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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 119 to 143 of 412. Go back in thread:
Posted by JenStar on March 8, 2006, at 16:06:16
In reply to Re: Am I the only one? » JenStar, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 15:52:32
Larry,
the thing is, I just don't agree that mandatory trigger flags are the right thing for Babble. I know it's not my decision alone. But it's my opinion. I think we need compromise on the decision NOW, not just during implementation.I think a "binary decision" *is* an ultimatum, just with another name. If someone says, "If you don't do X, I will do Y" and leaves no room for compromise, I think it's an ultimatum regardless of whatever it's called.
I feel that I'm capable of looking at decisions and situations from different angles. I just think this is one that merits compromise so that it best fits the group AS A WHOLE.
I'm not sure we're going to get anywhere with this, though, if you're really not interested in a compromise and meet-halfway kind of solution.
My suggestion: I support VOLUNTARY red checkmarks and/or drop down arrows that highlight certain posts as triggers for things like SI, CSA, extreme violence. Obviously if these things become mandatory, I will follow the rules. But I personally feel that voluntary reporting is the best thing for the community as a whole.
Should we agree to disagree? I'm not sure that any more discussion between you and me is going to result in progress? Maybe we should both hold off and wait for more posters to join in with their ideas? I'll do that, at least. I've said my idea, and I will listen to what others think. thanks!
JenStar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 16:06:27
In reply to Re: Am I the only one? » JenStar, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 15:52:32
There are many ways I've asked people to think of this, and I'm going to add another.
If I might enter Babble every day, knowing that *every* post around me has at least had the inkling of trigger considered, I can start my day in safety. I want that, because I've never had it before, and it would bring me closer to being unsensitized, like you. All day, I'm not safe, every day. I have to be a certain amount of awake, in the morning, before I come....and I hold my breath, and I start clicking on things, to see which gets me first, my interest, or a trigger. And I want to be like you.
Babble is the only source of triggers in my life, almost. It takes its toll.
Lar
Posted by All Done on March 8, 2006, at 16:49:59
In reply to Re: Another tack, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 16:06:27
> If I might enter Babble every day, knowing that *every* post around me has at least had the inkling of trigger considered, I can start my day in safety.
Hi, Larry.
Can that be accomplished by simply asking the posters if they want to add a trigger warning prior to submitting their posts? It wouldn't be *manadatory* to add the warning, but it would ensure posters at least think about trigger possibilities and subsequenstly make decisions to add warnings or not.
I realize this doesn't ensure everyone will select to add a warning to something that may be triggering. I don't know if making this mandatory *would* ensure that, though. Not everyone follows the rules all the time. (Much to my chagrin. ;) )
Laurie
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 19:19:08
In reply to maybe we should get input from more people? » Larry Hoover, posted by JenStar on March 8, 2006, at 16:06:16
> I think a "binary decision" *is* an ultimatum, just with another name.
I urge you to reconsider that conclusion. It is not in accord with the only evidence you have.
> If someone says, "If you don't do X, I will do Y" and leaves no room for compromise, I think it's an ultimatum regardless of whatever it's called.
I'm sorry my multi-track mind has mangled the muse for you. My decision to stay (or not) is independent of my desire to sort this out, regardless of anything else that might be going on. I'm sorry if the two seemed wedded, to you.
You ought to place no weight on me in this decision. I can only speak of me, but the decision is not about me, and never was.
> I feel that I'm capable of looking at decisions and situations from different angles. I just think this is one that merits compromise so that it best fits the group AS A WHOLE.
I suggested my suggestion was a win-win. Have you explored that?
> I'm not sure we're going to get anywhere with this, though, if you're really not interested in a compromise and meet-halfway kind of solution.
Your compromise is not one, because if fails to meet any of my needs, only yours. You can understand why it is rejected, on that basis.
> My suggestion: I support VOLUNTARY red checkmarks and/or drop down arrows that highlight certain posts as triggers for things like SI, CSA, extreme violence. Obviously if these things become mandatory, I will follow the rules. But I personally feel that voluntary reporting is the best thing for the community as a whole.
No, because that permits and actually encourages inequalities. One rule for all, equally advanced. Be responsible for your own posts, just as before.
> Should we agree to disagree? I'm not sure that any more discussion between you and me is going to result in progress?
If you continue to hold our your suggestion as a compromise, you can be sure of that. It is zero to me. I gain nothing by it. I would appreciate a sensitive attempt at meeting my needs in some way, if you want to formalize the idea that an offer has even been made. So far, this negotiator has not received a counter-proposal to manditory flagging that meets even the simplest a prior criteria.
> Maybe we should both hold off and wait for more posters to join in with their ideas? I'll do that, at least. I've said my idea, and I will listen to what others think. thanks!
>
> JenStarSorry, I didn't see that statement until now, and I've already written what I wanted to.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 19:25:24
In reply to Re: Another tack » Larry Hoover, posted by All Done on March 8, 2006, at 16:49:59
> > If I might enter Babble every day, knowing that *every* post around me has at least had the inkling of trigger considered, I can start my day in safety.
>
> Hi, Larry.
>
> Can that be accomplished by simply asking the posters if they want to add a trigger warning prior to submitting their posts? It wouldn't be *manadatory* to add the warning, but it would ensure posters at least think about trigger possibilities and subsequenstly make decisions to add warnings or not.
>
> I realize this doesn't ensure everyone will select to add a warning to something that may be triggering. I don't know if making this mandatory *would* ensure that, though. Not everyone follows the rules all the time. (Much to my chagrin. ;) )
>
> LaurieIf I don't have faith in the process, I cannot have faith in the outcome. How can I possibly place my faith in a system which has no real rules of conduct?
You can glorify the current voluntary system, which I have described as inadequate. You can put a nice fancy flag out there, and tie it in a bow. If it isn't mandatory, it isn't worth.... forget it.
Even I, the man who never let a controversy go quietly into that dark of night, am weary.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 19:27:11
In reply to maybe we should get input from more people? » Larry Hoover, posted by JenStar on March 8, 2006, at 16:06:16
> Larry,
> If someone says, "If you don't do X, I will do Y" and leaves no room for compromise, I think it's an ultimatum regardless of whatever it's called.I should think that at this point, your greatest fear might instead be that I change my mind and stay. :-/
Lar
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 8, 2006, at 19:28:55
In reply to Re: Another tack, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 16:06:27
> There are many ways I've asked people to think of this, and I'm going to add another.
>
> If I might enter Babble every day, knowing that *every* post around me has at least had the inkling of trigger considered, I can start my day in safety. I want that, because I've never had it before, and it would bring me closer to being unsensitized, like you. All day, I'm not safe, every day. I have to be a certain amount of awake, in the morning, before I come....and I hold my breath, and I start clicking on things, to see which gets me first, my interest, or a trigger. And I want to be like you.
>
> Babble is the only source of triggers in my life, almost. It takes its toll.
>
> LarI feel manipulated by this.
It's not all about you.
I feel like the my pain and my needs and that of others is being ignored in order to bring the focus to your own. And it's becoming progressively more dramatic as the thread goes on, without your desired resolution.
WE couldn't be in as much pain as you, or we'd agree with you.
No one could feel as strongly about something, and react in a different way.
No according to you they'd be thinking "F*ck those people in wheelchairs"You've said yourself that you post on Alt.Depression.medication..
There is not even the most remote form of moderation there, it's a free for all I can't go there, it makes me sick to my stomach.It's personal, I know, however what you've said here however indirectly has been very personal, and worded very strongly.
You claim that people couldn't know how you feel.
Do you know how everyone else feels?I don't understand this.
Posted by verne on March 8, 2006, at 19:52:58
In reply to Re: Jen? » JenStar, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 19:27:11
Larry,
I've always been one of your biggest fans. You and PsychoBabble are synomynous.
I'm not sure though I can agree with your comment to JenStar: "I should think that at this point, your greatest fear might instead be that I change my mind and stay."
Or earlier when you said others didn't "know".
Even if we could read minds, I'm not sure it's polite to tell others what they are thinking and feeling.
I think you're the best. I would rather read Larry Hoover's comments on the alternative board than a book on the subject any day. I hope it works out so you can stay.
Meanwhile, all this emotional wrangling, the ultimatums, and brinkmanship, has "triggered" me into drinking. (maybe a little anyway)
Verne
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:06:56
In reply to Re: Another tack » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on March 8, 2006, at 19:28:55
> I feel manipulated by this.
I'm sick and tired of being manipulated by people who put their desire to speak their minds ahead of my desire to clear the area first. Maybe we're on a more even keel right now.
> It's not all about you.
Feel free to speak about you. I happen to be an expert about me.
> I feel like the my pain and my needs and that of others is being ignored in order to bring the focus to your own. And it's becoming progressively more dramatic as the thread goes on, without your desired resolution.
If you wanna debate, I've given you years' worth. Drum me out if you must, but I'm not going to be taken for granted in this way any more. I am not a selfish person. I seldom even speak of my own needs. It's part and parcel with my disorder, though. And though there be good and better ways to get across what I'm trying to get across, I know that I *have* gotten across.
So, I'm done, unless somebody wants to take some more cracks at me, instead of the ideas.
> WE couldn't be in as much pain as you, or we'd agree with you.I asked for a witness to a special view into the dynamic of one word, protection, as it applies to triggers. I am stubborn to make that point.
I don't profess expert status on such matters. But I can tell you I have been studying advocacy with local experts, and I have attended dozens of hours of special workshops on similar issues. A solution must originate from the perspective of the one in need. Must do so. Nothing else is within the dignity of the need itself, except by chance. Unless you don't care to meet the need at all, which can lead to much ado going nowhere. I'm trying to avoid that wasted effort.
> No one could feel as strongly about something, and react in a different way.
I dare say you're reading many things in, that I didn't place there.
> No according to you they'd be thinking "F*ck those people in wheelchairs"
Got your attention, huh. That was a quote, by the way. Not my words, but a quote, from a public meeting I attended. And, if you read that paragraph again, you can hear the dripping sarcasm, swim in it.
> You've said yourself that you post on Alt.Depression.medication..
> There is not even the most remote form of moderation there, it's a free for all I can't go there, it makes me sick to my stomach.I do post to a.s.d.m., but only in an advisory capacity any more. Got rid of the last neanderthal, and things are smooth, for the last while.
> It's personal, I know, however what you've said here however indirectly has been very personal, and worded very strongly.Yes.
> You claim that people couldn't know how you feel.
Not without listening precisely to my answers, not even a chance. Voluntary flagging does not address the special needs which I have been discussing. Needs which are not unique to me. I just know mine best, so I use them in discussion. I, from the get-go, made this about the sensitized, not me. 10% of the mentally ill, give or take. Not sure about Babble, because of the distortion imposed by years' of not addressing what no other moderated site I know has failed to address. Didn't want to put it like that, but it's not just PsychCentral that I compare it to.
I swear, again, I cannot believe I have to debate the merits.
> Do you know how everyone else feels?
Nope. Wouldn't be so presumptuous.
> I don't understand this.Sorry. Shall I try again?
<joke/silly/not serious>Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
In reply to Re: Another tack » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on March 8, 2006, at 19:28:55
without me.
I'll look in in a few weeks'/months' time. I'll leave babblemail on.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on March 8, 2006, at 20:19:40
In reply to Re: Jen? » JenStar, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 19:27:11
I don't think that Jenstar was in any way trying to be disrespectful or unkind?
Posted by Sobriquet Style on March 8, 2006, at 20:22:13
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
I really don't understand Administration threads so well, I don't know what it is exactly, but sometimes I find it hard to reach a conclusion when reading them.
Other times, I feel the answer is right there in front of me.
~
Posted by Emme on March 8, 2006, at 20:43:44
In reply to Am I the only one?, posted by Larry Hoover on March 6, 2006, at 15:26:26
Wow. I poke in on admin and holee cow. I haven't read every post in this thread, but I think I've got the gist. I'm not too easily triggered, so the issue doesn't affect me greatly. But if other people say they would benefit from some sort of formalized alarm system, then why not? If it's easy to do (check a box, or write *T* for trigger), then I would imagine people would be willing to do it. That, and enough info in the subject line to know the category of trigger, and it should give sensitive people some extra roadsigns.
I see there's been some debate over voluntary vs. involuntary. And I admit I haven't given this deep thought. But if there's a policy on swe*r w*rds, maybe there's room for a policy on triggers.
emme
Posted by verne on March 8, 2006, at 22:13:27
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
My last "crack" at you was showering you with praise. I don't really know you but I have the greatest respect for you.
Perhaps, Bob, or to use another metaphor, a HORSE, let's say, was unwilling to drink from the purest stream of watered logic at an exact little riverside bank under a low hanging branch (trout look up and smile the way trout do, at this spot).
Let's say this horse, and even the herd, gets spooked by the repeated, and determined, efforts of a lone horse to force the entire herd to drink at this spot. Perhaps they don't know that spot or they have already drunk their full. Maybe they are on the other side of the stream and just not thirsty.
The only thing binary at the stream is whether Uncle Bob grabs me from behind. (grabs me- doesn't grab me)
you're still the best.
Verne
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 22:52:33
In reply to Re: Am I the only one? » JenStar, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 13:37:13
> Just knowing that it is the policy that someone cares whether or not I get triggered, and backs that up with some kind of authority, is very supportive. It helps me bounce back. It doesn't help me in the moment of finding the land-mine, but it helps afterwards.
It can be important to feel cared about by someone with authority. I understand that. I'm sorry you don't feel that here.
> > Plus, as I mentioned before, retroactive flagging could in fact be an option.
>
> And how do I know when that task has been completedYou can't know for sure, but on a busy board, give it a day?
> Would it be reasonable to toss a box of condoms into the lap of a woman who was seeking treatment after having unprotected sex with an HIV-positive man, and send her on her way, confident that all was well?
Would it have been reasonable, if condoms had been available, for her not to have used them because she considered them, um, barriers to participation?
> I don't want the job, as I said.
That's OK, others are willing to do it.
> I'm glad to see that you accept the idea of a core list of trigger subjects. That's big progress already.
Thanks, one step at a time...
> you, the insensitive (used in that rhetorical sense implied above)
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if rhetorical, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 0:11:53
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
Thing is, Larry, you triggered me.
Verne
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 0:35:15
In reply to Good Luck, posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 0:11:53
As I mentioned before, you triggered me, twice. And I'm not triggered often. Nor would I normally even mention it, but I feel I have to here.
No it wasn't your suggestion but the methods used to get your point across.I'm not saying that to be cruel, or to play t*t-for tat. I'm saying it because it's the absolute truth. People don't always know what will trigger. We can't cover all of them.
And mine may be different from yours, but they cause me just as much pain, or discomfort.
The inference that I am somehow less sensitive because of this, is well I've said it before- triggering..
I'm ranting.
This whole thing.. just really got to me.I'm sorry this is just after Verne's but I was going to post it regardless, and I wasn't going to let unfortunate timing stop me.
Posted by sdb on March 9, 2006, at 0:48:35
In reply to Larry, posted by Gabbix2 on March 9, 2006, at 0:35:15
>The thorne.com article might be closest to what >you're looking for? <guessing>
>Happy reading!
>LarDear Larry,
Could you keep an eye on the alternative babble?
People may need your worth advice/knowledge there.
~sdb
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 22:52:33
> > you, the insensitive (used in that rhetorical sense implied above)
>
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, even if rhetorical, could you please rephrase that?I used an abstract structure, and expressly selected the definition I intended, and I don't know what more to do that still has anything the meaning I wanted to convey. I can't think of a rephrasing. Will an apology do? I'm sorry I made uncivil inferences about anybody.
Now, would you please just let me go?
I'm a stranger in a strange land. Why couldn't I simply accept that if people heard me cry out for help, that it would be enough? I never had anybody just listen to me about a selfish thing. There was always a gauntlet to run, and I never once made it through. So, I am unprepared for how to do that simple thing. I put on the whole TV campaign, and wrote speeches. I was gearing up to march on the Capital....
That was intended to be self-deprecating humour, the last post I made to Jen. My way of acknowledging what a PITA I can be.
I *need* to go now.
Lar
Posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 8:50:04
In reply to Good Luck, posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 0:11:53
When this happens, step away from the keyboard. Don't give in to the little voice.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 9, 2006, at 8:51:28
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36
How about "those who don't get triggered"
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 10:33:13
In reply to I'll go away, and let you all mull it over, posted by Larry Hoover on March 8, 2006, at 20:14:50
> without me.
>
> I'll look in in a few weeks'/months' time. I'll leave babblemail on.
>
> LarGod, you guys aren't going to trust a thing I say, considering how I often I change my mind, eh?
So much has taken place, in so short a time.
And, I'm back again, to being me. What do I mean by that?
I've almost got it in real time, almost. Which means I've almost got the hang of it.
I entered into discussion over something that has a particular magnitude in my life. I know it is true of others, as well. And I meant to speak rationally, and convincingly, about a process, an experience, that really is difficult to even frame in words.
Somewhere, along that path of discussion, I was joined by an indignant version of myself, but I didn't note his arrival. For a period of time, I was speaking with two voices simultaneously, but I, the one I call me, remained unaware of this. The me version would write something, and then I'd go to edit it. And I think that's where the indignant me snuck through, into print. During the edit. Sharp remarks and embellishments, unfiltered.
What you might observe in this thread, is me coming to realize what I'm saying now. Babble is an environment which encourages personal growth. I want it to be better. I want it to be safer. And you watched me do something I have never before done. You watched me grow.
I didn't do it with sensitivity to others. Ironic, considering my own topic of discussion. But sadly true.
So, I offer my utterly sincere and unconditional apology to anyone who was offended by my hyperbole, simile, metaphor, and just plain rhetorical assault upon your sensibilities.
Little Lar, or whatever you want to call the indignant one (teenager?), is no longer a secret to me. It may seem like an absurdity to you that I didn't know, as I'm sure you've seen him around before. <shrug> But, the thing is, I can't go back to a state of ignorance. The secret is out.
About this thread. About triggers. Please, do not think of me. Think about triggers. I've seen already that you do. I see the caring already.
And, I'm sincere, nothwithstanding that this is maybe the fourth time I've posted similarly, I do need to go.
TTFN,
Lar
Posted by Dinah on March 9, 2006, at 10:41:32
In reply to Re: I'm deeply sorry., posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 10:33:13
It happens to a lot of us, Lar. I certainly understand.
And Babble *can* be a place for growth in that. Or at least that's been my experience.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 9, 2006, at 10:58:13
In reply to Re: My apologies, fellow Babblers, posted by verne on March 5, 2006, at 11:08:49
I think this is an excellent idea. (Very good example, Verne!) The easier we make it for people to do something, the more likely it will be done.
Whether it's voluntary or mandatory...well, I haven't thought that through. If it becomes mandatory, I'd like to see a great deal more warnings before a block. What number? I don't know.
Also, I thought about setting up a Yahoo group (Open) survey about topics to try to identify the trigger topics most likely to be used. And perhaps if this format is implemented, there could be a category for "other" and then the person can elaborate a bit in the subject line? Is that still do-able, and is it a good idea?
gg
> Perhaps we could have a box or boxes for triggers that we could check on the "Enter Post" screen.
>
> [] self injury
>
> [] physical abuse
>
> [] alcohol or drug use
>
> Perhaps one universal box for triggers on the Enter screen and more specific boxes on the Revise and Submit Post screen.
>
> These additional boxes would be activated if the trigger box on the Enter Post screen were checked, in the same way movie and book links are created on the Submit Post screen with double quotes.
>
> Verne
Posted by verne on March 9, 2006, at 13:28:40
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on March 9, 2006, at 7:06:36
I'm sorry Larry, I got hysterical last nite. PWD and more looped than usual, after taking an experimental dose of Kanna powder. Part of my diagnosis is histronic personality disorder. (I tend to up the rhetoric)
You're still fine in my book.
verne
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