrosine increases 5HTP's effect?If anything, that's what it would do. I cannot think of a way that it would oppose the effect.
> > Will either Tyrosine or Carbida make the 5HTP less effective in any way?
>
> "In my understanding, both substances enhance the psychoactive effects of 5-HTP."
>
> Sorry if I am not understanding this correctly, my mind is a little cloudy right now.
>
> So do you think Tyrosine should be used with 5HTP?Yes. No reason not to, and it may help.
> Will it increase it's effectiveness or make it less effective?
>
> Thanks againI hope it's clear now. If not, try more questions, OK?
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.