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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Hugh on August 4, 2014, at 11:59:59
In reply to i start tomorrow 7pm... (nm), posted by johnLA on August 3, 2014, at 21:15:44
As far as I know, you'll be the first Babbler to try Deep TMS, so you're our trailblazer. Happy trails to you.
Posted by Phillipa on August 4, 2014, at 17:38:35
In reply to Re: i start tomorrow 7pm... » johnLA, posted by Hugh on August 4, 2014, at 11:59:59
John how did it go today? Phillipa
Posted by Beckett on August 4, 2014, at 23:42:34
In reply to Re: i start tomorrow 7pm... » johnLA, posted by Hugh on August 4, 2014, at 11:59:59
Hey, good luck! I hope you do well. There is tms in my town, but for deep tms, I would need to drive about 80 minutes each way (gotta love California). However, if it's an appreciative advance it treatment, I'd find a way.
I hear you about researching depression treatment. I used to spend time reading other things more enjoyable.
Posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 3:41:15
In reply to going for deep tms..., posted by johnLA on August 3, 2014, at 10:56:55
thanks again for all the good wishes. really appreciate it.
well, i did the first treatment. i feel strangely calm and ok. been listening (and feeling) music too...been a long time since that has happened.
i know it's placebo, but i will take it.
the doc was kind enough to schedule a 7pm appointment. i got there having a pretty good idea of how things go with deep tms. i just didn't know how it would feel.
it took her a while to 'calibrate' the headgear, my brain and the machine. they do this by a trying to find a 'sweet spot' (her words) that when the machine pulsates it will make your right hand/thumb twitch. from there she then set the threshold/intensity at 95%. we will get to 120% threshold within a few days.
she had some trouble finding my sweet spot. (lol) she actually said that she had one patient she had to switch to regular tms due to not being able to get the person's thumb to twitch. this got me a bit worried. but, eventually she found it. i have always been hard-headed...
you wear a headgear that looks like a 1920's football helmet or a 1920's flapper's swim head piece. take your pick. has a chin strap too. felt very secure/safe in it.
you put in ear plugs. there is also cool air running thru the machine's helmet. all comfy so far.
she lowers/positions the machine's 'helmet' over your headgear with all the electrodes and the whole thing is connected to some type of monitor that graphs your brains response to the pulses. the monitor looks like a ekg/eeg.
the procedure is 4 seconds of 'pulses' 20 seconds off. the goes on for 18 minutes. i think she said a total of 55 4 second pulses.
i took some tylenol beforehand. no headache after.
it's hard to explain, but it feels like your brain is vibrating for this 4 seconds. doesn't hurt. not quite uncomfortable. but, she had warned me before that some people have difficulty in the jaw/facial muscles. this happened to me.
my teeth would chatter as if i was cold with every pulse. so, tomorrow i will be wearing a mouthguard.
so, not too troublesome at all overall. i am looking forward to getting to a higher threshold. :)
i can again say i had a very pleasant night out with a friend tonight and the music thing was pretty cool too. i listened to some miles davis and mozart and could really enjoy it. long time for that to have happened as previously mentioned.
i feel a little tired now. in a normal good way. ruminations are almost zero.
it's strange; i have to say the calmness i feel is a bit like what i felt with ect. but, i now realize there was a almost euphoric unnatural feel goodness with ect. that is not the case here. just a more overall normal homeostasis. (love when i can use my greek!)
also, i am on klonopin only. no ad's right now. god i want off the k.
overall i am very pleased and cautiously optimistic.
let me know if you have any questions.
i'm praying for me and all of us that this thing is another tool in the box against this mofo of a condition.
john
Posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 3:46:11
In reply to day 1 deep tms, posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 3:41:15
here is how they set you up;
Posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 3:59:30
In reply to Re: i start tomorrow 7pm..., posted by Beckett on August 4, 2014, at 23:42:34
here is a video of regular tms. the 'calibration' is the same with deep tms; make that right thumb move involuntarily;
Posted by Hugh on August 5, 2014, at 10:31:49
In reply to day 1 deep tms, posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 3:41:15
> been listening (and feeling) music too...been a long time since that has happened.
That's a good sign. I used to feel a warm glow in my chest when I listened to music I loved. It's been years since I experienced that.
I watched the videos. That blue headgear does look like a Red Grange helmet.
Posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 11:15:12
In reply to Re: day 1 deep tms, posted by Hugh on August 5, 2014, at 10:31:49
> > been listening (and feeling) music too...been a long time since that has happened.
>
> That's a good sign. I used to feel a warm glow in my chest when I listened to music I loved. It's been years since I experienced that.
>
> I watched the videos. That blue headgear does look like a Red Grange helmet.thanks as usual hugh. yeah, i was almost tearful from joy to 'hear' my beloved miles and a few aria's from nozze di figaro by mozart. something 'familiar' was being felt. i hope it can continue and that it will come for you again. i have been driving my car w/the radio off now for almost 3 years and almost no music in the house as well. i have a huge portrait of billie holiday that a student painted for me and 3 claxton photos of miles, sarah vaughn and chet baker all up in my living room. they have all been 'silent' for many years.
i am so sorry about your anhedonia. i think at times it is the worst characteristic of my depression. i think i told you i used to be a music history teacher, so i find it so bizarre to simply not care about something i truly loved.
lol on your red grange comment. i said the exact same thing to the doc as she was initially getting me strapped-up! no lie. i also threw-in bronco nagurski's name for good measure. she did not know these names. he-he. to continue the football theme, she was all smiles when i scored '51' on the depression intake. i had put a note at the end that this was a good sign since i was #51 in high school and college football. i asked her if she knew who dick butkis was. she said of course!
thnx again hugh.
Posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 11:23:30
In reply to Re: day 1 deep tms, posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 11:15:12
just also wanted to report i slept very well and deep last night.
as mentioned the only med i take is klonopin. i have been struggling to get good sleep for a while now. i stopped the remeron a while ago and have just not been getting really deep restorative sleep very often since. again, this may be all placebo, but i will take it. i was tired last night in a good way when i went to bed.
my goal today is to go catch some waves at the beach. it's 80 degrees here on the beach w/no clouds. hope there is a bit of surf.
then, i go off to my 2nd treatment at 6pm.
will report back later...
Posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 11:26:04
In reply to Re: day 1 deep tms, posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 11:15:12
Posted by Hugh on August 5, 2014, at 14:55:42
In reply to Re: day 1 deep tms, posted by johnLA on August 5, 2014, at 11:15:12
You're welcome. My uncle saw Nagurski play in an old-timers' game at the University of Minnesota. The first time Nagurski was handed the ball, he took two steps and fell flat on his face. But he was a few decades past his prime by that point.
I grew up a Vikings fan, so I hated Dick Butkus -- and wished he were a Viking.
I'm hopeful that I'll be able to feel more alive some day. I felt fully alive for one week on baclofen (until I had to give it up because of insomnia), so I know it's still possible. I'm looking forward to the new treatments for depression, such as what you're doing now, and the depression helmet from Denmark, and LFMS, and GLYX-13, and some of the other drugs in the pipeline, such as ones that promote neurogenesis and anti-inflammatories that are far more effective and have far fewer side effects than the ones currently available.
Another treatment I'm interested in that's already available is a neurofeedback protocol that was recently developed by Peter Van Deusen, someone I have a very high opinion of. Van Deusen says the results he and clinicians he's trained have been getting with this protocol are "spectacular." And Van Deusen is a man who is not prone to exaggeration. The future looks bright.
Posted by johnLA on August 6, 2014, at 0:53:48
In reply to Re: day 1 deep tms » johnLA, posted by Hugh on August 5, 2014, at 14:55:42
> You're welcome. My uncle saw Nagurski play in an old-timers' game at the University of Minnesota. The first time Nagurski was handed the ball, he took two steps and fell flat on his face. But he was a few decades past his prime by that point.
>
> I grew up a Vikings fan, so I hated Dick Butkus -- and wished he were a Viking.
>
> I'm hopeful that I'll be able to feel more alive some day. I felt fully alive for one week on baclofen (until I had to give it up because of insomnia), so I know it's still possible. I'm looking forward to the new treatments for depression, such as what you're doing now, and the depression helmet from Denmark, and LFMS, and GLYX-13, and some of the other drugs in the pipeline, such as ones that promote neurogenesis and anti-inflammatories that are far more effective and have far fewer side effects than the ones currently available.
>
> Another treatment I'm interested in that's already available is a neurofeedback protocol that was recently developed by Peter Van Deusen, someone I have a very high opinion of. Van Deusen says the results he and clinicians he's trained have been getting with this protocol are "spectacular." And Van Deusen is a man who is not prone to exaggeration. The future looks bright.
>
>cool about nagurski. what a great name for a football player. yeah, i loved butkis, but i was a big rams fan until georgia knocked-off her husband and moved the team. still strange not to have a pro team here in LA.
here's a few degrees of separation hugh; in my last high school football game i had to go against a monster of a player named jomo page. he was alan page's nephew. ;)
even better; your optimism and hope for yourself and all of us. thanks once again on that!
i'll say it again; we are blessed to have you here regarding new treatments.
john
Posted by johnLA on August 6, 2014, at 1:10:54
In reply to Re: day 1 deep tms » Hugh, posted by johnLA on August 6, 2014, at 0:53:48
thought i would journal my process/experience with deep tms. i hope it is not too boring...
had my 2nd treatment earlier today. the doc increased the threshold or pulse intensity to 100. i really did not feel a difference in how it felt. tomorrow the plan is to go to 105 with eventually reaching 120. that is the therapeutic level.
this time i brought a mouth guard so i really did look like bronco nagurski. :) it helped with my teeth clattering. again no post headache or even pain during the procedure. just the anticipatory angst again with waiting for the 4 second pulse. after a few minutes i was fine and thinking about what i was going to have for dinner.
feeling calm and a bit tired again, in a good way. same as last night. basically zero ruminations.
went out to a nice dinner with a good friend and then had a good long visit back home.
i feel good. i will take that for sure right now. doc said some people get some response with the first one after i said probably just a placebo.
didn't get to the beach. that kind of bummed me out. would have shown some tangible movement.
i did get out of the house during the day to run some errands. = good.
still listening to music and feeling it. even sang to some old school madonna while driving in the car i am a little ashamed to say. i rolled-up the windows just in case. lol
i'm hoping/praying/wishing this keeps going...
john
Posted by ihatedrugs1 on August 6, 2014, at 11:08:57
In reply to day 2 deep tms, posted by johnLA on August 6, 2014, at 1:10:54
> thought i would journal my process/experience with deep tms. i hope it is not too boring...
>
> had my 2nd treatment earlier today. the doc increased the threshold or pulse intensity to 100. i really did not feel a difference in how it felt. tomorrow the plan is to go to 105 with eventually reaching 120. that is the therapeutic level.
>
> this time i brought a mouth guard so i really did look like bronco nagurski. :) it helped with my teeth clattering. again no post headache or even pain during the procedure. just the anticipatory angst again with waiting for the 4 second pulse. after a few minutes i was fine and thinking about what i was going to have for dinner.
>
> feeling calm and a bit tired again, in a good way. same as last night. basically zero ruminations.
>
> went out to a nice dinner with a good friend and then had a good long visit back home.
>
> i feel good. i will take that for sure right now. doc said some people get some response with the first one after i said probably just a placebo.
>
> didn't get to the beach. that kind of bummed me out. would have shown some tangible movement.
>
> i did get out of the house during the day to run some errands. = good.
>
> still listening to music and feeling it. even sang to some old school madonna while driving in the car i am a little ashamed to say. i rolled-up the windows just in case. lol
>
> i'm hoping/praying/wishing this keeps going...
>
> johnWhen I did rTMS, I remember the first changes I felt were enjoying music again and waking up without a sense of doom. That was around the three week mark. I also thought it was placebo effect but things kept on improving as days progressed, like wanting to run errands and go to social events.
Keep us posted!
ihatedrugs
Posted by Hugh on August 6, 2014, at 15:48:22
In reply to day 2 deep tms, posted by johnLA on August 6, 2014, at 1:10:54
> thought i would journal my process/experience with deep tms. i hope it is not too boring...
Not at all. I'm sure many Babblers are interested in trying Deep TMS.
There was already the Red Grange plate o' shrimp. Now there's one for Chet Baker. I was just driving with the radio on, and heard Van Morrison's When The Leaves Come Falling Down, which has the lyric:
As we're listening to Chet Baker on the beach, in the sand
When the leaves come falling down
Posted by Chris O on August 7, 2014, at 9:00:13
In reply to day 2 deep tms, posted by johnLA on August 6, 2014, at 1:10:54
Certainly not "boring," by a long shot, for me. Thanks for posting your experiences with deep TMS. I am considering trying rTMS and whatever experiences you share are helpful to me.
Chris
Posted by johnLA on August 7, 2014, at 15:39:16
In reply to Re: day 2 deep tms » johnLA, posted by ihatedrugs1 on August 6, 2014, at 11:08:57
> When I did rTMS, I remember the first changes I felt were enjoying music again and waking up without a sense of doom. That was around the three week mark. I also thought it was placebo effect but things kept on improving as days progressed, like wanting to run errands and go to social events.
>
> Keep us posted!
> ihatedrugsthanks for the encouragement dear colleague. :)
i hope you get your insurance sorted out and you can get back to the treatment soon.
john
Posted by johnLA on August 7, 2014, at 15:50:33
In reply to Re: day 2 deep tms » johnLA, posted by Hugh on August 6, 2014, at 15:48:22
> Not at all. I'm sure many Babblers are interested in trying Deep TMS.
>
> There was already the Red Grange plate o' shrimp. Now there's one for Chet Baker. I was just driving with the radio on, and heard Van Morrison's When The Leaves Come Falling Down, which has the lyric:
>
> As we're listening to Chet Baker on the beach, in the sand
> When the leaves come falling down
>lol hugh; i guess 'we' have a song! man hug; (((hugh))) he-he
more shrimp to add that plate of ours. the chet baker print by claxton was taken in my beach town in 1958. and, van morrison just kicks *ss. one of my pandora stations is named 'van morrison'.
also, i really love miles and coltrane, but i was a big fan of west coast jazz. there is a famous jazz club from the 40's/50's one town over called the 'lighthouse.' chet played there many many times. it's right on the beach. and! he even went to the same jr college i did.
how many shrimp more can we add? ;)
by the way i never heard of that expression. sounds southern. i like it.
Posted by johnLA on August 7, 2014, at 15:52:39
In reply to Re: day 2 deep tms » johnLA, posted by Chris O on August 7, 2014, at 9:00:13
> Certainly not "boring," by a long shot, for me. Thanks for posting your experiences with deep TMS. I am considering trying rTMS and whatever experiences you share are helpful to me.
>
> Christhanks too chris for the encouragement. i appreciate it. let me know if you have any specific questions. I can ask the the doc. she does regular tms as well.
Posted by Hugh on August 7, 2014, at 16:00:14
In reply to Re: day 2 deep tms » Hugh, posted by johnLA on August 7, 2014, at 15:50:33
> by the way i never heard of that expression. sounds southern. i like it.
"Plate o' shrimp" is from Repo Man.
Posted by johnLA on August 7, 2014, at 17:06:14
In reply to going for deep tms..., posted by johnLA on August 3, 2014, at 10:56:55
the day the music died...
had a bit of a bump yesterday/this morning. that's why i didn't post.
i think there were several factors for it, but it bummed me out to say the least.
some of the factors were dealing with the treatment itself and some were outside of the treatment...
first, i hardly slept tuesday night. i have been getting my treatments in the evening. i didn't realize it, but but maybe the activating of my brain may have been causing this. also, i quit remeron a few weeks ago. and, i have been using less klonopin. and, i had a 2 huge ice coffees from starbucks; 1 at breakfast and one at 7pm which i never do.
the day started out fine, but i got extremely tired/fatigued as the afternoon wore on. then, the depression really came back. intrusive thoughts, tried listening to some music. no go. got out for lunch, and then roughed it out until treatment time...
laying in bed for almost 4 years now i forgot about rush hour traffic. duh. add that to the list of stuff going on. also, driving down famous pch to the doc's office is right by the school that i used to teach at for so many years. i have been avoiding that area for a long time. i have a 2011 vw gti that i love. it has 9000 miles on it at almost 4 years of ownership. shows you how little i have been moving from my house.
next, my doc's assistant would be doing the treatment this time. there was just a different vibe. she is a sweetheart, but i could tell she was struggling to set-up the helmet correctly.
finally, the big one; the goal is to get to a threshold of pulses at a number of 120. my first two sessions were at 100. my doc had told me they would slowly calibrate up. besides that first day deal with the teeth and a little freaky feeling of a vibrating brain the first day, i was good to go and confident with going to 110...
well, we start and i really can feel a difference. again, it's not painful. just a strange sensation. also, my hands would tremor pretty strongly with each pulse. this made me anxious. the assistant noticed this right away and readjusted the helmet, but still i had the hand tremors and a brain that felt like it was doing the 'lindy hop' in my head. (that one was for you hugh.) i was like good god, this can't be right. then, i started getting some tremor at the base/back of my skull. basically right before each pulse. i was trying to breathe calmly and just get thru it.
then, something good happened. it was over seemingly much quicker than the first 2 treatments. i even asked the assistant did we do 18 minutes? she said 'yup.'
i asked her about the hand tremors and she said it was all fine. and, that within a few days i would acclimate and the tremors most likely would setllle down. i was not too confident to be honest with her words.
i left not feeling so great to be honest. a little beat-up; emotionally and physically.
i called my massage spa and said i need a massage tonight. i booked 2 hours. (i go about once every two months.) usually i like deep tissue massage. when i got their the girl who usually does my massages, and knows about what's going on with me could tell i was not doing so well. i asked her for the most gentle swedish massage she could give me. lol
i got home and i was just absolutely beat. took a little klonopin and fell asleep pretty quickly. 3 hours later i was up. i had slept very deeply, but not very long.
i was concerned to say the least. i was not feeling as good as i had the first 2 days...
oh yeah, the gal asked if i wanted to change the time of the treatments. i said yes, i think that would be a good idea. so, we set a time for 11am for today.
i was at starbucks having coffee and breakfast by 7am today. i sat by a fountain and read a little article about the dalai lama. the short article was about a trip the dalai lama had taken to aspen many years ago. this reporter had spent a whole week with the dalai lama taking him to meetings, lectures, dinners with celebrities, politicians, etc. but, it wasn't until the last day that the dalai lama got all excited like a child would to see something he had never seen; snow skiing. so, off went the whole entourage to a ski resort. the dalai lama gets on a lift with his robes and sandals and is fascinated at what he sees. he is even told there are people who ski with one leg. he is amazed.
they come down and go into the lodge for hot chocolate. the reporter then writes that a young waitress comes over to the dalai lama and plops right down and asks; 'what is the meaning of life?' the reporter realizes that not once during the whole week had anybody asked the dalai lama the most important question of all. there is a stunned silence from the vip entourage. the dalai lama says that is easy to answer; 'happiness.' he pauses. and then he says the hard question is not what is the meaning of life. this is easy to answer. no, the hard question is what makes happiness? money? big house? accomplishments? friends? or...he paused. 'compassion and good heart? this is a question all human beings must try and answer; what makes true happiness?' again he pauses and does not say another word. the girl stands up and says 'thank-you' and leaves to go back to work.
i started crying at friggin' starbucks. by a water fountain no less. my depression was back. and, bad.
i get home and do some things to keep my mind occupied and then head off for my 4th treatment today feleing pretty darn bad and anxious about this deep tms thing...
Posted by johnLA on August 7, 2014, at 17:08:06
In reply to Re: day 2 deep tms » johnLA, posted by Hugh on August 7, 2014, at 16:00:14
> > by the way i never heard of that expression. sounds southern. i like it.
>
> "Plate o' shrimp" is from Repo Man.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ToUAkEF_d4shame on me. i taught film history for god sake! :)
Posted by johnLA on August 7, 2014, at 17:30:32
In reply to going for deep tms..., posted by johnLA on August 3, 2014, at 10:56:55
did i mention i was greek? lol
and, that the greeks supposedly invented drama. there is even a ancient/modern city in greece still named drama.
what a difference a day makes as dinah washington would sing so beautifully...
so, i get there today. 11am. less traffic, more energy from me, but still worried it's already a failure and i don't think i'll be able to stand 10 to 15 days of increasing hand tremors and brain vibrations...
the kind assistant is there again and says we will do 110 threshold again. she had spoken to the doc and said no need to rush. some people need a bit more time/sessions to work up to 120.
i am not too confident at hearing this, but i strap-up, put the ear-plugs and mouth guard in and start praying...
she counts down to the first pulse; '1...2...3' and an amazing thing happens. just as she told me and and just as the doc had told me on the first day my hands have just a slight mild 'buzz.' more importantly my brain vibrating feels good. wtf? i'm thinking she must have dialed down the threshold, but i can't talk with the mouth guard in. she says 'a lot better today. as usual with everyone else as well.' still not too confident, but after about 5 pulses i close my eyes and just enjoy the ride. it feels good. really. i laugh at myself for the drama queen that i am while treatment continues.
and, then again, just like that it's over. the calmness and good feeling i had on the first 2 treatments is back. i walk outside and the sun is up. it's a sunny day physically and emotionally all of the sudden. no euphoria, but i'm in a good mood.
i decide to go over to a bike shop and take a look around. been wanting to that for a while now. thinking i'll get back into cycling like before i got depressed. had a long cool talk with the bike mechanic 'manny.' things are normal. no intrusive thoughts.
put the radio on and 'love the one your with' is on. i can feel it again. life is gonna be ok today. i'll take it.
i go do some errands that i have been putting of.
do the dishes when i get home.
call a buddy to go hit the beach (hopefully) late this afternoon and catch some waves.
write way too long posts here on babble. lol
wild.
may need to take some remeron tonight. so what.
maybe something is happening like i thought after the first two treatments...
Posted by johnLA on August 7, 2014, at 17:41:35
In reply to Re: day 2 deep tms » johnLA, posted by Hugh on August 7, 2014, at 16:00:14
> > by the way i never heard of that expression. sounds southern. i like it.
>
> "Plate o' shrimp" is from Repo Man.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ToUAkEF_d4more shrimp hugh...
a lot of 'repo man' was filmed in my town...
Posted by Tomatheus on August 7, 2014, at 17:45:20
In reply to day 3 of deep tms » johnLA, posted by johnLA on August 7, 2014, at 17:06:14
John,
It's really too bad that you seem to have hit a bump, as you said, after having received three days' worth of deep TMS treatments. I know that you wrote that the feelings of well being that you seemed to be experiencing earlier might have been part of a placebo response, but whether what you were experiencing was placebo or not, it can be frustrating when feelings of well being that emerge at the onset of treatment begin to fade away. Do you think that it could still be a matter of time before you'll start to see the true therapeutic benefits of deep TMS treatment?
I hope that your fourth day into deep TMS treatment will somehow go better than your third day went.
Tomatheus
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