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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 21:34:54
From my reading recently, our belief about the baneful effects of ADs on adolescents are based on claims that have unfortunately become standard positions-- but which are not well supported. Mostly this may well be because of media reaction to partial research and an FDA process that was poorly conducted and thought through-- and which for some time has been directly questioned on the NIMH sites and by quite a few studies that I 've seen.
This questioning of the data that led to the black box warning hasn't been noted by the media---- and therefore it seems as if a possibly ill-advised conclusion about the effects of ADs on adolescents was promoted without any nuance or follow-up.
So I wish there were more focus on the research that shows that adolescents suicide has at least arguably dropped as a result of using ADs-- statistics that aren't totally stable over time anyway-- so that it's hard to arrive at hard and fast conclusions. (See http://nchspressroom.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/teen-suicide-and-antidepressants/). The claim is that there was an over-reliance on the statistics for one year-- 2004 -- in arriving at the conclusion that these suicides had increased. And if you look at the data for the years since 1990 or so, teenage suicide -- like the statistics for crime etc-- increase and decrease over time. Since there have been many sociological studies accounting for the increase and decrease of urban violent crime (especially by younger people), it's even more reckless to attribute it to ADs in one area-- psychiatry-- - without any apparent recognition of the reseach in other disciplines.
At the very least, the numbers seem conflicting, so it's quite possible that the claim that ADs lead to suicide etc are outright misreadings of data, or at least are far from proven.
Posted by SLS on May 18, 2013, at 21:34:55
In reply to Statistics on adolescent suicide, posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 12:16:06
Posted by linkadge on May 19, 2013, at 12:14:05
In reply to Statistics on adolescent suicide, posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 21:34:54
GSK hiding data which shows paroxetine increasing suicide and self injurous behavior doesn't help. Paroxetine was also shown (in one study) to increase suicidal feelings in health controls who took the drug for a few weeks.
I do think tht SSRIs have the real potential to increase suicide in youth. Youth already have the trendancy to act impulsively, without SSRIs coming in the way to blunt what little inhibitory executive function they have.
The only two times I attempted (as a youth) were after dose escalation of citalopram and venlafaxine. I do think the black box warings are well waranted.
Since the warnings went out, suicide rates may have gone up. My belief, however, is that this is due to a generalized loss of confidence in the psychiatric community as a whole. The result is that fewer patients get "treatment". It is the loss of hope that (IMHO) caused any such increased rate of suicide.
However, this does not justify the use of treatment that (IMHO) probably increase suicidal tendancies.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on May 19, 2013, at 12:25:25
In reply to Statistics on adolescent suicide, posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 21:34:54
Also, since the 2008-2009 market crash and ensuing economic instability, youth suicide has gone up worldwide - esp in countries hit hardest.
However, liberally handing out SSRIs to numb the drives and sparce creativite ingenuity of said hopless unemployed youth is not going to do much to solve the core issues.
Now you've turned the "lost generation" into the "lost and complacent generation". Oh sure, they're probably less likly to riot and cause havoc - which is all the government cares about.
So....heres to prozac in the water supply and ongoning debasement of the currency.
Linkadge
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on May 19, 2013, at 18:58:26
In reply to Statistics on adolescent suicide, posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 21:34:54
It struck me pretty soon after the black box was introduced that the antidepressants are a very diverse group of drugs, nortriptyline, sertaline, bupropion, venlafaxine and mirtazapine are all very different, and to lump them all together seemed like bad science
Posted by poser938 on May 19, 2013, at 21:58:50
In reply to Re: Statistics on adolescent suicide, posted by jono_in_adelaide on May 19, 2013, at 18:58:26
Data can be wrong often. I don't want to get in to politics, but a month before the presidential election it was reported that so many jobs were created. I guess like 100,000. Then a month after the election MSNBC did a quick report on revised jobs data saying that jobs were much lower for that month than though at first.
I agree with Linkadge, though.
And in my experience I don't think suicide is the worst side of antidepressants. Taking away someones drive, love and soul possibly permanently is the worst. And this isn't listed as a side effect, so no one can give fully informed consent when taking these meds. And what makes it worse is that since this isn't recognized as a possible effect, psychiatrists front recognize it.
Posted by linkadge on May 20, 2013, at 8:42:54
In reply to Re: Statistics on adolescent suicide, posted by poser938 on May 19, 2013, at 21:58:50
As a side note, the number of unemployed in the US is not dropping. The unemployment rate might be dropping (extremely slowly), but the labor force participation rate is also dropping.
Linkadge
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 20, 2013, at 10:35:20
In reply to Re: Statistics on adolescent suicide, posted by poser938 on May 19, 2013, at 21:58:50
> Data can be wrong often. I don't want to get in to politics, but a month before the presidential election it was reported that so many jobs were created. I guess like 100,000. Then a month after the election MSNBC did a quick report on revised jobs data saying that jobs were much lower for that month than though at first.
>
> I agree with Linkadge, though.
> And in my experience I don't think suicide is the worst side of antidepressants. Taking away someones drive, love and soul possibly permanently is the worst. And this isn't listed as a side effect, so no one can give fully informed consent when taking these meds. And what makes it worse is that since this isn't recognized as a possible effect, psychiatrists front recognize it.poser,
You wrote,[...taking away someone's drive, love and soul..possibly permanently...no one can give fully informed consent...psychiatrists (don't?)...].
This is the end of the thread.
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