![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 222. Go back in thread:
Posted by garnet71 on February 22, 2009, at 13:14:27
In reply to a new beginning..., posted by twinleaf on February 21, 2009, at 15:46:43
Wow, Twinleaf, that was a very articulate and thoughtful assessment. You are a very focused writer, and you seem like you have a really good head on your shoulders.
I agree with what SeldomSeen has said--maintaining a balance through moderation is perhaps the key.
While it is objective to say, for example, you shouldn't criticize the person and instead, criticise the concept (while trying to remain constructive); in doing so, determining whether or not someone is acting "uncivil" ends up being subjective some of the time. What I don't understand is the stance towards political discussions here, but it is a common attitude in the U.S. If you have certain beliefs about politics in terms of policy/international relations, discussing them is nothing against any other person who disagrees; one is criticizing the policy--not the individual person. There are so many angles from which to structure our government policies, and censorship of such things is very dangerous. Not that this forum would have an impact, but it is a hugely important ideal by virtue itself. Political discourse should be encouraged in all forms-in all places-at all times. See, that's my subjective opinion. That's a peeve of mine about the civic nature of the U.S. We are just harming ourselves--our society-with creating a taboo in discussing politics--big time. Political discourse is no different, in my view, with agreeing or disagreeing about what medications or therapies to use. Many of us criticize therapies and medications--in doing so, we are not criticizing the person who thinks such things are right for them.
We all form our morals, beliefs, opinions based upon our education, experience, and cognitive types; that in itself leads to subjectivity. Moderators, while seemingly trying to remain objective and non-partial, also derive their conclusions from what I just stated.
There are also forum dynamics to contend with, similar to what you'd find in the workplace and other groups. I've seen some forum drama here, but it's to be expected. I do think people can hurt others in internet forums through being passive agressive and via ambient means--and it probably goes unnoticed by moderators. This, in my opinion, is worse than someone saying something 'mean' to another, partly because what is done is unnoticed by those other than the person being hurt. It can lead to feelings of powerlessness and isolation.
I don't like the idea of censorship, but I don't know the alternative. I just wanted to let you know that was a great post and to wish you well for your new beginning.
Cheers
Posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 14:55:18
In reply to Re: a new beginning... » twinleaf, posted by Zeba on February 22, 2009, at 0:49:39
Hi Zeba! It's so nice to hear from you. Like you, I am also in three-times-a-week therapy now; it's wonderful to hear that things are going so well for you. I also especially like the every-other-day format- its very intensive, but not as overwhelming as four or five days a week can be. You get to step back on those "free days" and see that you are actually getting somewhere!
I always feel so bad for you about the cognitive problems that occurred because of the ECT. I know they are the kind that only show up on sensitive neuropsychological testing, but still, it's just a shame. I hope you will find them slowly but surely melting away as you go on living fully and using your fine brain.
I think you mentioned some time ago that you were taking Parnate- how encouraging if you are finding that you no longer have to!
I also appreciate your mentioning that your therapist also did not want you to participate in Babble. When therapists, particularly analytically-trained ones, say this, I think it is extremely important. Mine has never given me a single bit of advice or direction about anything in my life, other than this.
Posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:03:55
In reply to Okay, I may have one crazy idea., posted by seldomseen on February 22, 2009, at 10:16:34
I appreciate all of your thoughtful responses, and creative ideas. I actually agree with almost everything you have said- that it's important to balance the needs of the one and the many, that therapy is not supposed to occur here, and that escalating time-length for blocks appears to have a punitive aspect to it. I was just exploring, from my own experiences, what it feels like to have gone from a poster in good standing from 2002 to 2008 (not even a PCB) to someone who has been blocked three times within six months. All of these blocks, while appropriate under the present guidelines, were the result of my standing up for a principle I believed in- either the right to support and offer understanding and background for another poster who was blocked while in a personal crisis, or the right to protest publicly when I have been insulted or put down publicly. A "civility buddy" would probably not be able to help very much in these situations, other than to tell me not to express these views. Having participated in Babble for such a long time, I feel that, for posters like me, the problem is that the civility guidelines are now being administered in a way that is much more stringent and severe than they were a few years ago. If you look through a bit of the Psychology archives from several years ago, I think you'll see what I mean. There was a warmth and flexibility then which is no longer present. PCBs and blocks were much rarer, and were given for outright hostile attacks and extremely inappropriate language- things everyone felt were appropriate and fair. This is a very long way from one of my recent blocks, which was given because, in urging understanding and compassion for SSSS (now Happy CT), I quoted her as saying that she had stresses in her personal life which included receiving a "hurtful e-mail from a friend." My block was given because quoting Happy in that manner might lead the author of the offensive e-mail to feel put down. I do not participate in chat, babble-mail or e-mail with anyone here, and only realized later that the person who wrote Happy the hurtful e-mail was probably a fellow babbler, and that others may have known who the person was. To me, while my block may have been strictly speaking fair, it completely overlooked the fact that I didn't know who she was, didn't mean her any harm whatsoever, and only used the fact of her e-mail to marshall support for giving Happy more time to deal with the stresses she was facing. This extreme emphasis on tiny details over overall intent is as if I had spent an hour lovingly brushing and combing my dog's long silky hair only to be banned from doing so for two weeks because I had missed removing a single tiny deer tick that I didn't see.
A very important issue, which no-one has yet addressed, is that our therapists have begun to consider Babble detrimental to several of us. If there is one thing to consider, this is it. A mental health forum which therapists do not want their patients/clients to participate in is by definition a disaster.
As to the question of Psychology functioning as therapy, I know it is not supposed to. I was pointing out the ways that I believe it does function that way- and was trying to emphasize the transference aspects which I have noticed there- the heightened love and appreciation, the disappointment, the hurt and pain- all these seemed intensified over what one might expect.
Posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:27:00
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea. » seldomseen, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2009, at 12:20:28
I'm not against the idea of civility buddies at all, but I think that is more for people having difficulty expressing an idea in an appropriate manner. I am talking about something different. I would like for there to be good ways to stand up for the principles one believes in- the right to support a fellow Babbler, and the right to protest personal criticisms publicly (just as publicly as they were given). These were taken for granted in the Babble of several years ago, but have been steadily eroded away- in my opinion by the overly strict application of the civility guidelines, which seem to be administered now without thought to the context. I don't think the deputies have any choice but to follow the guidelines to the letter; Dr. Bob, as the administrator, is the only one with the authority to look at each overall situation and decide whether or not to take any action. I do not know whether Dr. Bob has any interest in moderating the guidelines so that their effect is seen as more benign and fair, but I am bringing up this situation- as I see it- in the hope of finding out.
Several very good therapists, whose patients/clients are doing well- Zeba's, Happy's and mine- no longer want us to participate here. I think this is a very alarming development. If there is going to be any reason at all for Babble to continue as a mental health forum, it has to find a way to be helpful, rather than destructive to its members.
Posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:45:03
In reply to Re: a new beginning... » twinleaf, posted by garnet71 on February 22, 2009, at 13:14:27
Thanks for your post. I haven't been following what has been happening on Politics too closely, so I'm not too up on what's been happening there. I got the impression that posters could not express political views freely, even if they were civil, because others who had differing views might feel put down.
There is something about applying civility guidelines in this way which makes me feel that Babble is functioning as though the Declaration of Independence had not yet been written- nor even the ideas in the Magna Carta or those of the ancient Greek philosophers.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 17:09:16
In reply to Re: a new beginning... » garnet71, posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:45:03
> Thanks for your post. I haven't been following what has been happening on Politics too closely, so I'm not too up on what's been happening there. I got the impression that posters could not express political views freely, even if they were civil, because others who had differing views might feel put down.
>
> There is something about applying civility guidelines in this way which makes me feel that Babble is functioning as though the Declaration of Independence had not yet been written- nor even the ideas in the Magna Carta or those of the ancient Greek philosophers.
You wrote,[...others..might feel put down...]
I am unsure as to what in your thinking constitutes a statement that could lead one to feel put down. Could you list criteria here in your thinking that could be used to determine if a statement could lead one to feel put down?
Lou
Posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 17:53:26
In reply to Lou's request for criteria-putduck » twinleaf, posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 17:09:16
I'm sorry, Lou. I really can't express myself any more clearly than I just have. I would be very interested in an exchange of ideas with you, but I would need you to express some ideas, thoughts and feelings of your own for that to happen.
Would you consider putting aside a request for "lists of criteria which I use in order to decide whether I feel someone has been put down" in favor of sharing your own ideas about this topic? I think that would enrich our dialogue a great deal.
Posted by Sigismund on February 22, 2009, at 18:52:45
In reply to Re: Lou's request for criteria-putduck » Lou Pilder, posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 17:53:26
I have to think quite hard to have the foggiest of what a criterion is.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 20:07:31
In reply to Re: Lou's request for criteria-putduck, posted by Sigismund on February 22, 2009, at 18:52:45
> I have to think quite hard to have the foggiest of what a criterion is.
Sigismund,
Criteria are what one uses as {a test} to make a determination.
So there could be a test to use to determine if a statement could lead one to feel put down?
If you were testing to see if a statement could lead one to feel put down, could you post here what would you use in your test, {the criteria}, to determine that?
Lou
Posted by fayeroe on February 22, 2009, at 20:17:46
In reply to Re: a new beginning... » garnet71, posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:45:03
> Thanks for your post. I haven't been following what has been happening on Politics too closely, so I'm not too up on what's been happening there. I got the impression that posters could not express political views freely, even if they were civil, because others who had differing views might feel put down.
You hit the nail on the head..I sense that the Politics board is going to be eliminated. For what? I have no idea. That within itself is extremely frustrating to me. I think that we are very civil towards one another. I guess it is in how you feel/think/believe/observe civility.
>
> There is something about applying civility guidelines in this way which makes me feel that Babble is functioning as though the Declaration of Independence had not yet been written- nor even the ideas in the Magna Carta or those of the ancient Greek philosophers.I was told three years ago to stay off of Babble. Recently my Pdoc suggested that I leave and "not look back".
Posted by Sigismund on February 22, 2009, at 20:55:03
In reply to Lou's reply-testing foraduk » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 20:07:31
>If you were testing to see if a statement could lead one to feel put down, could you post here what would you use in your test, {the criteria}, to determine that?
I don't know that I could think of one, Lou, apart from the effect the statement would have on me and apart from asking people whether or not they felt put down by the statement.
Posted by Zeba on February 22, 2009, at 21:29:45
In reply to civility buddies..., posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:27:00
I don't want to start posting again, but yes my analyst doesn't give me advise either except to suggest that it might be best not to post here due to what he thought was a rather destructive experience for me with this site. I know I felt people and me included were blocked at times for reasons I could not fathom. It seemed to me that blocks were oftn subjective, though not always.
Babble seems a bit archaic to me anymore. I would not feel comfortable posting about my therapy or other personl things except for very, very generally. There are some good people here, and unfortunately during a period of time I alienated myself with some people thoguh not necessarily on babble. I was in a bad place at the time and much more vulnerable myself. Unfortunately I felt Babble could be rather destructive too. For me it was like setting myself up for abuse--it had that flavor to it. It was sort of like "be careful what you say or do or you might be punished," and then again you might be punished anyway. That is how it felt for me. For me it felt like there was always someone out there, either Bob or a Deputy to say you were out of line for whatever reason. For me it felt very destructive.
Twinleaf, yes, I used to be on Parnate, and I am so happy to be off of meds. Tonight I had pizza and a beer. I had not had a beer in three years, I think, maybe longer.
It is odd that some therapists seem to view the experience here as destructive for their patients/clients. they work with us regularly and know us as persons with out strengths and weaknesses and know when to say something and when to be silent.
Zeba
Posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:37:30
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea. » seldomseen, posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:03:55
I disagree that the rules are more stringent now. I think they are more lax.
I got blocked a few years ago for saying I thought it might be fun to jump off the CN tower. I was just kind of being dark.
Plus I think I got blocked for asking if Celexa was the drug that was dangerous to OD on. I put Celexa in a codied form but provided a key.
Anyways, I think the rules and blockings are much more lax now. With the new blocking formula it now takes into consideration the length of good behaviour, before it was just double the block length everytime no matter what. I really like the blocking formula now. I forget who come up with the equation, but it's genius.
Posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:43:51
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea., posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:37:30
https://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060111/msgs/601660.html
Check this out: I was blocked for 4 weeks a few years a go.
Posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:54:28
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea., posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:37:30
Hmmm...seems like my memory is wrong. I didn't even say it was fun.
See, the rules are way more lax now.
Posted by Neal on February 23, 2009, at 1:25:50
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea., posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:54:28
This is not just any old board. It's for people with a life-threatening illness. Dr Bob long ago used to personally monitor the board. People complained about "censorship". He then tried the "hands off" approach but that didn't prevent really big blow-ups and flame-wars from breaking out. The board almost didn't survive. I know I left - too much to take.
Then come later people who say, "try this" etc. Bob's tried a lot of things and they've been found wanting. There are people who come here who have suicidal thoughts - that's serious, serious, business.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2009, at 4:54:53
In reply to Re: Lou's request for criteria-putduck » Lou Pilder, posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 17:53:26
> I'm sorry, Lou. I really can't express myself any more clearly than I just have. I would be very interested in an exchange of ideas with you, but I would need you to express some ideas, thoughts and feelings of your own for that to happen.
>
> Would you consider putting aside a request for "lists of criteria which I use in order to decide whether I feel someone has been put down" in favor of sharing your own ideas about this topic? I think that would enrich our dialogue a great deal.Twinleaf,
You wrote,[...express..ideas..of your own...sharing your own ideas...].
There are outstanding requests from me to Mr Hsiung here concerning as to what in his thinking are the criteria that he uses here to determine if a statement could lead a person to feel put down. Here are links to some of my requests for clarification and such to him that I am awaiting a response to. If you could go through the posts in the threads that the link brings up, could you see if there could be a basis for discussion?
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080313/msgs/821127.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080313/msgs/821666.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2009, at 5:40:33
In reply to Lou's reply-outstn » twinleaf, posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2009, at 4:54:53
> > I'm sorry, Lou. I really can't express myself any more clearly than I just have. I would be very interested in an exchange of ideas with you, but I would need you to express some ideas, thoughts and feelings of your own for that to happen.
> >
> > Would you consider putting aside a request for "lists of criteria which I use in order to decide whether I feel someone has been put down" in favor of sharing your own ideas about this topic? I think that would enrich our dialogue a great deal.
>
> Twinleaf,
> You wrote,[...express..ideas..of your own...sharing your own ideas...].
> There are outstanding requests from me to Mr Hsiung here concerning as to what in his thinking are the criteria that he uses here to determine if a statement could lead a person to feel put down. Here are links to some of my requests for clarification and such to him that I am awaiting a response to. If you could go through the posts in the threads that the link brings up, could you see if there could be a basis for discussion?
> Lou
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080313/msgs/821127.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080313/msgs/821666.htmltwinleaf,
Here are some links to posts that bring up threads that I think could be brought into the discussion here by reading the posts in the threads.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20070702/msgs/776479.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20070304/msgs/742595.html
Posted by Partlycloudy on February 23, 2009, at 11:20:40
In reply to Re: civility buddies... » twinleaf, posted by Zeba on February 22, 2009, at 21:29:45
>
> It is odd that some therapists seem to view the experience here as destructive for their patients/clients. they work with us regularly and know us as persons with out strengths and weaknesses and know when to say something and when to be silent.
>
> ZebaMy therapist does not want me posting and participating here. I no longer tell her about the angst I put myself through in continuing to do so, and I'm just trying to wean myself off. It's not easy after having making this a part of my life for so long, and having made so many IRL friends through the boards. It's greatly expanded my world - just sometimes, not always in a positive way.
I'm pretty sad about the experience overall, actually. It's not what I had hoped it would become, not at all.
pc
Posted by twinleaf on February 23, 2009, at 16:30:49
In reply to Lou's reply to twinleaf-tupstn?, posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2009, at 5:40:33
I'm sorry, once again, Lou. As I mentioned, I can't make "lists of criteria that I use in order to decide whether someone has been put down", and I also cannot spend time looking up old threads of yours to Dr. Bob to see if there is a "basis for discussion" in them.
I believe there is always a basis for discussion- the basis is that the topic is important to someone. It would be wonderful to see you actually discussing something you care about here on the boards
Posted by twinleaf on February 23, 2009, at 16:51:17
In reply to Re: civility buddies..., posted by Partlycloudy on February 23, 2009, at 11:20:40
I'm very sad to learn that, Partly. You went much further than I did, and actually made some IRL friends- that makes deciding not to participate a lot harder.
I have been wondering why so many therapists, including yours, mine, Zeba's and Happy's and undoubtedly others, don't want us posting and forming relationships here. Perhaps it's because they see that we have all gotten hurt to a much greater degree than we do in real life. We don't really know anyone here as well as we think we do, and our hopes and desires may fill in the gaps too much, and thus set us up for rejection and disappointment.
I have been posting here again in the hope that, if nothing else, Dr. Bob and the deputies would review how the civility guidelines are administered and discuss the emotional effect they are having. I would think they would all take very seriously how many therapists are advising against participation in Babble. I would think that Dr. Bob would care a great deal not to become the physician-administrator of a mental health forum widely considered to be harmful or destructive to its' members mental health.
Perhaps not, though.
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2009, at 18:15:23
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea. » seldomseen, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2009, at 12:20:28
He's not an analyst, of course. And he's quite fond of giving me advice.
He does have training in community building, and he is not unfailingly approving of Babble's administration. Rather particularly, as is probably to be expected, around Dr. Bob's management of deputies.
The only time he's actually told me I ought to leave was over Dr. Bob's management of deputies, since he's backed away from being an on board presence and left deputies to be the Administrative face on the board, with all that entails in terms of poster reactions.
And of course in any relationship that I am not required by duty and commitment to maintain, he would like me to periodically assess whether the benefits outweigh the costs overall. And apply that old Ann Landers rule. If the costs to me of Babble outweigh the benefits, and it is likely to be a permanent situation, he would encourage me to leave. I make that assessment on a regular basis.
He has suggested, and even ordered, that I walk away from Babble for a while when I was overly distressed. Because really, when I get too distressed, the best thing for me is to step away and gain some distance.
But aside from that, he likes Babble and totally supports my participation here and always has. I've been horrendously distressed here over the years, more than in real life. Both because I make myself more vulnerable here, and because the anonymity of the internet *does* increase transference. Dr. Bob once commented on my telling him that with his customary amusing style. But if I try to paraphrase him, I'm sure I'd mess it up somehow and misrepresent something. But in short, Dr. Bob was aware of this possibility.
My therapist saw this as an opportunity. Just as transference in the therapy room was a microcosm of my relationships with others, my reactions here on Babble were an even greater source of insight into my customary responses and ways of thinking. I'd bring in sheafs of posts from others and my responses, and talk ad nauseum about what happened and how I responded and why. The printouts allowed him to actually see this rather than rely on my reports. And he would, with his admirable patience, manage to support me in my intent, while pointing out that I might be coming across in a way I did not intend, problem solve with me about ways I could express myself better. He managed to totally support me in my pain, while pointing out other possible interpretations of what I found hurtful, or what feelings the other poster might have been having, or what might have prompted the entire exchange.
In my caped crusader days, I was wont to try to swoop in and protect those who were fragile and vulnerable. My therapist totally supported my intent, and he understood all too well the disempowerment I felt myself in middle school and how it shaped my current interactions. But he'd point out those times when he didn't think my desire to help was best served by my actions. He spoke often of the drama triangle, although not in the same perjorative way that it sounds when I look it up online. My therapist has a wonderful quality of being able to explain things in a totally nonjudgmental way.
He never blamed me, and he always supported me, but he widened my perspective.
I rejected what he offered quite a bit at first. I was hurt. Ruptures and repairs had to be sorted through. But now I find myself thinking of things in the same way he'd patiently walk through them with me long ago.
He sees Babble as a wonderful resource, not only to me, but to me in therapy. An extension of the work we do in therapy, with concrete examples for him to work with. Just as the therapeutic relationship is a here and now relationship where he can see exactly what happens, so is Babble.
This isn't in reply to anything in particular. Just that if therapist opinion of Babble is being discussed, I thought I'd add my own therapist's opinion.
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 23, 2009, at 21:39:04
In reply to looking up threads..., posted by twinleaf on February 23, 2009, at 16:30:49
My T is one who doesn't want me on here, but it is hard to give up something that has been in my life daily for several years. But there comes a time when you have to say no to the hurt, where the hurt outweighs the benefit, just like any relationship really.
I do regret trying to bring the online world into my real world. I also see how it has also segregated Babble a lot.
When I was in those babble groups who met outside IRL, too many people are put down who are not there, and even though on line we are not allowed to do so, those rules don't follow through in real life meetings sometimes.
Now that I am on the outs I know, because I hear what has been said about me. (it does get around). But I have seen how certain individuals have been singled out during these get togethers, and I am embarrassed to be part of that, because the truth gets twisted so much about those people. But then everyone pretends all is well.
Well it isn't..... grudges are kept... even if based on untrue facts...and that spills through on Babble. Sometimes when you read posts you wonder why someone is upset, but one doesn't see the entire picture, because it isn't all on line.
Babble is like the outside world, you can get hurt, and you really need to watch who you trust.But as Dr. Bob says on his site, don't necessarily believe everything you hear. This SO TRUE. You also have to know who actually you are dealing with online, and remember lies will bite you in the butt eventually.
My T actually had to tell "look you are not actually dealing with someone who is all that mentally healthy at the time, so don't allow them to define who you are."
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 23, 2009, at 21:55:20
In reply to Re: looking up threads..., posted by HappyChaiTea on February 23, 2009, at 21:39:04
In fact the only babbler I have meet in person who hasn't been put down or talked negatively during these meetings is All Done.
But every single one of the Babblers I have met, some time during that meeting, something bad was said about them at one point or another while they were not in the room. I hated this and it included those who weren't in the meeting too.
I just don't have time for such stuff, I am way too old for stuff like this, that is why I no longer plan on ever going to a babbler meeting.
It is sad too because people bare their pain and souls on here, only for that info to be used against them.Maybe it is just my age, but I don't need drama anymore. You have to know how to be a friend, in order to have real friends.
I think sometimes the online world gives us a false sense of security and allows us to be less restrictive in what we say to others, which builds false sense of friendships. I know I learned my lesson. Babble just don't mean as much to me anymore, my real life gives me what Babble used to, social interaction.
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 9:12:10
In reply to Re: looking up threads..., posted by HappyChaiTea on February 23, 2009, at 21:55:20
I shouldn't have posted in the above 2 posts. Even if it is true, true isn't always the best option for here, because it can be uncivil too.
Sorry about my blatant honesty which is probably uncivil.
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