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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 45 to 69 of 125. Go back in thread:
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 6:54:40
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 1:29:44
> > I try to look at all sides. I try to understand the possibilities of all sides. [...]
>
> I think the argument here is that all treatments (including conventional and alternative) work, they just work for different people. If so, then it would make sense to take a trial-and-error approach, and it would not make sense to criticize anyone else's choices. If Lou says the advice from his vision of the Rider on the white horse cured him, that's right for him. If Hello321 says Grain Brain cured them, that's right for them. If others say that psych med combos keep them functional, that's right for them.
>
> As it turns out though, it's more difficult than you might think to tell if a treatment works. Here is a good summary of ways people can be fooled. http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altbelief.html
>
> It's also pretty easy to make up a treatment. You just come up with a plausible sounding argument and add some testimonials. If you want to appeal to the more science-minded folks, you can claim it is "evidence-based" and add reference notes to some studies that, on closer inspection, turn out to be of poor quality or irrelevant to the question of whether the treatment works on humans.
>
> Nobody has time to try every treatment under the sun. Some of them (such as special diets and supplement regimens) take months and hundreds of dollars to try. Given the human tendency to be poor at judging whether a treatment works or not, it's a better use of time to try approaches with better evidence first. FDA approval is a good low water mark.
>
> Once you get into the non-FDA-approved stuff, it's very unlikely that the treatment has been tested on humans in controlled experiments. Testimonials and self-experimentation are much poorer evidence than controlled experiments.
Exactly. Just wanted to make sure thecword was getting out.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:02:12
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 6:54:40
But to the last part, I learned my lesson with waiting for the FDA to let me know what I should and shouldn't be doing to help myself.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:34:49
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:02:12
I'm sorry but it's just how I feel. People come home from the doctor feeling hopeless sometimes, because of what ever news they did or didn't get. And I see this as unnecessary because there's often more that can be done than what ever treatment is given from the doctor. Nobody cares about you or your well-being than yourself. Nobody should be putting in more effort to feel better than yourself. (Not directed at you). And I feel that reading research articles on sites like pubmed about any topic that I run across that interests me has been a big help. It has made it clear to me that there's much more knowledge available than what is presented to the public. We get a dumbed down version of it that actually is bad for us in some cases. Today's leading science/medical knowledge can take decades before it makes its way to the public in the form of treatment for a particular condition. Or just in the form of advice, like what a healthy diet should generally consist of. The Food Pyramid, or today's "MyPlate" I think it's called is downright misleading with how much it supports eating more bread, pasta, oats, etc...
This is why I've talked about knowledge being power. The knowledge that could give us more options to improve our lives isnt very difficult to access. But I think lack of desire and motivation often hold people back. This, along anxiety that can come along with trying to take full control of ones treatment for their condition. I see the things like the white coats that doctors wear as being calming for people.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 8:42:02
In reply to I'm sorry, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:34:49
.
Posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2016, at 9:33:56
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 1:29:44
Tabitha you last two responses are just what I personally needed to hear. Thank you so much Phillipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:10:05
In reply to Re: Science. » SLS, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 14:23:19
Another "enlightened" preacher:)
PB seems to create them somehow.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:19:11
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:10:05
America just really loves doctors that write books where they think they have the cure for all the evils in the world.
And Grain Brain sounds exactly like that.
Sensation sells.
If you count on that for your recovery, i cant stop you.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:27:32
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:19:11
These books seem like they are all written by the same person.
Think about it.
How many people eat grains? How many people are depressed? Do you notice something? Nutrition, for most people is not the reason why they are depressed. As simple as that. I used to buy those books, too. Not anymore. The less spiritual chitchat i consume, the better i can think.
Maybe i should write a book:)
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:28:07
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:27:32
These books are a plague that seems to preferably hit America.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 13:17:41
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:28:07
I will give you that maybe nutrition and exercise are the last 10-15% towards complete remission.
They are not however a cure-all.
Posted by J Kelly on April 19, 2016, at 13:25:39
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:27:32
>
> Maybe i should write a book:)
>Lamdage you make me lol (not to make light of this thread)
Jade
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 13:47:45
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:28:07
> These books are a plague that seems to preferably hit America.
Come on Lamdage, at least present some info that would suggest I'm as "off my rocker" as you suggest.
While after a short search, I didn't come up with "mainstream" sources of information that show a possible link between carbohydrates and depression. Probably because I'm not in the mood to look up a lot of things right now...
...Here are some articles showing a link between excessive carb consumption and other brain disorders.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082091http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/
http://www.alzheimers.net/2013-11-04/do-carbs-and-gluten-cause-alzheimers/
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/do-carbs-cause-alzheimers
I'm not trying to present any idea that I'm 100% correct. But I'm trying to show that the typical diet we rat might just contribute/cause mental health problems.
I want to know just why many people
start thinking "crazy conspiracy theorist" every time something outside general public opinion is brought up? We call people "sheep" when they only buy into what the authorities tell them, unless we also buy into it.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 13:50:43
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:28:07
> These books are a plague that seems to preferably hit America.
Come on Lamdage, at least present some info that would suggest I'm as "off my rocker" as you suggest.
While after a short search, I didn't come up with "mainstream" sources of information that show a possible link between carbohydrates and depression. Probably because I'm not in the mood to look up a lot of things right now...
...Here are some articles showing a link between excessive carb consumption and other brain disorders.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082091http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/
http://www.alzheimers.net/2013-11-04/do-carbs-and-gluten-cause-alzheimers/
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/do-carbs-cause-alzheimers
I'm not trying to present any idea that I'm 100% correct. But I'm trying to show that the typical diet we rat might just contribute/cause mental health problems.
I want to know just why many people
start thinking "crazy conspiracy theorist" every time something outside general public opinion is brought up? We call people "sheep" when they only buy into what the authorities tell them, unless we also buy into it.
Posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 14:37:08
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 0:52:57
> You guys are making it more and more obvious that you 100% deserve the stigma that you experience by closing off any suggestion that there's a world of help beyond more pills. You're being just as closed minded as someone who says it's all in your head, pills don't work, that you just need willpower. The next time you experience any negativity because of the stigma exists, remember this, please. The irony blows my mind.
I'm open to any suggestion, but once the suggestion has been made, I want to evaluate the evidence for it before trying it. Good evidence includes having a foundation in basic science followed by controlled experiments on humans with good quality studies (large sample size, randomization, double-blinding, peer-review of the results) and subsequent FDA approval (demonstrating safety, efficacy, dosage, and continued monitoring for side effects in users after the approval process). This doesn't mean "pills only". Any treatment can be methodically tested and subject to peer review and FDA approval.
As I said, FDA approval is a low water mark for me, meaning that's the minimum level of evidence that makes something worth trying. I generally prefer to use things that have been FDA approved and also in use long enough for additional trials to replicate results and for long-term side effects to become known.
I don't think it makes sense to describe having such standards of evidence as being "closed minded". I think of it as making smart use of my limited time and money.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 16:08:11
In reply to Re: being closed minded » Hello321, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 14:37:08
I see. Well I hope I've helped at least one person by the suggestions I've made. And there are many other options out there as well. That if someone runs into a roadblock with medications, or they're just not up for trying another pill, they will consider other options they normally wouldn't have considered.
One thing I've noticed about myself. I've been sensitive to high pitched sounds sounds for a few months now, like squealing brakes or little kids screaming. After a high pitched sound would hit me, I'd feel listless afterwards. And during the time I did eat very few carbohydrates for about a month, I became noticeably less sensitive to high pitched sounds. At the time I didn't attribute it to the diet, and I'm still not sure. But ever since I started back on carbs, my sensitivity has slowly come back. I went mostly back to my normal diet because of something in my low carb diet causing me stomach cramps. But i just got back from Walmart with plenty of low carb, high fiber and moderate protein foods and I'm going to try eating low carb again. I'm thinking the bowl of heavy cream, Coconut and cocoa powder and stevia snack I had been eating regularly is likely the culprit, though. Lol. It was good though.
Posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 16:53:37
In reply to Re: being closed minded » Tabitha, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 16:08:11
> I'm thinking the bowl of heavy cream, Coconut and cocoa powder and stevia snack I had been eating regularly is likely the culprit, though. Lol. It was good though.
We agree on that-- it does sound good! Except I would use real sugar ;-)
Posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2016, at 18:14:59
In reply to Re: being closed minded » Tabitha, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 16:08:11
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/16/stevia-what-is-it_n_5983772.html
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 18:39:34
In reply to Re: being closed minded » Hello321, posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2016, at 18:14:59
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/16/stevia-what-is-it_n_5983772.html
Thanks. And yeah, Stevia isn't perfect. But I think it's a much better option than Splenda or Sweet N Low. And I get the liquid Stevia to avoid the carbs from dextrose that's added to powdered Stevia, though it is a small amount of carbs, i suppose it could add up. But I'm going to try cutting Stevia out this time, too. I got a theory that food should mainly used for its nutrients and not eaten for pleasure. And that if food weren't eaten for pleasure, the brain would be more reactive to pleasure in everyday life.
,Lol yeah I got a lot of theories
Posted by baseball55 on April 19, 2016, at 18:54:42
In reply to Re: Science. » Lamdage22, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 13:50:43
> > These books are a plague that seems to preferably hit America.
>
Americans have always believed in the power of positive thinking.> I want to know just why many people
> start thinking "crazy conspiracy theorist" every time something outside general public opinion is brought up? We call people "sheep" when they only buy into what the authorities tell them, unless we also buy into it.I don't think anti-grain diets are outside of public opinion these days, though they may be outside of actual public behavior. I know half-a-dozen people on paleo diets. Everyone is gluten free. Low carb diets - Atkins and South Beach are perennially popular. I've heard two interviews on NPR in the last two months about how we need to go back to the protein-fat-vege/fruit diet of our remote ancestors.
Part of the issue here with the emphasis on diet and exercise and whatever is that this is the standard response of people who know us, want us better and understand nothing about mental illness. Just get out of bed and you'll feel better. Go to the gym and you'll feel better. Come to a yoga class with me and you'll feel better. Jeez, why don't you just feel better? Snap out of it. Eat a healthier diet and you'll feel better.
Therapy is the only non-med treatment shown to work, though it works best with meds. But my therapist is a psychiatrist and he feels, though he believes strongly in therapy, that, when I am depressed, we can't really do therapy. All we do is work on stabilizing me.
Posted by baseball55 on April 19, 2016, at 19:14:25
In reply to Re: being closed minded » Hello321, posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2016, at 18:14:59
A follow on. I had severe knee pain, could barely walk. And got the same go around. Take naproxen, take ibuprofen, build up the muscles by lifting weights. Oh, just wait til the weather is warmer/colder/less humid/more humid, then you'll feel better. Lose weight, you'll feel better. I did all these things.
Finally went to a doctor who said I had no cartilage in my knee and needed a knee replacement. Boy, did medical intervention make me feel better!
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 19:51:49
In reply to Re: Science., posted by baseball55 on April 19, 2016, at 18:54:42
What I'm talking about is more than just the general idea of what makes up a healthy diet. It's basically about understanding and taking in the kind of nutrition the brains functions are believed to thrive off of, and cutting out anything that can be counterproductive to its healthy functioning. I think it's referred to as Functional Nutrition. As you mentioned, there is different thinking as to what the best diet is. And if the diet I've been describing isn't the overall best, I think it's the best for brain health.
Im trying to really put my mind to making a change for the better and really devoting myself to this diet. I know I personally need a major change for the better in how I function in daily life, and I'm hoping making major changes in the way I eat might just help me get where I want to be. I know the way I was eating didn't really do anything for me.
Posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2016, at 20:08:19
In reply to Re: being closed minded, posted by baseball55 on April 19, 2016, at 19:14:25
So many here have had either both knee replacement or one. And some hip replacements also. And now they can do what they did before. Arthritis bone without cartilage can't be cured or fixed with diet. So surgery needed. How's the pain now gone? Phillipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 20, 2016, at 3:41:03
In reply to Re: Science. » Lamdage22, posted by J Kelly on April 19, 2016, at 13:25:39
i dont participate in this anymore
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 20, 2016, at 4:19:55
In reply to Re: being closed minded » baseball55, posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2016, at 20:08:19
You are saying that we deserve the stigma. Who the hell are you to decide that?
And all that just because you have read a book?
Posted by SLS on April 20, 2016, at 6:08:06
In reply to Re: Science., posted by baseball55 on April 19, 2016, at 18:54:42
> But my therapist is a psychiatrist and he feels, though he believes strongly in therapy, that, when I am depressed, we can't really do therapy. All we do is work on stabilizing me.
Yes. Exactly. This has been my experience as well. When I am at rock-bottom, I tell my therapist that he or she has only one job - keep me alive. When I feel better, I love to work on my issues - because I can. I have plenty of them. Reaching for a self-actualizing lifestyle is my long-term goal.
Talking about drugs all of the time does not blind me to the rest of the world of psychiatric therapeutics. It would be presumptuous, and an example of all-or-nothing thinking, for someone to describe me as being blind, especially when they haven't had the advantage of reading all of my posts through the years.
Overgeneralizing is often counterproductive and can set up for adversarial relationships.
- Scott
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