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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by undopaminergic on May 13, 2021, at 3:03:50
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on May 12, 2021, at 17:32:32
> Same with a guy in Germany I believe is where he lives first dose Astra Zeneca then his second dose is Pfizer ...
>Are you referring to me? I'm further north of Germany.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2021, at 9:21:46
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how » Phillipa, posted by undopaminergic on May 13, 2021, at 3:03:50
Yes so not Germany What Country are you in? And Does this mean than Astra Zeneca is not being used there anymore. I read a few Scandinavian Countries I think were no longer using the vaccine and just Pfizer. Any truth in this? Thanks Phillipa
Posted by undopaminergic on May 13, 2021, at 9:32:04
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how » undopaminergic, posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2021, at 9:21:46
> Yes so not Germany What Country are you in?
Nordic. I don't currently want to be more precise here in public.
> And Does this mean than Astra Zeneca is not being used there anymore. I read a few Scandinavian Countries I think were no longer using the vaccine and just Pfizer. Any truth in this? Thanks Phillipa
>I don't know, I don't follow the news. A lot of what I know about these vaccines came from this very site.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2021, at 10:33:52
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how » Phillipa, posted by undopaminergic on May 13, 2021, at 9:32:04
That's fine and don't blame you for not disclosing. So you haven't studied the vaccines? I get updates each evening on what is new with each one. Some could copy and paste if there is interest? Phillipa
Posted by undopaminergic on May 13, 2021, at 11:32:20
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how » undopaminergic, posted by Phillipa on May 13, 2021, at 10:33:52
> That's fine and don't blame you for not disclosing. So you haven't studied the vaccines? I get updates each evening on what is new with each one. Some could copy and paste if there is interest? Phillipa
>I haven't investigated the vaccines, but I've read about them here in passing, and I've heard bits and pieces from my surroundings. If I needed/wanted to know more, I'm sure Google would help.
-undopaminergic
Posted by alexandra_k on May 16, 2021, at 23:43:41
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on May 12, 2021, at 17:32:32
i don't know.
i wrote a thesis in 2018. i know that i am a product of my surroundings etc etc and i pick up my ideas from exposure to various things...
i was saying, though, about the new zealand government's repeated refusal to look after the health of it's people.
i was toying / playing / thinking... i was thinking about whether the greatest source of oppression for the people of new zealand was a local thing or a distant thing.
i mean to say whether the new zealand government was, through maliciousness or greed or whatever... the biggest threat. the biggest stabauteur... of the people of new zealand...
whether people or forces further afield were more likely to be benevolent or malficient. whether the new zealand governments desire not to pay it's workers... to raise many many many gamma babies in substandard and inhumane abusive conditions in order to... coax... train... them into being grateful for whatever tiny scraps the government saw fit to throw them...
thinking though these things...
thinking about information. whether the new zealand government uses information about it's people to furtehr oppress and hold it's people back as hostages. as slaves...
or whether the new zealand government would use information about it's own people to furtehr the interests of the people in kind and benevolent ways in the face of international exploitation.
and i pretty much came to the conclusion that the new zealand government seems to be the worst offender. holding local slaves.
i said about vaccinations... and about how tempting it would be to provide different batches to different people if there was control of the supply chain (if you could control who would get what and when) and use that for.... well... malevolent?? intent?
about how the new zealand governent neded to step up and actually help it's people. show that it was... ethical. humane. good. do the right signalling so we get to do business with people who are comparable.
instead of signalling we are always looking to take the low road of exploitation...
and then covid comes along.
and then vaccinations come along.
and then the district health board members arrange for their friends and family to get the vaccine ahead of their turn.
and then that is documented.
so we know who got their vaccination when. we know who chose to jump the cue. and so on.
maybe itwill lead to them being promoted?
they seem to think that's how the world works.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 16, 2021, at 23:48:01
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by alexandra_k on May 16, 2021, at 23:43:41
ashley bloomfiled (the director general of health) gets paid around half a million new zealand dollars per year from the government to do his job. no matter who wins the election. he's part of the administration.
he ordered a lockdown of the country. it was unlawful. that is to say he failed to do the things that he was required to do in order to make the lockdown lawful.
teh consequences for him in ordering an unlawful lockdown were...
he was informed what he did was unlawful. that's it. that's the consequence. that is to say there were no consequences.
he said the one thing he regretted was that he didn't keep a diary.
documenting how much money the new zealand government pays him to violate the law with impunity in the course of him doing his job (teh job for which he is paid).
what a joke
Posted by SLS on May 17, 2021, at 12:04:52
In reply to Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2021, at 9:12:37
Unlike the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer; Moderna), vector-based vaccines (Johnson & Johnson; AstraZeneca), are produced by transplanting a piece of the SARS-CoV-2 DNA that encodes for the coronavirus antigen into a harmless adenovirus (like the common cold). The adenovirus is the vector. The transplanted DNA encodes for a piece of protein that is normally found on the spikes on the surface of the coronavirus. When the vector virus penetrates a healthy body cell, it releases the coronavirus DNA into the main cytoplasm (as opposed to the nucleus). There, the cell is instructed by the DNA to build its own spike proteins and erect them on the surface of its outer cell membrane. This is in contrast to the mRNA vaccines, which instruct the body cell to manufacture the antigen protein, but then releases it into the blood stream instead. With both types of vaccines, the immune system is provoked into producing antibodies in response to the presence of the spike protein antigen.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on May 17, 2021, at 23:26:22
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by SLS on May 17, 2021, at 12:04:52
Does the J&J stay in your body forever or like a cold or flu eventually exit your body? The mrna doesn't ever leave your body does it? And since got the J&J what happens if require a booster do you feel by then they will allow mixing of vaccines as would prefer the Pfizer? Thanks for your post Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2021, at 5:37:35
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how » SLS, posted by Phillipa on May 17, 2021, at 23:26:22
they think the mrna and dna (from both types of vaccine) are both broken down by the body and removed entirely. they are both only in the body temporarily.
the mrna and dna are (both ultimately) translated into antigens (proteins) which are released from the cell. the spike protein antigens are identified by the t cells and b cells (i forget the precise role of t cells). the b cells make antibodies and also the b cells make more copies of themself (colonal expansion) so that next time the body is exposed to the virus a lot of antibodies can be produced very quickly.
the capacity to produce a lot of antibodies very quickly on exposure is immunological memory. that just is immunity.
________________
some people have immunity to adenovirus. that means that the way in which the J&J vaccine works (by using adenovirus to help it get into the cell) isn't as effective for some people. some people's body destroys the vaccine before it can do it's work inside the cell. they think that increased immunity to adenovirus is one mechanism resulting in less efficacy for traditional vaccines that use adenovirus as a vector to get inside the cell.
_________________
they are starting to look, now, at how the bodies immune response is more complicated than we thought...
think about banana. how it tastes. then think about 'nature identical' banana flavoring produced in a laboratory. natural biological molecules are very large and very complicated and there are many different 'active' regions, if you like. synthetics just pick out one or two active regions that they think are responsible for most of the effect and they amplify or copy those.
they think that the bodies natural immune response to Covid is actually quite complicated. with antibodies grabbing onto different regions of the spike protein etc. our immunisations aren't as sophisticated or complex. the particular part of the spike protein that they code for...
Posted by Phillipa on May 27, 2021, at 9:02:50
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2021, at 5:37:35
Alex so then our bodies do not keep these vaccines inside us forever then they are eliminated. Through what mechanism do they leave urine, liver, stool? So if you got a vaccine which type would you chose if had a choice. Since they the medical say these are not actually vaccines but the small pox & polio are how are they different? Phillipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on May 27, 2021, at 9:53:52
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on May 27, 2021, at 9:02:50
+1 The body stops producing whatever it produces from the mrna right?
> Alex so then our bodies do not keep these vaccines inside us forever then they are eliminated. Through what mechanism do they leave urine, liver, stool?
Posted by Phillipa on May 27, 2021, at 10:06:59
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by Lamdage22 on May 27, 2021, at 9:53:52
I don't know hoping Alex does know. Phillipa
Posted by undopaminergic on May 27, 2021, at 11:27:43
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by Lamdage22 on May 27, 2021, at 9:53:52
> +1 The body stops producing whatever it produces from the mrna right?
>As I understand it:
As the mRNA is metabolised, the cells stops producing whatever protein it encodes.
-undopaminergic
Posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 5:25:36
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by undopaminergic on May 27, 2021, at 11:27:43
um...
usually DNA -> mRNA -> protein.
people-cells have the DNA contained within the nucleus.
The DNA vaccines contain a fragment of DNA (not an entire chromosome or anything like that) and they use the shell of an adenovirus to get inside the nucleus. I think that is the idea. adenovirus is unique. it is the only virus that manages to deliver it's contents into the nucleus. other DNA viruses don't manage to get the DNA into the nucleus, i think. i think that's right. That's why a lot of the research focuses on using adenovirus as a vector to deliver DNA contents inside the cells. Because it can get the contents into the nucleus.
So the DNA vaccines contain a fragment of DNA and an adenovirus shell. I think I read somewhere that the introduced DNA would only likely last in the body up to a couple days or something like that before being degraded. I suppose it would break down into the bases from which is is built. Purines and pyramidines. A. C. T. G.
Now that I say it I wonder why it does degrade rather than persisting like the rest of the DNA that is inside the cell. I suppose regular DNA is wound up into a double helix to protect it when it isn't actively being transcribed into mRNA or being replicated into DNA. I don't know. But they do think that it does degrade and get eliminated by the body.
The adenovirus shell is made from protein. That would break down into aminio acids.
The DNA makes mRNA which is broken down... The spike protein is the end product. The spike protein is released from the cell and antibodies find it and clear it.
So the aim or end goal is the production of an increased population of plasma cells (b cells) that are able to quickly produce antibodies if the virus is detected in the system again. That just is immunity.
___________________
With the mrna vaccines they deliver mrna to the cytosol or cytoplasm. The mrna is translated into protein. Then things are the same from there. I don't think the mrna ones were using reverse transcriptase to make DNA... But either way... the mrna gets broken down into purine and pyramidine bases, again. A. C. U. G. I htink it is thymine being replaced by uricil in mrna...
____________________
I did read recently that the DNA or mRNA that was introduced to the body in the vaccines is degraded within a few days. It persists only really long enough to get into the target location in the cell (the nucleus or the cytosol) and then enough mrna copies are made so that enough spike proteins are made so that enough T cells and B cells are activated so that enough b cells make plasma cells which persist... With the longer-term ability to produce lots of antibodies to spike protein next time the body encounters the virus.
the idea of booster shots is that the population of plasma cells that respond diminishes over time so the immunity isn't as great as we would like. which is to say that if the body encounters the virus it might not be able to mount enough of a response to neutralise it when the virus is busy replicating itself inside the body.
i don't know if this make sense or helps.
i'll try and find the link for the source of the info
Posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 5:42:31
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 5:25:36
actually the virus shell will be lipid with spike proteins. but these things are degraded the way they usually are. they don't persist in the body, they don't think.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6274812/
huh. well that's weird. it's saying that DNA vaccines are new technolgy... they are concerned about persistence of DNA as plasmids in animal cells.
hmm...
> Compared with some of the newer, experimental technologiessuch as Modernas mRNA vaccine, which was the first to enter human trials in the USadenoviral vectors are touted as a more tried-and-true approach. J&J calls its adenoviral vector platform a proven technology. While adenoviral vectors have been tested in far more people than mRNA vaccines, the technology is used in only one commercial vaccine today: a rabies vaccine used to immunize wild animals. So far, no adenoviral vector vaccines have demonstrated they can prevent disease in humans.
https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/vaccines/Adenoviral-vectors-new-COVID-19/98/i19
huh. they think that after having 1 dose of an adenovirus vaccine the body will likely not allow a second because you will have developed immunity to the adenovirus... but the adenovirus is the common cold... which nobody has immunity from. yeah?? so... who knows. hmm...
most of the focus seems to have been a concern to deliver ENOUGH of an immune response.
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Posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 5:46:07
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 5:42:31
I don't know which one I would choose. I don't know of any reason that I find complelling as to why I would be better to choose one over another.
I suppose I might try and stay away from the ones that used Chimpanzees in the making of. On ethical grounds. But I don't know enough about the development and manufacture of other ones to know that they are any better.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 6:01:03
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 5:46:07
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine.html
It sounds like they don't know.
in the J&J and other DNA viruses DNA is delivered into the nucleus. The DNA is a short fragment (not a whole chromosome or anything). It is capable of being translated into mRNA and the mRNA is capable of making a fragment of the spike protein found on the outside shell of Coronavirus which is recognised as an antigen by the body.
I think we don't know how long that DNA fragment lives inside the cells nucleus.
It is capable of doing a 'jumping gene' thing and permanently getting inside the DNA? Maybe. Which cells in particular does the DNA get inside, anyway? All the cells? Or just a few from the respiratory tract... I don't even know that.
Plasmids are a bit different. Bacteria don't have compartments. Their DNA is in the cytoplasm and they make protein from mRNA in the cytoplasm. Animal cells are different where the DNA is contained inside the nucleus and the proteins are made (and folded) in a protected compartment the endoplasmic reticulum...
People don't have plasmids... Little circuluar bits of accessory DNA... I don't know... We don't know..
Likely it is degraded.
I guess they will want to be measuring the blood to see teh levels of spike protein that are being produced by the body to see for how long the DNA is being made into mRNA and protein by the body, anyway. But that doesn't tell us whether or not it has been degraded by teh cell, I suppose. I don't know. LIkely it makes mRNA until it's worn out / degraded. I don't know.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 6:04:24
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 6:01:03
all the introduced DNA does is make a fragment of the spike protein.
it is recognised as an antigen by the body. that means the body will make antibodies to clear it away.
but the spike protein is harmless.
i don't think there have been cases of people... sort of... producing vast volumes of the spike protein that congeal into... amyloid... agglutinate into... clot... i don't know...
Posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 6:49:35
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 5:42:31
sigh.
the 'information' we have been getting online is not as clear as it could (and should) have been.
mrna vaccines deliver mrna. mrna typically or usually degrades after a few days in the cytosol. it is reasonable to expect that mrna introduced with vaccine would degrade the same as mrna produced by the cell. so it would enter into the purine / pyramidine synthesis / recycle / elimination (via urine) pathway.
j&j and astrazenica deliver dna. they use adenovirus to get the dna all the way into the nucleus. it isn't an 'older and safer' technology at all. it is a very new technology and it is actually concerning what will happen to the dna that has been introduced into the nucleus imho.
they think it will only introduce a little bit of dna that codes for a harmeless (though antigen producing) bit of the spike protein.
but there are concerns around...
so, this new piece of dna has been introduced. how often will it be transcribed? will it hijack / take over so that other bits of dna won't be translated? that could kill the cell. so... how many cells are getting infected with the vaccine and what kind of insult will there be to the body if they turn out to basically spam spike protein instead of doing anything else?
the issue they are asking is: well... is there any evidence that the new piece of dna can get into germ line cells?
that is to say the gonads.
that is to say that the dna could be incorporated into the chromosome and passed on to children.
and evidence is a bit unlcear...
so...
now i am thinking...
that the reason why they suggested it for older people and halted it in younger people... was because of concerns that the DNA is being integrated into the chromosome or persisting as plasmid in the nucleus. making too much mrna / too much antigen.
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it seems / feels like every day there is a new piece of information that makes me think differently about which is safest or best or whatever. The clotting thing was very very rare. stil. very very rare. i still don't know wha tthe clots are made from...
Posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 6:55:07
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 6:49:35
they were saying the clots were like heparin induced thrombocytopenia.
but that is different from my first thought that it was something potentially to do with protein misfolding from the body spamming out spike protein. the proteins were congealing weirdly in the blood.
or maybe the clots werent' formed from that... maybe they were immunoglobulin-protein complexes. there are different kinds of antibodies... maybe they are getting an IgM (clotting or agglutinating) response in some people rather than an IgG response.
I don't know.
Posted by SLS on May 30, 2021, at 21:59:16
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by SLS on May 17, 2021, at 12:04:52
The New York Yankees baseball team was injected with the J&J vaccine. Afterwards, 3 or more tested positive for coronavirus.
For now, I'm still wearing my mask until someone can assure me that breathing in coronavirus won't do any damage before they are overwhelmed by antibodies and the rest of the immune system. In other words, what, if any, damage is sustained before the virus is intercepted by antibodies. Is there a lag that allows time for the damage to accumulate. Remember, though, it is not the virus that creates all of the damage. At some point, the virus provokes the release of a hugely exaggerated inflammation response - a "cytokine storm". Too many white blood cells attack the inner lining of blood vessels, and make them leak blood into tissues. On the other hand, blood clots can form also. It is bewildering.
- Scott
Posted by Beckett2 on June 6, 2021, at 7:51:16
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how » Phillipa, posted by undopaminergic on May 13, 2021, at 11:32:20
Thought of you: https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1345926734227664901?s=12
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2021, at 13:43:20
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by SLS on May 30, 2021, at 21:59:16
> The New York Yankees baseball team was injected with the J&J vaccine. Afterwards, 3 or more tested positive for coronavirus.
I don't know if production of the spike protein triggers a positive test? I don't suppose it would otherwise the vaccine would undermine the integrity of the test...
> For now, I'm still wearing my mask until someone can assure me that breathing in coronavirus won't do any damage before they are overwhelmed by antibodies and the rest of the immune system. In other words, what, if any, damage is sustained before the virus is intercepted by antibodies. Is there a lag that allows time for the damage to accumulate.
I don't know. It can't hurt to wear a mask, I don't think.
> Remember, though, it is not the virus that creates all of the damage. At some point, the virus provokes the release of a hugely exaggerated inflammation response - a "cytokine storm". Too many white blood cells attack the inner lining of blood vessels, and make them leak blood into tissues. On the other hand, blood clots can form also. It is bewildering.
Yeah... I forgot about leaking blood into the tissues and clots. They thought those were similar in mechanism to heparin induced thrombocytopenia. They know already that it isn't only induced by heparin. It can be induced by other drugs and also it can induced by viruses. The antibodies that the body produces (I think that is right) activate the platelets. So the platelets form clots. Then the platelets are all used up.
It was relatively recently that I understood that the platelets are sort of dynamically active to prevent blood leaking out of the small vessels. Like how receptor proteins are dynamically flipping into or out of cell membranes. A certain level of platelets or whatever is required to be attending to the walls of the small vessels otherwise you start to leak blood. So if the platelets are all used up attending to the antibodies forming clots with them then there aren't any attending to the walls. So blood leaks. They get activated irrevokably. I think that's the idea... So they are basically taken out of action.
Does that make sense? Of the clots together with bleeding out?
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2021, at 13:52:53
In reply to Re: Johnson + Johnson vaccine can someone explain how, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2021, at 13:43:20
https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/201722-overview
actually here, there is an immune one specifically.
they say the antibodies actually attach to or bind to the platelets.
antibodies bound to platelets are removed by the macrophage of the spleen.
so then low levels of platelets.
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the issue is that antibodies aren't as specific as we like to think.
it is likely part of a normal robust healthy immune response for the body to selectively produce a few different antibodies that are responsive to different parts of the pathogen.
but it is possible that each of those antibodies has a broader target then intended. they may cross-react to something else in the body.
platelets. or the particular kind of collagen found lining heart valves or...
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