![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 138. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 11:14:57
Hi, everyone,
Sometimes someone posts something and someone else objects.
> If I see a problem with something someone posts, I usually try to explain what it is I see as the problem. If it's the first time for them, I usually just ask them please to be more careful. If I've already done that, I may block them from posting for a period of time.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
OTOH, sometimes I consider the post OK, and one suggestion is:
> it may be best just not to respond
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
-- or not even to read more posts by them.
So here's an idea, what if we adopt another 3-post rule? In this case, a limit of 3 objections per poster -- to posts I consider OK -- per other poster.
Say A objects 3 times to posts by B. If I see a problem with those posts, then I'll enforce the rules, and A has helped me administrate. B may feel angry, but that would be considered an acceptable tradeoff.
If I consider those posts OK, however, it would then be up to A deal in some other way with posts by B, for example, by not even reading them.
A could still object to posts by C, and the 3-post "clock" would start over.
And it would go both ways, B could object to posts by A, but subject again to this 3-post rule.
Any questions? Let me know what you think...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 11:46:38
In reply to Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 11:14:57
Sounds awfully complicated and hard to remember since it applies to each poster. It also may be hard to figure out what constitutes an objection. People appear to have discourse with you or with posters on the same subject on different threads as it pops up over time periods that may span years.
I suggest that before anyone leaps to agree that this sounds like a great rule, that they consider that it's three posts about a single posters posts, which still leaves room for a heck of a lot of objecting, but not room for a heck of a lot of replying to objections even over a long period of time under widely varying circumstances. So that if you have EVER said something that could be considered an objection about XXX's posts, and three months later under different circumstances you have a different objection about XXX's posts, and six months later under different circumstances you have a different objection about XXX's posts. And in each of those cases, Dr. Bob has found XXX's posts to be in compliance with the civility regulations. And XXX decides to count. You are now subject to administrative sanction. Before you endorse this rule, you might want to give some thought to who it will really silence.
Posted by partlycloudy on October 27, 2004, at 13:12:06
In reply to Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 11:14:57
I'm uncomfortable with any rule that keeps track of the number of posts in reply to another's post. I think it stifles the art of communication. Kind of like trying to cram in all the conversation that 50 cents on a payphone will allow. You spend more time thinking about how much time is left, and not enough on what you're trying to say.
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 27, 2004, at 14:12:17
In reply to Re: Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 11:46:38
It could also save alot of pain for others??
Posted by Fi on October 27, 2004, at 14:56:48
In reply to Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 11:14:57
Posted by AuntieMel on October 27, 2004, at 15:01:46
In reply to Re: Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 11:46:38
It seems like another knee-jerk reaction to something that bothers (greatly, I admit) some of the posters.The trade-off?
Like the other three post rule, it seems to me that there would be too much counting going on.
It seems that it would stifle too many people.
and so on, and so on. this was just *my* knee-jerk reaction.
I can see an end-run around the rule. Once you've got your allotted three complaints from poster A you can *carefully* continue what you were doing and just keep on bugging poster A.
Posted by SLS on October 27, 2004, at 15:09:07
In reply to Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 11:14:57
> So here's an idea, what if we adopt another 3-post rule? In this case, a limit of 3 objections per poster -- to posts I consider OK -- per other poster.
My initial reaction is that it sounds rather cumbersome and difficult to administer - especially keeping track of posts - but I guess that's not to be my worry.
> Say A objects 3 times to posts by B. If I see a problem with those posts, then I'll enforce the rules, and A has helped me administrate. B may feel angry, but that would be considered an acceptable tradeoff.Are these to be 3 consecutive posts, or are they cumulative? If after 2 consecutive posts by A, you sanction B, does the clock start over for A relative to B?
> If I consider those posts OK, however, it would then be up to A deal in some other way with posts by B, for example, by not even reading them.
What if B does something horrendous, and you haven't caught it? Wouldn't this be counterproductive?
> Any questions? Let me know what you think...Gosh. I don't know. I don't have a good feeling one way or the other. I don't like what has been happening here, but I am at a loss as to how to remedy it. Maybe your idea is the best that anyone will come up with. However, there are plenty of individuals posting on PB that can serve as subjects for requests for determination such that there may not be a significant impact on the volume of requests in the face of vigilence. If the pool of questioned posts remains predominently from the administration board, your idea might work. I'm not sure this supposition will be demonstrated as true, though.
I hate to see more restrictions. But I hate more watching members of the community leave because of the behavior of a limited number of posters making an unlimited number of requests for determination.
I'm glad I don't have your job.
:-(
- Scott
Posted by coral on October 27, 2004, at 15:51:12
In reply to Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 11:14:57
I believe there should be accountability or consequences (positive or negative) for one’s actions. If someone is requesting a determination on a post and Dr. Hsiung lets the post stand, the requester should receive a PBC. This action should be accumulative, up to and including blocks. If Dr. Hsiung agrees there should be corrective action taken against the noted post, PBC’s should also be given.
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 16:09:34
In reply to Re: Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 11:46:38
That's all I was trying to say. And there's no way to control which edge is going to be used.
There are unintended consequences to rules, and this is one that looks like one with a lot of unintended consequences.
I just ask that everyone think of the poster who nettles them most. Now imagine you have done something that could be considered a complaint twice in the past, but Dr. Bob (perhaps incorrectly) has decided that the posts were within the guidelines of the board. This rule effectively disenfranchises you from speaking. Which is a shame, because in the past, Dr. Bob has been able to see the light about, for example, "nonsupportive" posts.
If that's what people want, that's cool with me. There'll be times I won't be able to speak up for someone, but that's life. As long as people realize that that's what's going to be the result. And as long as people realize that some people are going to wield this double edged sword more effectively than others. As long as people realize that this is yet another rule that is not just going to apply to one situation.
If everyone realizes that and still wants the rule, I think that the consequences are effectively being voted in, and I'll have no problem with them.
Posted by Mark H. on October 27, 2004, at 17:15:43
In reply to Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 11:14:57
I thought the perfect solution would be for people with concerns (including "requests for determination") to email Dr. Bob privately, rather than making a public comment on the Admin board. However, Dr. Bob recently wrote: “Thanks for the suggestion. I know it has its downsides, but overall, I think it's better for this to be out in the open.”
Better for whom? Better for a person who wants all of his or her statements about others to be made in public, where they will have maximum impact on others? Better for Dr. Bob? (How could it be better for you?) Better because it provides public documentation of a difficult administrative process? I'm genuinely at a loss to understand how this is better.
If "requests for determination" are just between Dr. Bob and the concerned poster, as implied by the oft-repeated suggestion that others simply not read them, then why not go all the way and make them private communications? The whole point of this controversy is that they *are* public.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 27, 2004, at 17:36:39
In reply to Re: Private Emails vs Public Posting, posted by Mark H. on October 27, 2004, at 17:15:43
Friends,
The question is;[...are the posts here public?...].
I think that they are. So one solution to this controversy could be for Dr. Hsiung to delete a post that is under "review", on a temporary basis ,and then bring it back on the board with the determination.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 17:53:59
In reply to It's a two edged sword, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 16:09:34
Teachers and managers don't generally feel that they need to have specific rules for any possible situation that arises. They understand that their job is to maintain order and foster the atmosphere to work or learn. I think we should empower Dr. Bob to feel a similar ability to be flexible in the face of unique challenges. To not feel that a rule needs to be in place for every possible contingency.
So if little Fetlock is raising his hand every five minutes to use the restroom, the teacher doesn't have to make a rule limiting the number of potty breaks per child. The teacher can simply tell little Fetlock's parents that once the possibility of an organic disorder is ruled out, that behavior that is disruptive to the class will result in consequences.
Or if little Venezia likes to use purple ink on pink paper to write her homework assignments, the teacher doesn't have to make a rule about purple ink or pink paper. The teacher can just tell Venezia that she's getting a headache trying to read the assignment, and that to better be able to teach her, she has to use colors with more contrast in her assignments in the future, however much the teacher appreciates her creativity.
Or if Malvinia likes to paint her toenails at her reception desk, the boss can ask her to please paint her toenails elsewhere because it's distracting to customers. The boss doesn't have to make a rule about grooming oneself at one's desk.
Dr. Bob, you have a general mandate to moderate. You don't need specific and byzantine rules to do that. Your authority is sufficient. So if you find a behavior disruptive to the stated objective of the board, you can ask the poster to contact you by email to discuss it, or you can use every ounce of creativity you posess to balance appreciation of the poster with a request to change a behavior in a public request. And failure to change the behavior can be sanctioned as a general failure to follow the instructions of the moderator, which I recall as being a sanctionable offense under every teacher I ever had.
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 18:03:29
In reply to My alternate suggestion, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 17:53:59
I didn't make it clear in the above suggestion. The initial request to change a behavior (while being as validating as possible of a poster) would be considered an administrative request, not a sanction. Because, after all, it's unfair to sanction someone for failing to follow rules that don't exist. And that should be clear in the request. Failure to comply with the request would result in sanctions. Because there could be a general rule that failure to comply with moderator requests will result in a PBC, and then blocks. Arguing with the moderator about the request would of course be permissable, unless the request was to quit arguing with the moderator about the request. :)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 27, 2004, at 18:30:11
In reply to Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 11:14:57
Yeah, okay I'll admit I skimmed your post becuase it was complicated!
I am with Dinah on this one. Too many rules, too much complication. To tell you the truth, I don't really read the rules I just try to use my common sense but if I found my common sense to allow me to break a rule I would be interested in the purpose of the rule.
When Kali was here a little while back didn't she have a suggestion or two about moderation WITHOUT so very many rules? Something to do with you just requesting for someone to do or not do something and then explaining why. That sounds reasonable (though time consuming) to me.
Too many rules start to make me want to flout them just because thats the way I react to what I consider 'arbitrary' rules. I think there are many others who are similar (though wouldn't dare speak for everyone).
The boards are hard enough to get ones head around to start with with getting subject headings correct, redirecting threads etc.
Please, don't let common sense fall by the way for the sake of rules.
Posted by Noa on October 27, 2004, at 19:08:58
In reply to Re: Another 3-post rule?, posted by SLS on October 27, 2004, at 15:09:07
I grasp the principle, but the details of these rules are rather difficult for me to follow. Would I get a warning the first time I violated it?
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 19:27:56
In reply to Re: Another 3-post rule?, posted by Noa on October 27, 2004, at 19:08:58
> I'm uncomfortable with any rule that keeps track of the number of posts in reply to another's post.
>
> partlycloudyThat's the other 3-post rule:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040927/msgs/396704.html
--
> I can see an end-run around the rule. Once you've got your allotted three complaints from poster A you can *carefully* continue what you were doing and just keep on bugging poster A.
>
> AuntieMelNo, that would be the rule working. If what you're doing is OK, you *should* be able to continue without being complained about...
--
> Are these to be 3 consecutive posts, or are they cumulative? If after 2 consecutive posts by A, you sanction B, does the clock start over for A relative to B?
Consecutive posts is the other 3-post rule. This would be cumulative. If A complains twice and I sanction B once, then that would be 1 cumulative "false positive".
> > If I consider those posts OK, however, it would then be up to A deal in some other way with posts by B, for example, by not even reading them.
>
> What if B does something horrendous, and you haven't caught it?
>
> - Scott1. Other posters can let me know.
2. A can always "save" a complaint for a situation like that.--
> I just ask that everyone think of the poster who nettles them most. Now imagine you have done something that could be considered a complaint twice in the past, but Dr. Bob (perhaps incorrectly) has decided that the posts were within the guidelines of the board. This rule effectively disenfranchises you from speaking.
>
> DinahSorry, I lost you there, why would you be disenfranchised?
--
> I thought the perfect solution would be for people with concerns (including "requests for determination") to email Dr. Bob privately, rather than making a public comment on the Admin board. However, Dr. Bob recently wrote: “Thanks for the suggestion. I know it has its downsides, but overall, I think it's better for this to be out in the open.”
>
> Better for whom?I think it's like having PBCs out in the open:
> When posters are considered by the author not to have been civil, messages to that effect are posted. Others would do this privately, by email, and that would have the advantage of being less embarrassing. If done with sensitivity, however, posting offers the advantages of clarifying the limits for others, modeling conflict resolution, diminishing any paranoia about activity “behind the scenes,” and allowing others to contribute to the process.
http://www.dr-bob.org/download/CP_3_6_p935-950.pdf
--
> Teachers and managers don't generally feel that they need to have specific rules for any possible situation that arises. They understand that their job is to maintain order and foster the atmosphere to work or learn. I think we should empower Dr. Bob to feel a similar ability to be flexible in the face of unique challenges. To not feel that a rule needs to be in place for every possible contingency.
It started that way, I wanted to be able to be flexible about what was considered civil -- and look where we are now! But I do think it's better to have it spelled out:
1. It's more predictable for posters.
2. And it's also easier for me. And for substitute teachers.> Dr. Bob, you have a general mandate to moderate. You don't need specific and byzantine rules to do that. Your authority is sufficient. So if you find a behavior disruptive to the stated objective of the board, you can ask the poster to contact you by email to discuss it, or you can use every ounce of creativity you posess to balance appreciation of the poster with a request to change a behavior in a public request.
>
> DinahBut if I can articulate what's disruptive, why not use my authority (and creativity) to make a rule? This may now be more like a company than an office, and companies have policies and procedures...
--
> Too many rules start to make me want to flout them just because thats the way I react to what I consider 'arbitrary' rules.
>
> alexandra_kBut these aren't arbitrary! :-)
--
> Would I get a warning the first time I violated it?
Sure, like with all the other ones.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 19:39:26
In reply to Re: Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 19:27:56
And the previous 3 post rule accomplished it's purpose so very well that it's clearly time for another one.
You are, of course, free to do as you will, Dr. Bob.
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 19:55:01
In reply to Re: Another 3-post rule? » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on October 27, 2004, at 18:30:11
Alexandra, if you as a person who dislikes arbitrary rules are concerned, imagine how it must feel for someone who *likes* rules as much as I do to feel so aghast. I'm starting to get that homeowner association feeling here. Gasp. Air! I need air!
Posted by alexandra_k on October 27, 2004, at 20:40:57
In reply to Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 11:14:57
why not a 2 post rule?
Why not a 3 post rule?
Why not a 4 post rule?
Why not a 5 post rule?The number of posts what what I meant was arbitrary.
If you pick 2 I'll be tempted to do 3
If you pick 3 I'll be tempted to do 4
If you pick 4 I'll be tempted to do 5...I am contrary (sigh).
The trouble with rules is that there are always 'common sense' exceptions (consider Kant's moral laws and the exceptions we want to make for contextual factors).
My concern is that by posting a 'rule' then if someone breaks it then someone else may well be tempted to require 'determination', and some people are more or less sensitive to how context can moderate rules.
While I appreciate that you probably think that the rule will prevent that becoming a problem, I am tempted to test context.
Why must we resort to rules rules and more rules?
That makes me very sad indeed.
I just trust my common sense best I can, and trust yours enough so that you realise I am doing that and so I trust I will not be blocked for breaking some arbitrary and obscure rule that you have to enforce regardless of context because it is there in the authorised version of the posting rules.Sigh. Perhaps I should avoid admin...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 27, 2004, at 20:47:33
In reply to clarification of 'arbitrary' » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on October 27, 2004, at 20:40:57
Posted by gardenergirl on October 27, 2004, at 21:46:51
In reply to Re: Another 3-post rule?, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 19:27:56
> > Are these to be 3 consecutive posts, or are they cumulative? If after 2 consecutive posts by A, you sanction B, does the clock start over for A relative to B?
>
> Consecutive posts is the other 3-post rule. This would be cumulative. If A complains twice and I sanction B once, then that would be 1 cumulative "false positive".I'm lost here. Could you please explain this concept about false positives etc?
And by the way, I am in the camp that we don't need a new rule for every new circumstance that comes up. It starts becoming way too complicated, and another word that likely could be pereceived as uncivil, so I won't use it.
My city has a law in the charters that essentially says you can't pass a law which offers protection against discrimination for gays, lesbians, bi-sexuals, and trans-sexuals. Now, first, I have a problem with that anyway. But a law that says you can't pass a law is redundant.
I feel like we're getting too many micro-rules here, and I think for a seasoned poster to get confused, just imagine how intimidating and confusing it could be for new posters!
gg
Just my $65...(trying to get used to charging psych. fees... ;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 27, 2004, at 21:51:35
In reply to I was following until now...Now I'm lost » Dr. Bob, posted by gardenergirl on October 27, 2004, at 21:46:51
I agree with all except the $65. Common gg, your words are worth much more than that :-)
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 27, 2004, at 21:59:41
In reply to I was following until now...Now I'm lost » Dr. Bob, posted by gardenergirl on October 27, 2004, at 21:46:51
gg,
You wrote, [...imagine how intimidating...].
I am familiar with the "gay rights" law in your city and it has gone back and forth, if this is what you are referring to in your post as to in housing and workplace, etc..
I belive that your point is that, why does there have to be a law, one way or the other, concerniong discrimination in housing in the first place? Is this what you are trying to say in your post? And then that could be applied here in this case in question? If so, then I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Lou
Posted by gardenergirl on October 27, 2004, at 22:00:06
In reply to I was following until now...Now I'm lost » Dr. Bob, posted by gardenergirl on October 27, 2004, at 21:46:51
I'd like to try to reframe one of the issues at hand as I am understanding it...people's response to having their own or other posts submitted for administrative review...
I can certainly understand how it must feel to have your post submitted. And I admit I have wondered in the past if one of mine might receive the same scrutiny. I don't think that would feel good to me.
BUT...what if someone looks at the number of requests made over say a month period here on the board? And counts the number of times Bob has agreed and provided some kind of correction or sanction? I haven't done this myself, but one of the tools of CBT and cognitive restructuring is to look at the reality and the evidence. Anecdotally, my sense is that many more requests have been deemed "okay" and let stand versus resulted in some action by Dr. Bob. If that holds, and I sure hope someone undertakes this task...then the odds of administrative sanction are small compared to the number of requests.
Let's assume for the moment that this is indeed the reality. Would it help to then re-frame the requests for administrative review as an individual behavior rather than a judgement on your post? If the person requesting the review is (and I am talking about Lou here, just to be direct) using a different standard than Dr. Bob, we need to remind ourselves just who's standard is the one to follow.
If we can have some faith in Dr. Bob and our peers in viewing Lou's requests for determination as Lou's behavior and standards, and not necessarily those of the rest of the board, would it feel as bad? Could we possibly view it as something that exists mainly between Lou and Dr. Bob?
I realize I have not had one of my own put up by Lou for determination, so I can only empathize about how it would feel to try to reframe in this way. But what if we all tried it? Perhaps we can then either choose not to read the posts or skim them, or read and view them as an individual need.
And along the same lines, can we separate the behavior from the poster? Because as Dinah and Scott have both said in the past, there is much more to Lou than this issue. I'm glad I got to know more about him recently.
What do you think? (I admit I'm working on CBT skills, so those of you with experience with it, please feel free to give me feedback..either here or via Babblemail...)
Thanks,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on October 27, 2004, at 22:14:04
In reply to Lou's response to gardengirl » gardenergirl, posted by Lou Pilder on October 27, 2004, at 21:59:41
Hmmmm, as I was writing it, I wasn't sure how my own upset with my city's charter relates to this argument. I appreciate your working with me to clarify it. Actually, I don't think I'm saying that there should be no anti-discrimination laws, for example with regards to housing. Instead, I object to the original charter amendment (XII, in Cincy) that says no law can be passed offering protection for this group.
First, I believe that this group deserves protection, but that is a debate for another time ;-). But I also object to the principle of bad or frivoulous laws. I think in this case, passing (or maintaining) a law that says you can't pass another kind of law is redundant. Why not just put it to the voters about whether we want to offer protection from discrimination for this group? Instead, the voters do not get a chance to make their opinions heard and effect change (or leave things as they are). Article XII takes that right away from me, to decide if I want to agree or disagree with such legislation. (That's why I will be voting on Tuesday to repeal Article XII).
I'm guessing the reason I brought it up here (and disclosed way more about my city and views than perhaps I will be comfortable with tomorrow), is that I feel like Dr. Bob's creating a new rule and offering it for comment has evoked in me the same kind of feeling of helplessness that Article XII does. I don't really get a say, as it appeared that he had already decided before much Babble comment.
Wow, I know I am rambling, and this may not have made things any clearer. (Welcome to the way GG's brain works!)
Take care,
gg
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