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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 94. Go back in thread:
Posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:22:57
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 22:19:27
> All psychiatric medications can cause changes in thinking which may become permanent, however changes in mood cannot become permanent-the elastic nature of mood prevents this.
>
> Why are you messing around with dopamineantagonists?
>
> What antidepressants have you been on?
>
> EricAre you saying changes in brain functioning cannot become permanent?
I took Mirapex to help with decreased libido.
Mirapex also actually induced Restless Legs Syndrome.
Posted by baseball55 on February 2, 2014, at 22:24:33
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » baseball55, posted by herpills on February 2, 2014, at 22:03:10
>
> >
> > I get annoyed by the extreme negativity expressed about mental health practitioners on this board.
> > >
> > >
>
> Why does it annoy you?
>
>
> Should only people with great psychiatrists be allowed to post on this forum?
> Why so defensive? Of course, anyone should be allowed to post, with good or bad experiences. What annoys me is that wholesale condemnations of mental heath practitioners routinely go unchallenged on this board. I am just challenging them.Okay, so you had a bad experience. That doesn't mean all p-docs s**k or psychiatrists are in league against us. My experience has been different. I just feel it is necessary to insert this point of view on occasion and counter the frequent attacks on mental health practitioners. And I say mental health practitioners because I have read, on this board, not only wholesale condemnations of p-docs, but also of inpatient counsellors, outpatient therapists, and on and on.
I just want to go on the record to say - that hasn't been my experience.
>
>
>
Posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 22:31:25
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness., posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:22:57
What brain functions?
What antidepressants have you been on?
Eric
Posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:37:02
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » herpills, posted by baseball55 on February 2, 2014, at 22:24:33
> > Why so defensive? Of course, anyone should be allowed to post, with good or bad experiences. What annoys me is that wholesale condemnations of mental heath practitioners routinely go unchallenged on this board. I am just challenging them.
>
> Okay, so you had a bad experience. That doesn't mean all p-docs s**k or psychiatrists are in league against us. My experience has been different. I just feel it is necessary to insert this point of view on occasion and counter the frequent attacks on mental health practitioners. And I say mental health practitioners because I have read, on this board, not only wholesale condemnations of p-docs, but also of inpatient counsellors, outpatient therapists, and on and on.
>
> I just want to go on the record to say - that hasn't been my experience.
> >
> >
> >
>I'm just presenting my experience on here, which is quite different from the prevailing opinion on Psychobabble. Your thoughts on Psychiatry seem to be basically shared with most people on Babble. Your experience hasn't been ignored by mainstream Psychiatry like mine has. I hope you're thankful for this.
Posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:41:21
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 22:31:25
> What brain functions?
>
> What antidepressants have you been on?
>
> EricYou said these meds can to cause a permanent change in mood. What makes up ones mood? Their brain function?
I take it you are saying psychiatric meds cannot cause permanent change in brain function.
Posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 23:30:42
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:41:21
Meds can cause permanent chanages in brain function, for example, tardive dyskenasia.
But can they make you permanently depressed? No. That would take some major alterations to brain structure.
What antidepressants have you been on?
Eric
Posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 8:37:34
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » SLS, posted by herpills on February 2, 2014, at 13:54:24
>
> >
> > > How do you know?
> >
> > Exposure.Exposure to a bunch of different doctors in several different venues. I've been treated by local doctors, doctors at major universities, teaching hospitals, and at the NIH.
> > > What makes them great?
> > What criteria in particular would you like for people to rate psychiatrists on?
> I'm not sure, one reason why I brought it up!Okay, yes. You are right.
I don't know how to answer that. Of course, having a track record of successfully treating people is one criterion. Compassion and attentiveness. Insight into what it is like to experience mental illness - knowing how intensely painful and unrelenting it can be. Able to keep up with the latest research and clinical diagnostic and treatment strategies. Willing to take on challenging cases and motivated to research and confer with colleagues. Has a good foundation in medicine and understands the body as an integrated system. Willing to explore treatments that are aggressive and unconventional. Unafraid to use MAOIs and combine them other drugs. Unafraid to refuse the use of treatments that he believes are unsafe or counterproductive, despite the pleadings of his patients. Willing to listen to patients and respect their intelligence and knowledge. Understands that drugs can make someone feel worse instead of better - that suicide can be the ultimate side effect. Monitors a patient closely during the first three weeks of treatment when suicidality is most likely. Spends more than 5 minutes interacting with and evaluating a patient on follow-up visits. Willing to suggest to a patient that they seek a second opinion or consultation with another doctor when the strategies tried are inadequate. Understands the dynamics between the biological and psychological and appreciates the value of psychotherapy. Refuses to tell a patient that they are untreatable. Aappreciates the number of permutations possible of drugs when they are combined. Knows the pharmacology of drugs in addition to their clinical characteristics.
These are a few of my favorite things...
- Scott
Posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 11:51:57
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 23:30:42
>
> But can they make you permanently depressed? No. That would take some major alterations to brain structure.
>
> What antidepressants have you been on?
>
> EricHow do you know this?
But, if you lack the understanding into, at least the possibility of how Psychiatric Chemicals can cause a situation like mine, I don't believe advice from you based on past meds I've tried could be helpful.
Posted by Bob on February 3, 2014, at 12:00:49
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » herpills, posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 8:37:34
Unafraid to use MAOIs and combine them other drugs. Unafraid to refuse the use of treatments that he believes are unsafe or counterproductive, despite the pleadings of his patients. Willing to listen to patients and respect their intelligence and knowledge. Understands that drugs can make someone feel worse instead of better - that suicide can be the ultimate side effect. Monitors a patient closely during the first three weeks of treatment when suicidality is most likely. Spends more than 5 minutes interacting with and evaluating a patient on follow-up visits. Willing to suggest to a patient that they seek a second opinion or consultation with another doctor when the strategies tried are inadequate. Understands the dynamics between the biological and psychological and appreciates the value of psychotherapy. Refuses to tell a patient that they are untreatable. Aappreciates the number of permutations possible of drugs when they are combined. Knows the pharmacology of drugs in addition to their clinical characteristics.
>
> These are a few of my favorite things...
>
>
Scott:What area of the country are you in? I might consider looking for a pdoc that would consider the MAOI treatment along with nortriptline and possible augmentation with dopaminergic drugs as well on occasion. He has been a relatively good doc for me though and meets just about all the other criteria you've mentioned in your description. And I've been seeing him for almost 20 years. It would be a big change for me.
I'm also not sure how I would find a pdoc that I knew was willing to try before I've even seen him or her. Seems kind of weird to ask someone that as a pre-screening req.
Bob
Posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 12:50:24
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 11:51:57
How do you know the meds permanently changed your brain function?
Son, you're on a high horse, convinced this is what's happened to you. You come to this board to bitch about it and reject all offers for help. Keep ranting about it and its going to get you nowhere.
You're obsessed with the idea medication caused you brain damage. Just get it out of your f*ck*ng mind and maybe you'll be able to move forward.
Eric
Posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:00:06
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 12:50:24
I know this for the dame basic reason anyone knows how any Med they've taken affected them.
I come here for advice on my situation as well as discuss psychiatric meds.
I routinely have you and a few others discredit my experiences when I post on here. I appreciate posts by those who have an open mind.
Posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 13:08:02
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:00:06
Yet you don't have an open enough mind to discuss your past therapies with me. Weird.
Why can't it simply be your illness that worsened?
Eric
Posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:14:33
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:00:06
I wasn't exactly trying to be rude. But if some of routinely discredited and demean the experiences of a certain visitor to this sight, then how would you expect this person to reply, Eric?
You need yo accept that there are roughly 7 billion people on this Earth with different Genetic Make-Ups. Not all of them are going to react to putting a foreign chemical that sneaks past their blood brain barrier in a routine way.
And I find it incredibly ironic how people on this site who recognize and have experienced the stigma of Depression. And how many others just do not understand it, because it differs from the norm. But it is ironic, how many of these same people
turn around and look at me the same as ways as those with healthier minds look at them.You meed to get off your high horse, Eric. If you didn't notice, I began describing my situation to you seeking advice until you discredited my experience.
Posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:17:13
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 13:08:02
> Yet you don't have an open enough mind to discuss your past therapies with me. Weird.
>
> Why can't it simply be your illness that worsened?
>
> EricI'd be wasting my time telling you about my past experiences after you discredit my experience.
And its simply not just that my illness worsened.
Anyways, I gotta get off here.
Posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 17:05:47
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:17:13
I would not be so quick to discredit your experiences. I am convinced that exposure to some psychiatric drugs results in changes in brain function that can persist after they are discontinued.
How is your condition different now compared to before drug treatment? Which drugs do you feel are most responsible for these changes?
It is important to note that Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) tends to get worse over time in untreated individuals. It also has a tendency to morph in a way where melancholic thoughts recede and cognitive impairments predominate. I believe that when MDD first emerges in late-life, it also looks a lot like dementia.
1. How old are you?
2. At what age did MDD appear?
3. What was the course of your illness before treatment? Was it chronic or recurrent?
4. Are there any first-degree relatives with depression, bipolar disorder, or schizoid disorder?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 17:26:48
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » SLS, posted by Bob on February 3, 2014, at 12:00:49
> What area of the country are you in?
Near New York City.
I like Columbia / New York State Psychiatric for working with aggressive therapies using MAOIs. I have been seen by several doctors there. Patrick McGrath might be a good one to ask for.
http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=pjm5&DepAffil=Psychiatry
http://columbiapsychiatry.org/researchclinics/depression-evaluation-service
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 18:16:46
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:14:33
>I began describing my situation to you seeking advice until you discredited my experience.
I can only advise you if YOU keep an open mind. You are absolutely convinced medication caused your illness and won't look at it any other way.
My big question is: If medication has brought you so much ill, why do you insist on visiting med boards? Why not just give up on drugs?
Eric
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 4, 2014, at 3:37:05
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 18:16:46
> > I began describing my situation to you seeking advice until you discredited my experience.
>
> I can only advise you if YOU keep an open mind. You are absolutely convinced medication caused your illness and won't look at it any other way.Could I call a time-out?
1. If one poster has a bad experience with psychiatry, that doesn't mean psychiatry is always wrong. Just like if another poster has a good experience with psychiatry, that doesn't mean psychiatry is always right. Neither's experience discredits the other's.
2. A discussion is more likely to be productive if both "sides" keep an open mind. Maybe medication didn't cause someone's illness. But maybe it did.
3. The goal here is to be supportive, not to be right.
> My big question is: If medication has brought you so much ill, why do you insist on visiting med boards? Why not just give up on drugs?
Maybe they have an open mind. One bad experience, or even a string of them, doesn't mean their next experience won't be good. Hope springs eternal.
Bob
Posted by SLS on February 4, 2014, at 5:13:40
In reply to Re: Wrong and Right, posted by Dr. Bob on February 4, 2014, at 3:37:05
> One bad experience, or even a string of them, doesn't mean their next experience won't be good. Hope springs eternal.
Amen to that!
- Scott
Posted by Bob on February 4, 2014, at 11:34:14
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » Bob, posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 17:26:48
> > What area of the country are you in?
>
> Near New York City.
>
> I like Columbia / New York State Psychiatric for working with aggressive therapies using MAOIs. I have been seen by several doctors there. Patrick McGrath might be a good one to ask for.
>
> http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=pjm5&DepAffil=Psychiatry
>
> http://columbiapsychiatry.org/researchclinics/depression-evaluation-service
>
>
> - Scott
Ha! Oddly enough, NYSPI and Columbia is exactly where I went when I was an active DBS participant. I've been to those facilities a number of times. I have not dealt with the individuals you mentioned however. It would be difficult for me to slog up there from the Balto-Wash area in MD for active treatment. It was definitely a stretch when I was active on DBS.Thanks for the info... I will mull it over.
Bob
Posted by SLS on February 4, 2014, at 13:09:50
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » SLS, posted by Bob on February 4, 2014, at 11:34:14
What about Johns Hopkins?
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/specialty_areas/moods/
I bet Kay Redfield Jameson, Ph.D. would suggest a few names to you.
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/specialty_areas/moods/expert_team/jamison.html
- Scott
Posted by Bob on February 4, 2014, at 19:18:23
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » Bob, posted by SLS on February 4, 2014, at 13:09:50
> What about Johns Hopkins?
>
> http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/specialty_areas/moods/
>
> I bet Kay Redfield Jameson, Ph.D. would suggest a few names to you.
>
> http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/specialty_areas/moods/expert_team/jamison.html
>
>
> - Scott
Thanks for the links Scott. I actually have gone to a one-time consultation twice now at Hopkins, although that was over 10 years ago now. It was with Raymond DePaulo there in the Psychiatry Dept. It provided a little insight but no magic answers for sure. I also actually consulted with a doctor at the University of Maryland Medical Center for awhile as well.Bob
Posted by poser938 on February 4, 2014, at 21:20:38
In reply to Re: Wrong and Right, posted by Dr. Bob on February 4, 2014, at 3:37:05
> > > I began describing my situation to you seeking advice until you discredited my experience.
> >
> > I can only advise you if YOU keep an open mind. You are absolutely convinced medication caused your illness and won't look at it any other way.
>
> Could I call a time-out?
>
> 1. If one poster has a bad experience with psychiatry, that doesn't mean psychiatry is always wrong. Just like if another poster has a good experience with psychiatry, that doesn't mean psychiatry is always right. Neither's experience discredits the other's.
>
> 2. A discussion is more likely to be productive if both "sides" keep an open mind. Maybe medication didn't cause someone's illness. But maybe it did.
>
> 3. The goal here is to be supportive, not to be right.
>
> > My big question is: If medication has brought you so much ill, why do you insist on visiting med boards? Why not just give up on drugs?
>
> Maybe they have an open mind. One bad experience, or even a string of them, doesn't mean their next experience won't be good. Hope springs eternal.
>
> BobThank you, Dr. Bob.
Posted by poser938 on February 4, 2014, at 22:11:14
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus » poser938, posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 17:05:47
> I would not be so quick to discredit your experiences. I am convinced that exposure to some psychiatric drugs results in changes in brain function that can persist after they are discontinued.
>
> How is your condition different now compared to before drug treatment? Which drugs do you feel are most responsible for these changes?
>
> It is important to note that Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) tends to get worse over time in untreated individuals. It also has a tendency to morph in a way where melancholic thoughts recede and cognitive impairments predominate. I believe that when MDD first emerges in late-life, it also looks a lot like dementia.
>
> 1. How old are you?
>
> 2. At what age did MDD appear?
>
> 3. What was the course of your illness before treatment? Was it chronic or recurrent?
>
> 4. Are there any first-degree relatives with depression, bipolar disorder, or schizoid disorder?
>
>
> - Scott
>Just turned 26. You know how more and more people are prescribed Antidepressants and other Psychiatric Meds, when medication should have never even been seen as an option for their case? That's me. Its a bit embarrassing to say it, but what
pushed me into taking Psychiatric medication was after getting out of a relationship with my "first love". I was 17 and i had thought I lost everything after we broke up.But when I went to see a Psychiatrist and was prescribed meds, 4 different meds all at once on my first appointment.(Adderall, Aricept, Cymbalta and Geodon.. I was thinking "My situation isn't THAT bad, definitely not as bad as some people I hear about." I ended up only taking the Cymbalta and Adderall. I also did therapy. And before my first appt with the Therapist, I remember telling my mom "How can this guy just talking to me actually help?" I got my answer after my first appointment. All I
needed was to be shown the errors in my thought processes. I went back for more appointments and continued to benefit from it.Adder all made me feel hyped up and I don't think I ever noticed an effect from Cymbalta. But as time went by, I ended up having a panic attack. , my first panic attack ever. And from this day is when Psychiatric Meds first had its serious, long-term/permanent effect on me. The next day after the panic attack, I felt bad. I ended up discontinuing the meds and my mood never reverted back to normal. I could no longer spend a whole day in school. I had extreme anxiety, agitation and felt like I was in hell. Weeks, months and then a year went by and my mood never reverted back to how I get before starting meds. And at this time I didn't credit the meds for causing me to feel this way, since I had discontinued them.
So, after a year, I went back to the Psychiatrist and tried more meds. Cymbalta again, then Zoloft, then Wellbutrin and then Effexor. At 75 mugs of Effexor, I noticed a slight effect on my mood, but was insure if it was good or bad. So I asked to raise it to 150mgs. At this dose, I started feeling more agitation. And muscles in my face started tensing up on their own and it was a bit painful. It reminded me of the Tar dive Dyskinesia has read about, but I figured "Only Antipsychotics can cause that". My hair was also falling out and I felt an abnormal sensitivity with my moods being affected by foods I ate. But I kept taking it, and after a few, my emotions went completely blank....
I stopped taking it. After a few weeks, the blankness never went away. So I ended up trying Cyproheptadine to counter this. After a few weeks on it, slowly working up the dose, I suddenly felt much better one morning. Not all the way better, but I guess i felt about 75% myself again. But I still had the effect of my moods being strongly affected by foods I ate.
Anyway, I stopped all meds for over 2 years, hoping I'd go completely back to normal. My life was finally liveable, I never did revert back to my pre meds self.
I went to see a regular doctor. Had many tests done with nothing abnormal showing up. So, I decided on trying Mirapex.felt a slight benefit for a few weeks, then one day BAM, I was back to feeling I was in hell. I stopped taking it, after some weeks my mood never went to feeling better. I then tried Tianeptine and after 10 days it made me even worse. Then tried Ritalin, and after the first dose, this worsening was compounded.Then onto Cyproheptadine., since it was the only Nev to benefit me ever. After a few days it was clear it was helping me again. But this time MUCH more slowly, with each dose only having a slight effect . But I continued it for about 3 months, having to up the dose after about every 3 days because one dose would stop working. But over time, my mood got better and better and better. Until I got to such a high dose that I could no longer take it. That was 3 years ago, and since I've Bern off it, I've VERY slowly regressed back. I'm STILL regressing a tiny but every day. And I will until I get to how I was before I started it.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that Effexor had made me less able to do anything strenuous. And Mirapex compounded this. To where I can't reach my arms out without becoming weak all over and even more depressed feeling for the rest of the day.
I know my experience might be unheard of by many, but this is just how it as been.Anyway, I feel I've made this long enough. But that's my main experiences describing why I'm in the state I'm in now.
Posted by SLS on February 4, 2014, at 23:02:58
In reply to Scott (pretty long post), posted by poser938 on February 4, 2014, at 22:11:14
Thanks for replying, Poser.
I'll want to read your post again and see if I can help you in some way. I just wanted you to know that I'm not ignoring you.
My initial thoughts regarding your reaction to food is that you are experiencing an imbalance in your autonomic nervous system (too much sympathetic and/or too little parasympathetic). Do you experience mild heart palpitations after a meal? This might be part of any mood / anxiety illness you may have. However, I think it reasonable to believe that this dysautonomia can be precipitated or exaggerated by exposure to medication. I would be curious to know if your reaction to food is reduced when you reduce your intake of carbohydrates - especially refined carbohydrates.
The treatment your first psychiatrist prescribed to you was an abomination. You, of course, should have been prescribed psychotherapy as your initial treatment before moving on to biological treatments.
Any nausea?
Have you ever tried nortriptyline (Pamelor) or mirtazapine (Remeron)?
- Scott
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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