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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 143 to 167 of 255. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 19:39:27
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 19:10:16
> I've worried about that as well,
Yes, I know you did.
>I don't think it's the same,
ok.
I think it was worth having the Babble party. It helped people feel included. But there is going to be a cost for people who couldn't go. Just like there is a cost for people who can't sign up to a small board...
> If people would prefer it, I'd be perfectly happy to keep what happened there private. I just wanted everyone to feel included as much as I possibly could.
:-)
I know.
It is nice hearing peoples impressions etc.
It is nice to feel included in it vicariously in that way.
Not so nice when one feels like one is missing out because they don't get a joke or comment.
And people who have met have another layer of connection now.
Things change.
Thats life I suppose...> Completely different motivation than discussing things that people didn't want to include others on, wouldn't you think?
Yes. I don't think small boards are like that either. It idea isn't to keep particular people out. Rather it is to help people feel included who are in.
> The intent being to include others to the greatest extent I possibly can, instead of to exclude people.
Absolutely.
Please don't think I question your motivation Dinah. I know you are very well intentioned and also very sensitive to other peoples feelings.But I do think... That more people will feel included if small boards are implemented.
I also think that people feeling excluded can be reduced by doing such things as making the board only viewable to members etc.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 20:05:32
In reply to Re: not that strong » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 19:39:27
> And people who have met have another layer of connection now.
But Alexandra, that's what I've been trying to say. It was like meeting people we already knew. We didn't have an added layer of connection so much as we confirmed the connection we already had. I already knew Falls and GG and All Done and the rest to greater or lesser extents. Meeting them confirmed that. But I already knew them. Which means that cyberfriends can be real friends.
> Yes. I don't think small boards are like that either. It idea isn't to keep particular people out.
But that's the reality. And it's purposeful if not intentional. I can't really talk about it with you because we don't share a common background on the topic. It's like we're coming from two different cultural backgrounds trying to discuss something that is so fundamental to each of us that it doesn't even need explanation. It's impossible between nations, and I think it's probably impossible between people.
> But I do think... That more people will feel included if small boards are implemented.
A wider range of types of people, perhaps.
>
> I also think that people feeling excluded can be reduced by doing such things as making the board only viewable to members etc.
>
>
Agreed.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 20:50:33
In reply to Re: not that strong, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 20:05:32
> > And people who have met have another layer of connection now.
> It was like meeting people we already knew. We didn't have an added layer of connection so much as we confirmed the connection we already had.And that confirming of connection is just what I meant by another layer of connection.
> > Yes. I don't think small boards are like that either. It idea isn't to keep particular people out.
> But that's the reality. And it's purposeful if not intentional.And the reality of the Babble party is that some people can't go who would like to. Its the reality even if not intentional.
I don't think it is that our values are different, Dinah. I think it is that you are weighting things differently.
So...
Pro of small boards: some people will feel included who wouldn't if small boards weren't implemented.
Con of small boards: some people will feel excluded who wouldn't if small boards weren't implemented.Pro of Babble party: some people will get the extra layer of having their friendships confirmed IRL (which I think is kind of like feeling included).
Con of Babble party: some people will not get the extra layer of having their friendships confirmed IRL (which is kind of like feeling excluded).In the small board eg you think the cons are weighted more heavily than the pros.
But with respect to the Babble party you think it is weighted the other way around.Does this make sense???
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 20:56:01
In reply to Re: not that strong » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 19:39:27
>> But I do think... That more people will feel included if small boards are implemented.
> A wider range of types of people, perhaps.
Actually I don't have enough information to make that determination. The people who share the same values I do on this topic would feel less likely to want to stick around Babble because they wouldn't identify very well with the site as it would be. The people who share the same values I do on this topic who are already here are probably too attached to the site to leave.
The people who share different values on this topic than I have would feel more included.
I have no way of knowing how many people are in each group.
It's not unlike religion or politics, I guess. Those with traditional Christian beliefs may feel uncomfortable with this site because of the Faith board rules. Which numbers are bigger I'm not sure. (And I'm don't have traditional Christian beliefs.)
People with Conservative values probably don't feel as comfortable on this site as people with Liberal values. I know that from experience. We're in the distinct minority. How many people leave because of that? I don't know. Which group has a larger number? I don't know.
I think in the latter two cases, Dr. Bob doesn't care much about sheer numbers. He has the site uphold certain values despite the numbers. They may or may not be values I share, but he sticks to them.
And he's making the same choice here. He's choosing to have the site represent the set of values he respects. And for all I know there are more people in the world who visit this site who share those values than that share mine. So the numbers may indeed go up.
So it's just another thing like Liberal/Conservative. I care enough about this site to stay, even if this place isn't always representative of my values. And I try to respect other people's values.
I'm having trouble with this one mainly because I don't understand what the other values are. But I've decided I really don't need to, so that's my conclusion.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 21:03:38
In reply to Re: not that strong » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 20:50:33
No, I don't see it as the same. Sorry.
Everyone was invited. We would have welcomed whoever was able to attend.
The difference was in who joined in, not in who was invited.
It's like I might not be able to post on Politics because I don't have the stomach for it. But I don't think the people on Politics are excluding me. For whatever reasons, many beyond my control, I can't participate. But they wouldn't tell me to leave if I was able to.
The result may be the same, but the route is different. The route may not matter to you, but it does to me. If we had asked you not to come, or if we had said that only twentyfive people could come, and then no more invites would be extended it would be the same. But that wasn't the case.
You may feel the same. But the route wasn't the same.
In your value system that may not matter. In mine intentions do matter.
But I can talk to you about this till I'm blue in the face and it won't make a difference, so I withdraw from future comparisons.
You are free to believe as you wish, as am I.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 21:07:52
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 21:03:38
> But I can talk to you about this till I'm blue in the face and it won't make a difference, so I withdraw from future comparisons.
>
> You are free to believe as you wish, as am I.By that I mean let's agree to differ. I'm not saying that talking to you specifically won't be of any use. I'm saying that discussions like this rarely end in someone smacking their heads and saying "Of course. I was wrong, you were right." And so I prefer not to engage further in a conversation that is unlikely to lead to resolution, by its very nature.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 23:01:38
In reply to I worded that poorly. I apologize., posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 21:07:52
My point was...
That it isn't that the values are different.
It is just that you are weighting the value differently.
Everyone seems to value inclusion and think that exclusion is a bad thing.
So it is about weighting the inclusion versus the exclusion and making a decision.With respect to small boards...
Everyone is welcome to join.
But the constraint is joining before x number of people have joined.With respect to the Babble party...
Everyone is welcome to go.
But the constraint is having the means available to get there and having the spare time.In both cases the intention isn't to exclude people.
The intention is to make people feel more included.But the reality in both cases is that people can't join / go who would like to.
Sorry if you don't like the comparison, but I have to say that it strikes me...
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 7, 2005, at 0:40:15
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 20:56:01
> I care enough about this site to stay, even if this place isn't always representative of my values.
I hope it stays representative enough! Thanks for being open to giving it a try...
Bob
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 1:38:06
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize., posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 23:01:38
> My point was...
> That it isn't that the values are different.
> It is just that you are weighting the value differently.
> Everyone seems to value inclusion and think that exclusion is a bad thing.
> So it is about weighting the inclusion versus the exclusion and making a decision.
>
> With respect to small boards...
>
> Everyone is welcome to join.
> But the constraint is joining before x number of people have joined.
>
> With respect to the Babble party...
>
> Everyone is welcome to go.
> But the constraint is having the means available to get there and having the spare time.
>
> In both cases the intention isn't to exclude people.
> The intention is to make people feel more included.
>
> But the reality in both cases is that people can't join / go who would like to.
>
> Sorry if you don't like the comparison, but I have to say that it strikes me...
Sorry if you don't like this comparison but...Boards: Everyone is welcome to join.
> But the constraint is joining before x number of people have joined.There are other options, people don't need to be openly excluded. Of course everyone can join! "This is a group of three, oh sorry too late!"
It is a self negating concept to say it's open
to everyone but only a select number can join.
With respect to the Babble party...
>
> Everyone is welcome to go.
> But the constraint is having the means available to get there and having the spare time.
I do not think they are comparable.I can't concieve of anyone thinking they are comparable. Life isn't math.
Everyone was invited, if everyone had showed up it would have been great. Life placed the constraints on who could go or not, NOT Babble and NOT those who attended the party.
I remember you saying to me, when I was saying that I felt left out, but was trying to explain that I didn't think there was anything wrong with the party, that you did't want the people who attended the party to feel bad about going. Don't you think this might have that effect?
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 4:03:07
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 1:38:06
> I remember you saying to me, when I was saying that I felt left out, but was trying to explain that I didn't think there was anything wrong with the party, that you did't want the people who attended the party to feel bad about going. Don't you think this might have that effect?
I didn't want people not to go because of how other people might feel. It was a wonderful oportunity for people. I'm not trying to make people feel bad about going. I'm just trying to point out that for every benefit for some there is a cost for others and that is life.
That is life.
And there it is.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 4:05:44
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 4:03:07
And that the people who are against small boards, who worry about people feeling excluded, well they are typically the people who feel most included the way things are at present.
They don't see that people feel excluded the way things are currently. But some people do feel excluded.
And small boards aren't so much for the benefit of people who feel included already as they are for the people who presently feel excluded.
And for every benefit there is a cost
And that is life.And sometimes people will feel excluded.
And there it is.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 4:17:30
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize., posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 4:05:44
Don't worry about it
Forget about it
It doesn't matter.
I won't bring it up again.
I think I get a little too involved in the boards sometimes
Good to be reminded of that
Time to find the real world
Time to find the real world
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 5:47:37
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize., posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 4:05:44
Yes, I don't think I want to post anymore on this subject. I was feeling bad for Dinah, actually who'd asked for a reprieve and didn't seem to get it.
> And that is life.
>
> And sometimes people will feel excluded.
> And there it is.It's not that cut and dried to me.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 5:51:07
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize., posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 23:01:38
I have to disagree.
But you're entitled to your opinion.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 5:58:19
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 5:47:37
Well, to be fair, I could have continued to refrain from answering the posts that occurred while I was refraining to answer. :)
It's just that it came to me over that period of time that the difference had to be core values, and that made it so much easier for me than thinking I wasn't explaining well enough, or that people were violating values. Thinking that people weren't violating values, just had different ones made it easier not to fight. I understand many situations where people have different values, and I manage to be understanding of that.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:06:40
In reply to Re: values, posted by Dr. Bob on June 7, 2005, at 0:40:15
Well, I don't think it will be. But I love Babble anyway. You just won't get new posters who believe as I do. Particularly if you make them publicly viewable. I never would have decided to become part of such a place, I assure you.
But you could conceivably get many new posters who have different values.
Although, if something is already implemented on a site, people might not think about it. Unless they try to post an answer to a publicly viewable post and get a little message slapping their hands. So I still think you should make them nonviewable.
I still think you should consider nonviewable small or large boards because:
a) It would be less likely to cause that problem. and
b) Nikki has said that the major draw of the small boards would be to have a place to post that wasn't viewable by the entire internet. I'm sure that's true of many many people. So if you really want to increase numbers, giving a private board where they don't have to be afraid of their therapist or boss running across the site would probably bring a lot of new posters who may not even give a rat's derriere about the size or restrictions of the small group.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:11:49
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 1:38:06
BTW, Gabbi. You're right.
Posting here about the experience has taken something that felt purely positive and made it feel sad. We didn't intend or want to exclude anyone. And my efforts to make those who couldn't have come feel part of the experience have apparently just backfired.
Now I just can't feel very good about it.
But I learned a valuable lesson for next year.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:19:35
In reply to Re: values » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:06:40
In fact even I would be tempted to post on a nonviewable board for things that i didn't want to be seen.
I don't think there are any left, but if there were...
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 7, 2005, at 8:39:59
In reply to Re: values » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:06:40
> Everyone was invited, if everyone had showed up it would have been great.
>
> Gabbi-x-2In some ways, yes, but...
> a private board where they don't have to be afraid of their therapist or boss running across the site would probably bring a lot of new posters
>
> DinahWell, their therapist or boss still *might* be there...
Bob
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 9:04:20
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:11:49
> BTW, Gabbi. You're right.
aww, Cr*p, I wondered, that's how I would have felt too. I didn't agree with the comparison in the first place, and I think it would have been thoughtful to leave what was such a happy experience for you guys alone for awhile.
> Posting here about the experience has taken something that felt purely positive and made it feel sad. We didn't intend or want to exclude anyone. And my efforts to make those who couldn't have come feel part of the experience have apparently just backfired.
>
> Now I just can't feel very good about it.
>
> But I learned a valuable lesson for next year.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 9:26:22
In reply to Re: values, posted by Dr. Bob on June 7, 2005, at 8:39:59
Please, Dr. Bob. You know as well as I do that the chances, already low, would still go down exponentially from having a publicly open and googleable board.
Nikki has strong feelings about this. And so might others. It might be good to request input from those who might feel more comfortable posting if the board weren't readable by anyone with internet access.
For myself, I've already spilled my secrets.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 9:40:04
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » Dinah, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 9:04:20
I felt a bit hurt this morning that what I meant to be attempts to include those who couldn't make it weren't universally received in that spirit.
However, I'm also feeling unusually resilient right now, and I think I'll manage to put it in perspective. Some posters understood and appreciated what I was trying to do, and some didn't.
You can't please all the Babblers all the time, I suppose. Especially in such a delicate situation.
I am truly sorry that those who wanted to come and couldn't felt hurt by this event. :(
I hope you (and others) realize that I couldn't feel one whit fonder of you if you lived down the street than I already do.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 9:46:43
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 9:40:04
Maybe the most suitable solution would be to offer to babblemail the epic saga to anyone who wanted to see it.
Posted by Minnie-Haha on June 7, 2005, at 11:31:13
In reply to Re: my two cents - Minnie Ha Ha, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 7:08:00
Sorry, I missed your post yesterday.
> I didn't see the women's group as having anything to do with small boards. As far as I could tell you invited everyone.
I invited all *women* so it was exclusive to a degree. And some people spoke up about that.
> Different thing altogether.
My intention was to exclude men; not because I wanted to hurt or anger them, but because sometimes women (a lot of women I know anyway) have things they don’t want to talk about around men. So it isn't different altogether, IMO, but only to the degree. The women's group was limited by sex; the smaller groups will be limited by size, because some people are uncomfortable in crowds. (Kinda like the small room thing I talked about in a previous post. As long as there's room, you're welcome. When the room is full, you have to wait for someone to leave -- or be inactive, if I remember Dr. Bob's description rightly.)
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 12:52:29
In reply to Re: my two cents » Dinah, posted by Minnie-Haha on June 7, 2005, at 11:31:13
Well, I hadn't seen it that way. But certainly you knew the intent behind your own group better than I.
But as far as the other is concerned, I'd just as soon agree to differ. I think anything else would not be terribly productive.
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