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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by stan_the_man70 on March 14, 2016, at 23:59:21
I don't know how accurate or true these images are but just found these images on a blog...
funny... have you seen these before?http://i.bnet.com/blogs/zyprexa-slide-diabetes.jpg
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/execute.jpg
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/zyprexa-slide-weight-gain.jpg
Here's where I found it:
http://www.madinamerica.com/forums/topic/metabolic-damage-from-zyprexa-after-quitting/
Posted by stan_the_man70 on March 15, 2016, at 0:15:41
In reply to This is hilarious, posted by stan_the_man70 on March 14, 2016, at 23:59:21
---------------------quote reference
http://www.mythsandrisks.info/psychiatric-drugs-risks.html
---------------------end quoteAnother one of my anti zyprexa postings/references
You would need to read the entire article on the websiteExcerpt:
From The New York Times:
What weve discovered is that the more drugs youve been given, the more brain tissue you loseThey [antipsychotic drugs] block basal ganglia activity. The prefrontal cortex doesnt get the input it needs and is being shut down by drugs. That reduces the psychotic symptoms. It also causes the prefrontal cortex to slowly atrophy [waste away]. Dr Nancy Andreasen (Neuroscientist/Psychiatrist)Excerpt:
Life example:
I was working with a young man who was being advised by his psychiatrist to change his medication to clozapine. He was reluctant to do so and his social worker gave him a promotional video on this drug to try and convince him of the benefits. What the doctors, social worker and video did not tell him was that in a 10 year study seven people experienced heart attacks (five fatal) whilst prescribed this drug and that two of these were under 30 years of age (his age group).
He mentioned his concern to the psychiatrist and told me the psychiatrist's reply was: "Any of the drugs I prescribe you can cause sudden death". Honest but not reassuring! Surely the young man should have been told these and other facts (such as 34% developed diabetes in this study, in spite of safeguards to try and prevent this - though the figure would likely have been around 43% if everyone had continued with the drug) to help him in making an informed decision.
In passing, I would point out that his dentist noticed a marked reduction in bone density - a matter of concern for someone in his early 20s. Though not confirmed as causal in his case, it is worth noting that both antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs have been associated with causing reduced bone density. He had been on these drugs long-term.
Posted by J Kelly on March 15, 2016, at 12:03:49
In reply to anti zyprexa, posted by stan_the_man70 on March 15, 2016, at 0:15:41
Hi Stan,
Forgive me if you have posted about Zyprexa in the past. I'm playing catch up here.
Have you taken Zyprexa? May I ask why you are "anti Zyprexa"? Is it due to the studies you have found? Or maybe you had a bad experience with it?
I wish I didn't need psych meds. I really do. However, to allow my condition (depression/anxiety) to fester without intervention would be far more detrimental to my physical and mental health and well being. Of this, I'm sure. But that's just me :)
Jade
> ---------------------quote reference
> http://www.mythsandrisks.info/psychiatric-drugs-risks.html
> ---------------------end quote
>
> Another one of my anti zyprexa postings/references
> You would need to read the entire article on the website
>
> Excerpt:
> From The New York Times:
> What weve discovered is that the more drugs youve been given, the more brain tissue you loseThey [antipsychotic drugs] block basal ganglia activity. The prefrontal cortex doesnt get the input it needs and is being shut down by drugs. That reduces the psychotic symptoms. It also causes the prefrontal cortex to slowly atrophy [waste away]. Dr Nancy Andreasen (Neuroscientist/Psychiatrist)
>
> Excerpt:
> Life example:
> I was working with a young man who was being advised by his psychiatrist to change his medication to clozapine. He was reluctant to do so and his social worker gave him a promotional video on this drug to try and convince him of the benefits. What the doctors, social worker and video did not tell him was that in a 10 year study seven people experienced heart attacks (five fatal) whilst prescribed this drug and that two of these were under 30 years of age (his age group).
> He mentioned his concern to the psychiatrist and told me the psychiatrist's reply was: "Any of the drugs I prescribe you can cause sudden death". Honest but not reassuring! Surely the young man should have been told these and other facts (such as 34% developed diabetes in this study, in spite of safeguards to try and prevent this - though the figure would likely have been around 43% if everyone had continued with the drug) to help him in making an informed decision.
> In passing, I would point out that his dentist noticed a marked reduction in bone density - a matter of concern for someone in his early 20s. Though not confirmed as causal in his case, it is worth noting that both antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs have been associated with causing reduced bone density. He had been on these drugs long-term.
>
>
Posted by J Kelly on March 15, 2016, at 13:07:16
In reply to This is hilarious, posted by stan_the_man70 on March 14, 2016, at 23:59:21
> I don't know how accurate or true these images are but just found these images on a blog...
> funny... have you seen these before?
>
> http://i.bnet.com/blogs/zyprexa-slide-diabetes.jpg
>
> http://i.bnet.com/blogs/execute.jpg
>
> http://i.bnet.com/blogs/zyprexa-slide-weight-gain.jpg
>
> Here's where I found it:
>
> http://www.madinamerica.com/forums/topic/metabolic-damage-from-zyprexa-after-quitting/Stan,
In the "madinamerica" forum/topic you cited, I noticed a common theme was the concern that weight loss would not be possible after discontinuing Zyprexa.
Again, just sharing my experience. I immediately started dropping weight after discontinuing Zyprexa. I not only lost the weight I gained, with out any effort on my part, but I continued to lose weight I didn't need to. I suppose this could be a result of returning depression.
But my point: in MY experience Zyprexa weight gain can be easily lost upon discontinuation. Zyprexa saved me for a while, and yes I gained unwanted weight. But I hope anyone reading this who may be in crisis, will consider that Zyprexa can be a life saver. The weight gain is reversible. Getting to a stable place is worth some extra weight in the short term IMHO. I see it as a life raft until I find a long term workable solution. Hope this helps someone.
> > "Re: This is hilarious"
Is it? If you've taken it and gained the usual extra weight, I will join you in a laugh. I call it the fat pill.
Jade
Posted by Tomatheus on March 15, 2016, at 15:25:25
In reply to anti zyprexa, posted by stan_the_man70 on March 15, 2016, at 0:15:41
> Life example:
> I was working with a young man who was being advised by his psychiatrist to change his medication to clozapine. He was reluctant to do so and his social worker gave him a promotional video on this drug to try and convince him of the benefits. What the doctors, social worker and video did not tell him was that in a 10 year study seven people experienced heart attacks (five fatal) whilst prescribed this drug and that two of these were under 30 years of age (his age group).Stan_the_man70,
I am most certainly disturbed not only by the fact that seven participants who were taking clozapine as part of a study experienced heart attacks (with five of those heart attacks being fatal and two of those heart attacks being in those who were under the age of 30), but also by the fact that the professionals who treated the young man that you were working with only showed the young man a promotional video about the medication without mentioning the findings of the study that you brought up. I'm interested in knowing, though, how many participants were involved in the clozapine study that you made reference to. Could you let me know more about this study?
Thanks,
Tomatheus
Posted by stan_the_man70 on March 16, 2016, at 3:22:41
In reply to Re: anti zyprexa » stan_the_man70, posted by J Kelly on March 15, 2016, at 12:03:49
if you were to search for "zyprexa hell" "zyprexa evil" "zyprexa withdrawal" you will get a number of hits
most bulletin boards that I have read describe zyprexa terror very wellzyprexa/neuroleptics/benzos can affect the various gaba receptors and maybe cause damage
zyprexa seems to put the brain into hibernation so that it starts metabolising fat
zyprexa/neuroleptics could cause structural changes to the brain - could cause the brain to atrophy
I had posted about these things previouslyI gained a lot of weight upon taking zyprexa - after having stopped taking zyprexa for more than a year I have still not lost a lot of weight
and its in the wrong places and looks weird too - not uniform
btw, I do a lot of exercise and dietnutrients
B vitamins, essential minerals, full range of antioxidants, certain amino acids, certain fats/oils
supplements are powerful and can have side effects just like meds
if lacking antioxidants then your skin, hair, eyes, bleeding, joints, energy, sleep could be affected - had posted on antioxidants earlier
there are certain cycles that occur in the human body - kreb's cycle, urea cycle, transulfuration cycle, methionine cycle, methylation cycle, neurotransmitter cycle and so on
if your organs are affected or if lacking nutrients then these cycles will be affected - which could affect mental health
different nutrients compete for absorptionsunlight
are you getting adequate sunlightherbs
herbs are powerful and you would need to see a herbologist
but sometimes herbs can help and heal the underlying issuesimmunity
need to make the immune system stronger using various techniques
an underlying infection or bacterial growth can cause problemssleep
uninterrupted sleep? quality of sleep - sleep directly affects mental health
shower, clean clothes, clean empty room, quiet room, dark room
complex carb meal, calcium magnesium foods - hummus, fish, brown rice, smoothies
dont watch tv/computers prior to sleep, and so onobesity
the brain has a large amount of fat
are you eating the correct fats?
if overweight with your body could be storing the wrong kind of fats and toxins
there is a correlation between obesity and mental healthdemeanor
are you having enough fun and excitement in life
inexpensive vacations can generally reduce the needs for medsorgans
if the liver has problems producing enough glutathione then it could cause issues
taking excessive supplements/vitamins may overload the liver and/or kidneys
if your adrenals are malfunctioning then it could affect cortisol levels and sleep
if the pineal gland is affected the melatonin production could be affected and maybe also sleep
if the thyroids/parathyroids are not functioning correctly it could affect the brain and weight gain
is your hypothalamus or pituitary gland affected? not sure how psychotropic drugs affect theseexercise
intensity, duration, variety - is it just routine or can you feel the effectsbreathing exercises:
various types of breathing exercises - can really calm you down, give you energy, as well as improve mental healthdiet
healthy cooking techniques - steam, boil, stir fry
raw foods, natural foods, sprouts, juices, smoothies, teas, vegetables, fruits, black rice, fermented foods and so on
what cooking oils do matter - is it suited to you
not GMO stuff, not processed foods, not fast foods, not junk snacks
you may have developed sensitivity, tolerance towards some foodsmental
is your brain being exercised enough - creative/artistic, design/architecture, analysis/forensics, strategy/logistics and so on
maybe try some of the brain workout websiteswork related:
toxic relationships, money issues, work pressures, social isolation
pills will not solve thesedigestion
biovailibity of food, absorption, probiotics, bacteria, enzymes, chewing, food portion size, meal frequency
adequate water and fluid hydrationtoxins
allergies, inflammations
are you allergic towards some foods that you may not know - you could have internal inflammations that you are not aware of
tried a detox for the various organs?taking a pill such as zyprexa suddenly balances neurotransmitters is hard to believe
it most likely masks the symptomswhen you met the doctor did you discuss withdrawal symptoms, toxicity of the meds, dependency on the meds, side effects of meds?
are the meds going to fix the problems so you wont need them in the future? will it turn someone into a better someone?
could it change your personality? what about weight gain, dullness, memory loss, slowness?
did you discuss alternatives? did you discuss long term effects?I'm sure there must be lots more things to be considered
The above were just my thoughts understanding insights experience - it is not meant to be medical advice.
I would suggest consulting with someone else - meds is not the same as healthcare
Posted by stan_the_man70 on March 16, 2016, at 4:01:12
In reply to Re: anti zyprexa » stan_the_man70, posted by J Kelly on March 15, 2016, at 12:03:49
> Have you taken Zyprexa? May I ask why you are "anti Zyprexa"? Is it due to the studies you have found? Or maybe you had a bad experience with it?
Yes, I had previously taken zyprexa for many years.
It was difficult to withdraw from zyprexa - but eventually someone would try to put me back on it.
I suppose zyprexa is prescribed more because it avoids having to balance other drugs or pills - zyprexa is very powerful so one pill takes care of a lot of issues - plus causes a lot of side effects> I wish I didn't need psych meds. I really do. However, to allow my condition (depression/anxiety) to fester without intervention would be far more detrimental to my physical and mental health and well being. Of this, I'm sure. But that's just me :)
>
That would be a personal choice - based on the seriousness of the issues that someone is facing.
Posted by stan_the_man70 on March 16, 2016, at 4:07:44
In reply to Re: This is hilarious » stan_the_man70, posted by J Kelly on March 15, 2016, at 13:07:16
> Again, just sharing my experience. I immediately started dropping weight after discontinuing Zyprexa. I not only lost the >weight I gained, with out any effort on my part, but I continued to lose weight I didn't need to. I suppose this could be >a result of returning depression.
>
> But my point: in MY experience Zyprexa weight gain can be easily lost upon discontinuation. Zyprexa saved me for a while, >and yes I gained unwanted weight. But I hope anyone reading this who may be in crisis, will consider that Zyprexa can be a >life saver. The weight gain is reversible. Getting to a stable place is worth some extra weight in the short term IMHO. I >see it as a life raft until I find a long term workable solution. Hope this helps someone.
>When I did stop taking zyprexa - I did lose weight very quickly too - but I think it was because the body goes into some kind of shock - I don't think it's healthy - and later on the weight comes back on
> > > "Re: This is hilarious"
> Is it? If you've taken it and gained the usual extra weight, I will join you in a laugh. I call it the fat pill.
>
I found these 3 images to be funny - apparently used by drug reps to market the drugs.
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/zyprexa-slide-diabetes.jpg
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/execute.jpg
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/zyprexa-slide-weight-gain.jpg
Posted by stan_the_man70 on March 16, 2016, at 4:21:46
In reply to Re: anti zyprexa » stan_the_man70, posted by Tomatheus on March 15, 2016, at 15:25:25
> I am most certainly disturbed not only by the fact that seven participants who were taking clozapine as part of a study experienced heart attacks (with five of those heart attacks being fatal and two of those heart attacks being in those who were under the age of 30), but also by the fact that the professionals who treated the young man that you were working with only showed the young man a promotional video about the medication without mentioning the findings of the study that you brought up. I'm interested in knowing, though, how many participants were involved in the clozapine study that you made reference to. Could you let me know more about this study?
>I can only refer you to the original website/posting
http://www.mythsandrisks.info/psychiatric-drugs-risks.htmlI have not read this but I believe this is the study being cited:
http://www.mythsandrisks.info/Clozapine%20study-dangers.pdfI do not know the accuracy of the article but it does have references:
References - Bibliography
1 Abbott, N.J. et al (2010) Structure and function of the blood-brain barrier. Neurobiol Dis. 2010 Jan;37(1):13-25. Abstract here.
2 Jackson, G. (2005) Rethinking Psychiatric Drugs. USA: Anchor House
3 Cooper, J. et al. (2003 edition) The Biochemical Basis for Neuropharmacology. New York: Oxford University Press
4 Jackson, G. (2009) Drug-induced dementia - a perfect crime. USA: Anchor House
5 Billioti, S. et al. (2012) Benzodiazepine use and risk of dementia: prospective population based study. BMJ 2012;345:e6231. Full study here.
6 Grandjean, P. et al (2006) Developmental neurotoxicity of industrial chemicals. The Lancet. November 8 2006
7 Breggin, P. (2001) The Antidepressant Fact Book. US: Da Capo Press
8 Navari, S. & Dazzan, P. (2009) Do antipsychotic drugs affect brain structure? A systematic and critical review of MRI findings. Psychological Medicine (2009), 39, 1763-1777. Full study here.
9 Neustadt J, et al. (2008) Medication-induced mitochondrial damage and disease. Mol Nutr Food Res. 2008 Jul;52(7):780-8. Abstract here.
10 Dr D. Healy. House of Commons Health Committee: The influence of the Pharmaceutical Industry 2004. Quoted section available here.
11 Tiihonen, J. et al. (2012) Polypharmacy With Antipsychotics, Antidepressants, or Benzodiazepines and Mortality in Schizophrenia. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2012;69(5):476-483.
12 I am of course not claiming that the apparent association proves the drug is culpable.
Further reading - Might be worth checking out
For a short and easy-to-read, but informative introduction to psychiatric drugs you might find this helpful:
Moncrieff, J. (2009) A Straight Talking Introduction to Psychiatric Drugs. UK: PCCS Books Ltd
The following are perhaps a more comprehensive read:
Jackson, G. (2005) Rethinking Psychiatric Drugs. USA: Anchor House
Healy, D. (2002) Psychiatric Drugs Explained. UK: Churchill Livingstone
Moncrieff, J. (2008) The Myth of the Chemical Cure. UK: Palgrave MacMillan
For those with a more in-depth interest in the physiological damage caused by psychiatric drugs:
Breggin, P. (2008) Brain-Disabling Treatments in Psychiatry. New York: Springer Books
Jackson, G. (2009) Drug-induced Dementia - A Perfect Crime. USA: Anchor House----------------------------------------
I had a previous posting on psychiatry books also:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20151225/msgs/1085621.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20151225/msgs/1085615.html
Posted by Tomatheus on March 16, 2016, at 15:21:43
In reply to Re: anti zyprexa » Tomatheus, posted by stan_the_man70 on March 16, 2016, at 4:21:46
Stan_the_man,
Thank you for posting a link to the study that I asked about. I read through the report, and based on my reading, eight of the 96 patients whose records were examined for the study -- one more than what you noted in your post -- experienced heart attacks ("myocardial infarctions") over the 10-year-period. Five of these heart attacks were fatal, and three were not fatal. The report also stated that two patients who were excluded from the overall sample because their cardiovascular assessments prior to clozapine initiation were not available also experienced fatal heart attacks. The mean age of the patients whose records were examined for the study was 36.5 +/- 7.9 years. So, even without taking the heart attack deaths of the two patients who were excluded from the overall sample into account, eight of the 96 patients whose records were examined (8.3 percent) experienced heart attacks over the 10-year period, with five out of the 96 patients (5.2 percent) having experienced fatal heart attacks. The report that I read referenced statistics from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that estimated the number of heart attack-related deaths among those in the 35-to-44-year-old age range to be 3,176 in 100,000, or 3.2 percent. The authors of the study report contended that the cardiovascular disease-related death rates of the clozapine-treated patients whose records were examined for the study "greatly exceeded" U.S. cardiovascular-disease related death rates as estimated by the CDC, as well as cardiovascular-disease related death rate estimates for the general population of Massachusetts. The authors went on to say that their findings suggest that "the gains in life expectancy made by clozapine's reduction in suicide rates in schizophrenia patients may be lost secondary to cardiovascular disease-related deaths."
Although the findings of the study do seem to suggest that the risk of cardiovascular disease-related death is higher in clozapine-treated patients than it is in the general population, I'm not sure how "greatly" the cardiovascular disease-related death rate in the clozapine-treated patients whose records were examined for the study exceeded the cardiovascular disease-related death rate in a general population of those in the same age range as those who were studied. Then again, my assessments of this study only means so much, as I most certainly do not have the kind of scientific background that the authors who conducted the study do.
Tomatheus
Posted by SLS on March 16, 2016, at 15:48:43
In reply to Re: anti zyprexa » stan_the_man70, posted by Tomatheus on March 16, 2016, at 15:21:43
They should really compare MI rates between people with schizophrenia, as schizophrenia might confer an added risk, directly or indirectly.
- Scott
Posted by Tomatheus on March 16, 2016, at 17:41:42
In reply to Re: anti zyprexa, posted by SLS on March 16, 2016, at 15:48:43
> They should really compare MI rates between people with schizophrenia, as schizophrenia might confer an added risk, directly or indirectly.
This is a good point, Scott. The authors of the report that I read made reference to the possibility that "other unknown factors" might have affected the rates of cardiovascular disease-related deaths and diabetes in the clozapine-treated patients whose records were examined for the study. In accordance with what you said, I'd certainly think that the conditions of schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder themselves would represent variables that might increase the risk for cardiovascular disease-related death. Knowing that the risk of cardiovascular disease-related death was higher in the clozapine-treated patients whose records were examined for this study than it is for the larger populations of both the state of Massachusetts and the U.S. is interesting, but I too think that comparing the data from this study with data from patients with schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder who have not been treated with clozapine would have allowed for a more controlled assessment of the extent to which clozapine use might increase the risk of cardiovascular disease-related death.
Tomatheus
Posted by baseball55 on March 16, 2016, at 20:06:34
In reply to Re: anti zyprexa » SLS, posted by Tomatheus on March 16, 2016, at 17:41:42
I didn't read the study, but did it control for weight, smoking and alcohol/drug use? Smoking rates are much higher in people with schizophrenia than in the general population, as are obesity rates (in part because of drugs like clozapine) and alcohol/drug abuse.
Posted by Tomatheus on March 16, 2016, at 22:39:16
In reply to Re: anti zyprexa, posted by baseball55 on March 16, 2016, at 20:06:34
> I didn't read the study, but did it control for weight, smoking and alcohol/drug use? Smoking rates are much higher in people with schizophrenia than in the general population, as are obesity rates (in part because of drugs like clozapine) and alcohol/drug abuse.
Baseball55,
I don't understand statistics very well, but here's what the authors of the report wrote about the statistical analysis that they did:
"This study examined time to development of diabetes mellitus and death from cardiovascular disease associated with clozapine treatment at 12-month intervals over a 10-year period. Baseline and follow-up descriptive statistics were tabulated. Weight, serum cholesterol level, and serum triglyceride level were treated as continuous and analyzed by means of longitudinal methods. The Cox proportional hazards regressions were used to test the association between the covariates (age, ethnicity, BMI, total cholesterol level, serum triglyceride level, systolic and diastolic blood pressure, smoking, and diabetes mellitus) and death from cardiovascular disease and the development of diabetes mellitus. Age, race, and gender were analyzed as baseline covariates, and BMI, total cholesterol level, clozapine total daily dose, serum triglyceride level, and weight were analyzed as time-dependent covariates. Each covariate was analyzed separately.
"Time was used as a stratum and ties were handled with the discrete option in the SAS PHREG procedure (SAS Institute Inc., Cary, N.C.). This replaces the proportional hazards model with the discrete logistic model so that odds ratios rather than hazard ratios are computed. The Kaplan-Meier estimate of time to development of diabetes mellitus and cardiovascular death were computed. Changes from baseline weight, BMI, total cholesterol level, and serum triglyceride level were analyzed using a mixed-effects model. This model has fixed linear term for time and random intercept and linear term for time for each patient. The fixed effects estimate the mean trajectory of the change from baseline, and the random effects allow a separate trajectory for each patient. All p values are 2-tailed, and a p value < .05 was considered evidence for statistical significance."
So, if I'm understanding things correctly, it looks like the researchers factored weight, smoking, and some other risk factors for cardiovascular disease-related death into their statistical analysis. I didn't see any mentions of alcohol use or the use of marijuana or "harder" recreational drugs, though. As far as I can tell, the researchers looked at how the measures of various risk factors for cardiovascular disease (obesity and cigarette smoking being among them) in the clozapine-treated patients changed over the course of the 10-year study period, in addition to examining the rates and estimates of diabetes mellitus and cardiovascular disease-related mortality in the patients.
Tomatheus
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In reply to Re: anti zyprexa » stan_the_man70, posted by Tomatheus on March 16, 2016, at 15:21:43
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This is the end of the thread.
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