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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 33. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 16, 2015, at 17:57:09
I'd like to hear from people who have experience with OTC lithium products sold as dietary supplements.... lithium orotate, lithium aspartate etc. All these products contain a very low dose compared with prescribed lithium carbonate.
In your experience, are they inactive or do you notice something?
I'm wondering whether the dose is high enough. I mean, lithium is naturally present in tiny amounts in the water supply and in most foods, especially vegetables. There's a link between lithium intake and suicide/violence. Areas where the lithium content of the water supply is higher seem to have a lower incidence of suicide and violent crime. It's only a correlation but it's interesting.
Apparently, Americans consume about 0.6mg to 3.1mg of lithium per day through food and water. This is hardly a lot compared with prescription doses, but does it make a difference? Most lithium orotate tablets contain 5mg of lithium, in contrast.
Anyway, I decided to post this on the main board because lithium is so frequently used in conventional medicine, and because this board gets more traffic!
Posted by linkadge on February 16, 2015, at 18:34:32
In reply to Non-prescription lithium products, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 16, 2015, at 17:57:09
I am not an expert on the topic, but lithium orotate seems to contain more lithium than one might expect.
For instance, I ordered the Hans Nieper lithium orotate product. It purportedly contains 120mg of lithium orotate, providing ~4.8 mg of elemental lithium.
By contrast, lithium carbonate contains ~18mg of elemental lithium per 100mg of lithium carbonate.
So, a standard 600-900mg of lithium carbonate would provide 108-162mg of elemental lithium. This would require ~ 22-33 lithium orotate pills.
That being said, lithium augmentation can be as low as 150mg - 300mg of carbonate which would be an equivalent 5.5-11 lithium orotate pills. Theoretically, this is not impossible to take. I ordered 200 of such pills for ~$20USD. This would cost about 0.50-1 USD a day.
Now, I don't know how accurate the above calculations are. However, having taken lithium carbonate, aspartate and orotate, I can say that lithium orotate is definitely noticeable as a 'lithium' product. I honestly to feel better on lithium orotate. Mind you, I could also notice 1/2 of a 150mg lithium carbonate pill.
I would like to bring this up with my doctor (preferably to take some lithium carbonate again). However, I feel that my doctor would not take too well to such experiementation esp. with SSRI's and / or stimulants.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 16, 2015, at 18:40:01
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2015, at 18:34:32
Thanks a lot for the information Link. I hoped you would have something to say.
What do you notice from 1/2 a 150mg lithium carbonate tablet? And how would you compare lithium orotate with lithium aspartate?
Posted by joe f on February 16, 2015, at 19:12:33
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products » linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 16, 2015, at 18:40:01
why not just take low dose lithium
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 16, 2015, at 19:16:26
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by joe f on February 16, 2015, at 19:12:33
>why not just take low dose lithium
Lithium carbonate? Don't have a prescription.
Posted by linkadge on February 16, 2015, at 19:21:40
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products » linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 16, 2015, at 18:40:01
Having taken larger doses of lithium carbonate (up to 1500mg a day at one point believe it or not) 75mg of lithium is noticeable for me.
Lithium, in general, for me helps reduce headaches, as well as sensitivity to light and sound.
Its hard to describe the psychological effects, but I will try.
Lithium seems to dampen the intensity of colors. So, bright vivid colors start to appear flatter or more grey. Lithium reduces the background noise in my brain.
I have a problem with insomnia, whereby I start to become more alert and active at nighttime. So, instead of feeling tired, I will feel more awake and excited. In elderly people, I believe this is called "sundowning syndrome" or something like that. Lithium really seems to reverse this. It doesn't make me sleepy per se. But, it seems to help me "come down" at night, as opposed to ramping up. Even low doses (i.e. 75mg) help me with this.
Lithium seems to help me with anxiety, and depression. It's effects on depression feel different from an antidepressant. It's more subtle. I do notice fewer symptoms and relapses when I take even low doses of lithium.
I would suggest that it feels similar to magnesium, but with more effect on depression. Like a combination of magnesium and some 5-htp (or something).
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 16, 2015, at 19:25:57
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2015, at 19:21:40
Sorry, I didn't answer re: aspartate. Lithium aspartate did appear to make me more depressed. I think this could be because of the aspartate (NMDA agonist) carrier. It seemed to not have the same dampening effect as carbonate or aspartate.
Posted by linkadge on February 16, 2015, at 19:26:13
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2015, at 19:21:40
Sorry, I didn't answer re: aspartate. Lithium aspartate did appear to make me more depressed. I think this could be because of the aspartate (NMDA agonist) carrier. It seemed to not have the same dampening effect as carbonate or orotate.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 16, 2015, at 19:43:31
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2015, at 19:21:40
Thanks, that's really helpful.
If you take a extremely low dose of lithium carbonate.... or if you take lithium orotate, how long do the psychological effects last?
The effect on colours doesn't sound too positive. A reduced vividness. Is that a negative experience?
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 18, 2015, at 13:03:58
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products » linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 16, 2015, at 19:43:31
For me it lasts two days.
Two days after i forgot to refill my lithium O, i had tho
ese negative thoughts we talked about and nobody wants back.Two days after 10mg lithium a day (240mg orotate).
Posted by linkadge on February 18, 2015, at 19:19:08
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by Lamdage22 on February 18, 2015, at 13:03:58
Yeah, I do notice after a day or two.
In terms of the colors, I don't see it as a negative. I can still see the colors for what they are, but its like I can see more of the details with less distraction. Its seems to be like looking at a black and white photograph (although I still see color fine) in the sense that I see more of the details.
Actually, on lithium, my ability to draw, especially geometric figures is improved. I seem to be able to see 3D structure better. It may just be in my mind though :)
Linkadge
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 19, 2015, at 6:41:08
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by linkadge on February 18, 2015, at 19:19:08
It might be your mind.
I heard people complain their creativity is dulled by lithium. Not for you though so thats good!
Posted by linkadge on February 19, 2015, at 14:22:05
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by Lamdage22 on February 19, 2015, at 6:41:08
No, its not my creativity that has improved.
I see creativity as being able to create something novel, or different. I.e. the ability to connect existing ideas in new ways. Lithium has not improved this for me. However, I seem to be able to more accurately draw, for instance, a picture of the Eiffel Tower from a model or a photograph. I'm not creating something new, but better able to see what's there and record it.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 19, 2015, at 20:15:37
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by linkadge on February 19, 2015, at 14:22:05
> No, its not my creativity that has improved.
>
> I see creativity as being able to create something novel, or different. I.e. the ability to connect existing ideas in new ways. Lithium has not improved this for me. However, I seem to be able to more accurately draw, for instance, a picture of the Eiffel Tower from a model or a photograph. I'm not creating something new, but better able to see what's there and record it.I know you said you took 1500mg Li carbonate at one point? How did this affect you?
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 20, 2015, at 8:18:32
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products » linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 19, 2015, at 20:15:37
id be anxious taking so much lithium but its supposed to be a really good mood stabilizer.
The unique thing is it protects against both mania and depression, so you cant go wrong with it mood wise.
We need more meds like that.I have never been manic without ADs and never will, but on meds i have been manic in the past.
Manic in comparison to my standards at least. Maybe because i wasnt used to NOT being depressed.
Then again, it might have been more of psychosis than mania. Pretty sure it was as i still had sad thoughts and the like.
I have been crying after being numb for so long.Its hard to say where depression begins and ends. But we are not supposed to not enjoy life is my opinion. We should be reasonably happy.
Now though i think the antipsychotic im taking will protect me. (When rapastinel comes out!)
It is complicated.It would be easier with drugs like lithium. But i wont take the risks associated with it. Neither the weight gain.
If there was no weight gain and no thyroid and kidney issues, id be on it in a heart beat even though im not full blown bipolar.
Posted by linkadge on February 20, 2015, at 21:30:08
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by Lamdage22 on February 20, 2015, at 8:18:32
I never gained weight on lithium (I wish), but neither have I gained a pound on remeron or amitriptyline. In terms of thyroid and kidney function, I think both of these can be managed. I read a statistic that most people can take lithium for life, if needed. Perhaps with diminished kidney function in later years. My mother is 65 now and has been on lithium for about 35 years. She has no thyroid issues, but some mild kidney issues (probably affected by her weight).
The thing with lithium (for me) is that there were benefits to even lower doses. So, yes one might need 900mg if suffering from full blown bipolar I, but lower doses are probably underused in other forms of bipolar and unipolar.
I would say that the course of unipolar illness would probably be a lot better for many patients who took low dose lithium (irrespective of an immediate clinical benefit).
If I could choose, I'd probably take 300-450mg of lithium. Combined with the milder mood stabilizing effects of omega-3, I could get by.
Combinations such as 300mg of lithium + 250mg of Depakote + 1000-2000 EPA+DHA + 500mcg of folic acid would probably help a number of severe bipolar cases with fewer overall side effects.
Folic acid has been shown in a few studies to improve the clinical effects of both lithium and Depakote.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 20, 2015, at 21:33:09
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by Lamdage22 on February 20, 2015, at 8:18:32
I would say that under say....450, I noticed no cognitive dampening effects of lithium. If anything, learning and cognition were improved by a reduction in the background noise.
Higher than 600mg seemed too be a bit more heavy. My ability to think deeply was improved dramatically, but at the expense of loss of short term fluidity.
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 21, 2015, at 1:05:52
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by linkadge on February 20, 2015, at 21:33:09
You know what i think?
Anyone in a locked psychiatric ward should be tried on low dose lithium.
Because they might not need to be there any longer as it was the case with me!
Its no fun being there.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 22, 2015, at 15:33:58
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by Lamdage22 on February 21, 2015, at 1:05:52
The fact that you're on a lithium salt now shows that you can tolerate very low dose lithium. Whether slightly more would be helpful, maybe....
What dose of lithium carbonate did you take when you had side effects?
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 23, 2015, at 4:29:49
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products » Lamdage22, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 22, 2015, at 15:33:58
> The fact that you're on a lithium salt now shows that you can tolerate very low dose lithium. Whether slightly more would be helpful, maybe....
>
> What dose of lithium carbonate did you take when you had side effects?Oh i dont remember exactly. Maybe 300 or 400. Weight gain was my complaint!
I think im making a Switch to clozapine to avoid tardive akathisia and tardive dyskinesia.
I dont want to walk around and look like an idiot. Plus, aktahisia or dyskinesia can really make your life miserable.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 23, 2015, at 11:45:26
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by Lamdage22 on February 23, 2015, at 4:29:49
>Oh i dont remember exactly. Maybe 300 or 400. Weight gain was my complaint!
You'd be able to take 100mg of lithium carbonate with no side effects, I imagine. You might benefit.
>I think im making a switch to clozapine to avoid tardive akathisia and tardive dyskinesia.
Do you have risk factors such as a history of acute movement disorders with your current meds?
Clozapine causes excessive salivation very frequently, which is mainly a problem at night. It's common for people to wake up to a wet pillow. Are you OK with the blood tests? - initially weekly.
Clozapine is one of the most sedating antipsychotics. You would probably sleep well on it. It seems to reduce suicidal thinking and psychotic symptoms more effectively than any other APs. Although you would need to reduce your current meds gradually (and probably overlap them with clozapine when starting), you probably wouldn't need to take any other antipsychotic in combination with clozapine on a long-term basis.
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 23, 2015, at 11:47:21
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products » Lamdage22, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 23, 2015, at 11:45:26
Yeah i know.
I am undecided between cannabidiol (would cost my father a hell of a lot of money) and Clozapine.
Im scared of the heart effects of clozapine.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 23, 2015, at 12:54:26
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by Lamdage22 on February 23, 2015, at 11:47:21
>I am undecided between cannabidiol (would cost my father a hell of a lot of money) and Clozapine.
>
> Im scared of the heart effects of clozapine.You could stick with what you're on already. If not, clozapine is an established treatment. Cannabidiol is not, and how would you know the product you were taking was genuine?
To minimise the risk of TD, you shouldn't really be on three APs, if you are still taking pipamperone!
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 23, 2015, at 12:58:08
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 23, 2015, at 12:54:26
> You could stick with what you're on already. If not, clozapine is an established treatment. Cannabidiol is not, and how would you know the product you were taking was genuine?
I would know its from the german pharmacy from THC pharm.
> To minimise the risk of TD, you shouldn't really be on three APs, if you are still taking pipamperone!
Im not on pipamperone anymore.
What im currently on, how big is the risk of developing tardive dyskinesia or similar disorders?
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 23, 2015, at 16:40:01
In reply to Re: Non-prescription lithium products, posted by Lamdage22 on February 23, 2015, at 12:58:08
>What I'm currently on, how big is the risk of developing tardive dyskinesia or similar disorders?
That depends on several factors, particularly you age. Olanzapine and quetiapine do not often cause TD in young people.
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