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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by joslynn on July 2, 2006, at 4:52:09
In reply to Re: For Michael 83 and Dinah » happyflower, posted by Michael83 on June 27, 2006, at 23:30:16
I don't know if I am cured or not cured. I know that since being on meds, doing therapy and going to 12-step groups to deal with growing up with an alcoholic family, I am emotionally healthier now. Life is better, my choices are better, I don't take everything so personally and I have expanded and taken more risks. At this point, it doesn't matter much to me whether I consider myself cured or not cured. I feel healthy overall.
Just an aside...my understanding is that the poster Bowtie 64 is a personal coach who posts on this site to drum up business. I don't understand why this is allowed, but if you are not aware, you should be. He pops on from time to time talking about "paradigms" and saying why therapy is self-indulgent, then he eventuall will reveal the URL of his personal web site promoting his coaching business. At least, that has been my observation.
I don't care if I get a PBC for this. I think it's unethical to use this site to promote one's one personal coaching business. People here are hurting, suggestible and vulnerable.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2006, at 9:58:43
In reply to Re: For Michael 83 and Dinah » Michael83, posted by joslynn on June 30, 2006, at 12:03:20
> I think it's unethical to use this site to promote one's one personal coaching business. People here are hurting, suggestible and vulnerable.
At the same time, they might be interested, others here can help them evaluate it, and the person with the business might benefit from the feedback...
Bob
Posted by MidnightBlue on July 7, 2006, at 13:58:20
In reply to Re: promoting one's business, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2006, at 9:58:43
Dr. Bob,
I respectfully disagree. One of the main advantages of this site is there are no "ads" pushing a particular medication or therapy. Individuals might recommend something, but that is all it is, an individual's recommendation not a medical opinion.
MidnightBlue
> > I think it's unethical to use this site to promote one's one personal coaching business. People here are hurting, suggestible and vulnerable.
>
> At the same time, they might be interested, others here can help them evaluate it, and the person with the business might benefit from the feedback...
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2006, at 11:52:02
In reply to Re: promoting one's business » Dr. Bob, posted by MidnightBlue on July 7, 2006, at 13:58:20
> > > I think it's unethical to use this site to promote one's one personal coaching business.
>
> Individuals might recommend something, but that is all it is, an individual's recommendation not a medical opinion.But if someone's promoting their business, isn't that just their recommendation?
Bob
Posted by MidnightBlue on July 9, 2006, at 18:08:22
In reply to Re: promoting one's business, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2006, at 11:52:02
Dr. Bob,
Not really. I don't charge for my terrific advice! :-)
MidnightBlue
> > > > I think it's unethical to use this site to promote one's one personal coaching business.
> >
> > Individuals might recommend something, but that is all it is, an individual's recommendation not a medical opinion.
>
> But if someone's promoting their business, isn't that just their recommendation?
>
> Bob
Posted by joslynn on July 10, 2006, at 12:06:25
In reply to Re: promoting one's business, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2006, at 9:58:43
My issue with it is that bowtie does not say in all his posts that he is a personal coach. On one post, he will espouse those theories, often to a depressed person, but won't say where he is coming from. The theories often criticize psychotherapy in a way that makes it sound like people who do it are whiney. Then, in separate posts, I have seen him linking to his personal coaching web site. But he didn't tell Michael upfront that's where he was coming from. I think that's the unethical part.
Say I were a pharma rep for lexapro, and somone here came on for advice about prozac. And I posted saying "lexapro is just a blah-blah wimpy drug, what you really need is lexapro" but I never revealed in the post to that person that I was selling lexapro myself and making money off of it.
To me, that wouldn't be ethical.
It's nothing against personal coaching. If someone came on and said "my experience with personal coaching has been great" or "my experience with lexapro is great" that is fine. But for a personal coach to say therapy is not helpful, or for a pharma rep to say prozac is bad, and not to reveal what you do for a living, seems to be a conflict of interest to me.
Remember, bowtie was the same person who used to post as "Dr. Rod" when he wasn't a pdoc. Naturally people thought he was a pdoc with that title and given the nature of this sight. So already there was something misleading from the start.
I am in marketing and advertising, and I know this field. Something here is fishy. For me, I'm in a good place now psychologically, I can kind of chuckle at it all. But when someone is severely depressed, and comes here considering therapy, then gets "advice" from a personal coach against therapy, when they don't know that person is a coach and has posted their business website on here...I think that's wrong.
Think of the pharm rep example and then I think maybe my point will make more sense?
Posted by joslynn on July 10, 2006, at 12:14:59
In reply to Re: promoting one's business, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2006, at 11:52:02
To answer your question, no...Not if they will eventually make $ off of it and especially not if they are not upfront that they are promoting their business.
It's about the $ and the cloaked intentions, IMO. There is a difference between a recommendation and promotion.
On the internet, there is something called "seeding," where people are paid to espouse a certain product and paid for the companies to do this. I am not saying bowtie is doing this, but, it's an example of how the internet can be used as a marketing tool in a less-than-sincere way.
Even if bowtie truly thinks he is sincere, I think it's unfair of him to criticize therapy in most of his posts, then support the ideals of personal coaching, and not tell that person (who may be hurting and in need of tradional therapy) that he himself is a personal coach.
Posted by joslynn on July 10, 2006, at 12:18:18
In reply to Re: promoting one's business » Dr. Bob, posted by joslynn on July 10, 2006, at 12:06:25
P.S. In my example of the pharma rep sample dialogue, I meant to type "prozac is a wimpy drug" not lexapro. (Not that it is...I was just making an anology.)
Posted by joslynn on July 10, 2006, at 12:31:52
In reply to Re: promoting one's business, posted by joslynn on July 10, 2006, at 12:18:18
Well now the post I was talking about is gone anyway, so I can't give an example of the specific things to which I objected. It was an anti-therapy tone, and to me, didn't just put down therapy, but put down people who spend time in it. (The idea that people are choosing to be victims and whine etc. is my recollection.) And I also recall seeing bowtie post his own personal coaching web site in a separate post, but I don't remember where I saw that either. However, I do have a pretty good memory.
If bowtie is not a personal coach and he didn't post his personal coach website, then what I said doesn't apply. But I think my memory is correct in this case, I just don't have time to find the posts.
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 11, 2006, at 1:13:58
In reply to P.S., posted by joslynn on July 10, 2006, at 12:31:52
I think the frequently used term is "grumbling complainer" occasionally it's whiner.
I agree with what you've said completely.
When it's coupled with continued anti-therapy talk, statements such as "there is no cure" with no references (which obviously really scared people) To me, it's the equivilant of telling someone who's very ill, desperate and vulnerable to stop taking their cancer medication and try this formula that they've just made in their kitchen.
Thankfully, I think in most cases it's given the appropriate amount of attention.
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2006, at 7:27:18
In reply to Promoting one's business » joslynn, posted by Gabbi~G on July 11, 2006, at 1:13:58
My only concern is that I'd rather people be open about who they are. Like a while back there was a pharmaceutical representative here, and people were all upset about it. But overall I'd rather have someone posting as Pharmrep and openly promoting their product than posting as "Joe" and promoting their product in a more subtle manner.
So if there was a rule against promoting one's business, mightn't people just hide what they were doing?
Posted by joslynn on July 11, 2006, at 8:40:16
In reply to Re: Promoting one's business, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2006, at 7:27:18
Well that's sort of my point, I think we agree in a way. I think that the person should be up front about what they are promoting in all posts, especially if they are going to discredit something else that has actually been helpful to people. I happen to know where this person is coming from because I remember an old post where a web site was promoted.However, other people may not know that, and take it at face value. Especially when people have the shame and guilt that comes along with depression, and are also dealing with physical symptoms of it as well, the last thing they need is to be told they are a "complainer" if they go to therapy instead of personal coaching.
I believe that Gardener Girl is a therapist, but she doesn't go on the med board telling people, "you know, taking meds is just a bandaid" and then in a separate post, links to her therapy business home page.
By the way, I know a friend who found personal coaching very helpful. She was not severely depressed however.
When someone is so severely depressed that colors are muted, suicial thoughts are rampant, and they are waking up every morning at 3:30, can't eat, can't sleep, etc., they may need more than personal coaching. And they also don't need to be told that they are being complainers or whatever. It is those people I am most worried about being hurt by the posts.
I also don't think the poster has any bad intentions, but it's a slippery slope that could lead to more self-promotion on this site and could really end up making someone in pain feel worse.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 11, 2006, at 13:18:06
In reply to Re: Promoting one's business, posted by joslynn on July 11, 2006, at 8:40:16
I imagine that we could post a link to where someone talked about their business in the past on new threads if the person doesn't self-disclose. That wouldn't solve the issue of someone new coming here and not disclosing an affiliation that could create a conflict of interest when evaluating their posts. And I suppose we can't count on it, but we do seem to look out for each other here, which I think is a good thing.
And by the way, I'm still in training. Just to clarify. :)
gg
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 11, 2006, at 18:33:21
In reply to Re: Promoting one's business » joslynn, posted by gardenergirl on July 11, 2006, at 13:18:06
I also needed to clarify, that I wasn't knocking personal coaching as a proffession, not at all.
I actually have my life skills coach certificate, from years ago when it was an adjunct to the work I did.My making the leap from that program though, to advising on psychiatry mental illness, and abuse recovery is about as likely as my going to a famine and disease devastated country and advising them on the importance of proper budgeting and home decor.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2006, at 17:26:26
In reply to Re: promoting one's business » Dr. Bob, posted by joslynn on July 10, 2006, at 12:06:25
> My issue with it is that bowtie does not say in all his posts that he is a personal coach. ... he will espouse ... theories [that] often criticize psychotherapy in a way that makes it sound like people who do it are whiney.
Ah, I see what you mean. I think there are actually 3 separate issues here:
1. Espousing one's theories, or promoting one's business. I think I'm OK with that.
2. Not disclosing potential conflicts of interest. I like gg's suggestion regarding that.
3. Making it sound like anyone is whiny. That I think I'd consider uncivil...
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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