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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 10:40:07
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » larryhoover, posted by Emme_V2 on December 26, 2012, at 18:28:22
Nice to see your name here, too, Emme. (And many other old-timers, also.) I should have stayed away from Admin, though.
Yes, I'm having a good winter. I have not been so well in a very long time. How about you?
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 10:46:40
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 26, 2012, at 0:32:50
> Yes, I think where nutritionists went wrong is that they looked at the SAD diet, which was high in fat and high in refined carbs, and has links to heart disease and diabetes, and decided that fat was the culprit. However it is the combination that is the problem. Of the two individually, refined carbs is the bigger cause of obesity.
Except for limited exceptions, carb intake appears to be the cause of obesity, IMHO, after looking at all the evidence.
> The only problem with a high fat low carb diet that I know of is when the diet is also low in oligosaccharides, which is normally the case with modern diets. I think paleolithic man consumed lots of inulin, whereas modern low carbers don't. This can lead to very low levels of bifidobacteria in the bowel, contributing to depression. Bifidobacteria like carbs, so if you cut back on them you need to supplement with GOS, FOS or inulin.
Good point. What are some common food sources for oligosaccharides?
BTW, I've continued researching the role of adipocytes with respect to systemic inflammation, and it would appear that dietary saturated fats have no effect on inflammation whatsoever. It is only when de novo lipogenesis occurs (sat fats created by the liver and fatty tissues) that the levels of inflammatory cytokines rise.
Lar
Posted by rca on December 27, 2012, at 11:50:23
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 10:46:40
All nutrition comes from plants (ok B12 from bacteria). Macronutrients are macro because they are needed relatively large amounts primarily carbs readily burned for energy, proteins for building (eg skeletal muscle), fat for storage of excess macronutrients (some fats used for building of course Im over-simplifying). There are hundreds of thousands of phytonutrients in plants the vast majority of which we do not understand what their function is in plants or in humans; however, we are beginning to see their vital protective role (for plants and animals).
Of course there are some nutrients that are not in plants, animals make them like cholesterol and arachidonic acid, When we eat other animals storages of these important nutrients they lose their nutritive role, the former compound responsible for heart disease and the latter implicated in depression (and inflammation).
The key in reduction of obesity is to limit fats (use high omega 3 to 6 ratio), use of complex carbohydrates and fiber for optimal timing of energy release, and provide adequate protein all accomplished with a plant based diet. However the gains of a PBD goes way beyond limiting weight gain it reduces the risk of the most common diseases of the western world.
And portion control as the only accepted technique (in every tested species I think)that appears to be correlated with long life is calorie restriction.
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 12:35:07
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 10:40:07
> I have not been so well in a very long time
That is a joy to hear.
What's the secret?
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 14:02:57
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » larryhoover, posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 12:35:07
This may sound a bit odd, but my current thinking is that most depression is caused by low bifidobacteria in the bowel. Known factors that impact on depression seem to reduce bifidobacteria. For example it is known that stress reduces bifidobacteria. So does a high fat diet. Both are linked to depression.
Why would low bifodobacteria cause depression? Well it seems bifidobacteria are critical in preventing endotoxemia. Endotoxemia causes the release of pro-inflammatory cytokines (PIC) which cross the blood:brain barrier causing depression. While it is not known exactly how bifidobacteria prevent endotoxemia, or how PIC cause depression, there is strong evidence showing that they do.
So, is the cure for depression simply to increase bifidobacteria in the bowel? Well, without well designed human trials this in unknown. However in the only trial I am aware of that looked at increasing bifidobacteria in depressed rats, the results were positive. In mice, increasing bifidobacteria was shown to reduce anxiety.
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:19:59
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by rca on December 27, 2012, at 11:50:23
> Macronutrients are macro because they are needed relatively large amounts primarily carbs readily burned for energy...
I know that what I'm suggesting is not consistent with current nutritional dogma, but carbs are not necessary in our diets. In fact, I would argue that they were only occasionally available to our hunter-gatherer ancestors, i.e. seasonally. Our default energy source is fat. Our liver can create glucose from protein. There is nothing essential whatsoever about carbohydrates.
> Of course there are some nutrients that are not in plants, animals make them like cholesterol and arachidonic acid, When we eat other animals storages of these important nutrients they lose their nutritive role, the former compound responsible for heart disease and the latter implicated in depression (and inflammation).
There is no relationship between dietary intake of cholesterol, and cholesterol levels in our blood. And if you read the following study, you'll see that high arachidonic acid levels can be present, in the absence of inflammatory derivatives. In all but the most recent work, any earlier study related to fat intake and sequelae was hopelessly confounded by an uncontrolled independent variable, i.e. carb intake. Only when carb intake is controlled can you see what effect is attributable to fat intake.
I think the following study has an interesting remark in the conclusions section. "Persistence of (low saturated fat diet) recommendations in the face of continued failure of large trials to show an effect of saturated fat remains one of the strange anomalies in current medical science."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2974193/
> The key in reduction of obesity is to limit fats
I believe I provided good evidence already of the falsity of that belief. Carb restriction is required.
> And portion control as the only accepted technique (in every tested species I think)that appears to be correlated with long life is calorie restriction.
Calorie restriction has not been shown to extend life in humans, as far as I am aware. Portion control is only necessary when your satiety mechancisms are perverted by carb intake. Again, I provided evidence for this mechanism already.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:39:47
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » larryhoover, posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 12:35:07
> > I have not been so well in a very long time
>
> That is a joy to hear.
>
> What's the secret?
>
> :-)
>
>
> - ScottThank you for the affirmation, Scott.
I really don't have a secret, other than hard work. Paying attention to the details. Maybe some good luck, too.
I was going to get into this a bit in another thread, but I think the most important changes were cognitive. Key, I think, was learning not to compare myself.
When I was deeply depressed, I had a clear memory of how my life had changed for the worse. I wanted to once more be how I remembered myself. But when I projected into the future, I only saw a failed version of what was to come. Thinking about those things exacerbated my depression. I had to learn to focus on today.
It was a gradual thing, to be able to moderate my own self talk, to redirect the mutterings in my brain, to keep from falling into vicious circles of negative thinking. Because you do react, emotionally, to your own thoughts, you are at least a little bit, creating your own reality.
I learned to take a daily inventory, of my energy, my desires, my needs. And I learned to focus there. And without any obvious realization of it, that also served to break the negative thinking associated with my past and my future. And as I did it better, I got better, which was a strong reinforcer of the adaptation I was creating for myself.
I developed a mental checklist. Getting enough sleep was an absolute essential. As was taking my supplements (antioxidants and certain minerals seem to be particularly important for ME). Choosing my battles. Not letting myself beat myself up for being unwell, but instead, replacing that with the knowledge that I was doing my best.
A lot of little things, really. But collectively, rather significant. And like I said, maybe there was a little bit of luck involved.
"I am a strong believer in luck and I find the harder I work the more I have of it." -- Benjamin Franklin
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:40:52
In reply to Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 14:02:57
I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
Thanks,
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 15:51:22
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:40:52
> I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
>
> Thanks,
> Larhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212092104.htm
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:03:49
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 15:51:22
> > I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Lar
>
> http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/05/28/high-fat-diet-linked-to-depression-anxiety-in-mice/39295.html
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212092104.htmThanks for your speedy reply. I was actually looking for a correlation in humans.
I was already aware of this rodent research, but it is inconsistent across studies. I can show you a rodent study where increasing fat decreased depression.
I also want to point out that these studies all have a confounding variable. They assume that the carb intake is irrelevant. At least in humans, carb intake has to be somewhere around 10-20% or less, for the effects of varying fat composition to be clearly observable.
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 16:05:08
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:40:52
> I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
>
> Thanks,
> Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 16:09:53
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:03:49
> > > I don't know of a link between a high-fat diet and depression. Could you provide any references for that?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Lar
> >
> > http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/05/28/high-fat-diet-linked-to-depression-anxiety-in-mice/39295.html
> >
> > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212092104.htm
>
> Thanks for your speedy reply. I was actually looking for a correlation in humans.
>
> I was already aware of this rodent research, but it is inconsistent across studies. I can show you a rodent study where increasing fat decreased depression.
>
> I also want to point out that these studies all have a confounding variable. They assume that the carb intake is irrelevant. At least in humans, carb intake has to be somewhere around 10-20% or less, for the effects of varying fat composition to be clearly observable.
>
> LarI'm not sure you will ever have a proper human trial to see if high fat feeding causes depression. It would be cruel.
Please show me a reference to a rodent trial showing a high fat diet reduces depression.
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:59:24
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 16:09:53
> I'm not sure you will ever have a proper human trial to see if high fat feeding causes depression. It would be cruel.
Observational studies are possible, but nobody ever properly conducted a study that controlled carbs while controlling fat. I found a bunch of improper studies, but they lumped refined carbs in with fried foods, and red meat. Hopelessly confounded. But depression was associated with those inflammatory markers, nonetheless. It was the attribution of that marker to fat that was flawed.
The studies I first referenced make clear that the inflammatory markers are not caused by high fat intake, but arise from refined carbs. Recent work has broken the confound.
One of the clearest blood variables associated with depression is high-density lipo-protein. When HDL is low, depression is high. And that is a marker of a high-carb diet. HDL is highest on high-fat diets.
> Please show me a reference to a rodent trial showing a high fat diet reduces depression.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22313665
Honestly, though, I don't put much faith in these rodent studies. We are not rodents. And they did not control for carbs.
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 17:08:43
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:59:24
I agree there are conflicting studies on whether a high fat diet causes depression in rodents.
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 17:15:41
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 16:59:24
> The studies I first referenced make clear that the inflammatory markers are not caused by high fat intake, but arise from refined carbs. Recent work has broken the confound.
>This review highlights the inflammatory and insulin-antagonizing effects of saturated fatty acids (SFA), which contribute to the development of metabolic syndrome.
Several studies have demonstrated potential health benefits of substituting SFA with unsaturated FA, particularly oleic acid and (n-3) FA. Thus, reducing consumption of foods rich in SFA and increasing consumption of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, lean meats and poultry, fish, low-fat dairy products, and oils containing oleic acid or (n-3) FA is likely to reduce the incidence of metabolic disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19056664
"Conventionally raised specific-pathogen free (CONV) and germ-free (GF) mice were given HF or low fat (LF) diet for 216 weeks. Body weight and adiposity were measured. In CONV but not GF mice, HF diet induced increases in body weight and adiposity."
"Bacteria and HF diet interact to promote proinflammatory changes in the small intestine, which precede weight gain and obesity and show strong and significant associations with progression of obesity and development of insulin resistance. To our knowledge, this is the first evidence that intestinal inflammation is an early consequence of HF diet which may contribute to obesity and associated insulin resistance. Interventions which limit intestinal inflammation induced by HF diet and bacteria may protect against obesity and insulin resistance."
"Clearly the bowel bacteria have a role to play in increasing inflammation with a high fat diet. The implication is that it is the high fat diets affect on the bacteria that causes inflammation and subsequent depression, not the high fat diet itself. If I can maintain bifidobacteria numbers I may be able to avoid any inflammation from a high fat diet."
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0012191
C57BL/6J and TLR4-deficient C57BL/10ScNJ mice were maintained on a low-fat (10 kcal % fat) diet (LFD) or a highfat (60 kcal % fat) diet (HFD) for 8 weeks.
HFD induced macrophage infiltration and inflammation in the adipose tissue, as well as an increase in the circulating proinflammatory cytokines. Furthermore, HFD induced colonic inflammation, including the increased expression of proinflammatory cytokines, the induction of Toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4), iNOS, COX-2, and the activation of NF-κB in the colon.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 18:18:48
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 17:15:41
> > The studies I first referenced make clear that the inflammatory markers are not caused by high fat intake, but arise from refined carbs. Recent work has broken the confound.
> >Unfortunately, you still have not appreciated the point I've been trying to make. Let me try again.
The combination of high fat/high carb is very unhealthy. It leads to all those inflammatory responses that we know contribute to a host of diseases.
Traditionally, studies have ignored carbohydrates in the dietary analysis. If you control for that variable, you see the real problem, which is that insulin changes all the body's metabolic parameters adversely.
If you provide a high-fat diet, but compare it under two conditions, low-carb, and high-carb, you will find that only the high-fat/high-carb combination leads to adverse effects. In fact, the high-fat/low-carb diet also has superior outcomes when compared to low-fat diets of any format.
> This review highlights the inflammatory and insulin-antagonizing effects of saturated fatty acids (SFA), which contribute to the development of metabolic syndrome.
>
> Several studies have demonstrated potential health benefits of substituting SFA with unsaturated FA, particularly oleic acid and (n-3) FA. Thus, reducing consumption of foods rich in SFA and increasing consumption of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, lean meats and poultry, fish, low-fat dairy products, and oils containing oleic acid or (n-3) FA is likely to reduce the incidence of metabolic disease.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19056664This review does not consider the carb intake, which is never controlled scientifically. They mis-attribute the adverse findings to fat, when the independent variable responsible for the adverse outcomes is high-carbs. And they interpret everything in this misleading way.
For example, the main study blames saturated fat intake for crap happening, but this is what the underlying reference actually says:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18394213?dopt=Abstract
"Most studies (twelve of fifteen) found no effect relating to fat quality on insulin sensitivity. However, multiple study design flaws limit the validity of this conclusion. In contrast, one of the better designed studies found that consumption of a high-saturated-fat diet decreased insulin sensitivity in comparison to a high-monounsaturated-fat diet."> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0012191
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
Both of these are: rodent studies; ignore carbohydrate effects; measure the situation after the carb-induced damage is done. I reiterate, a high-fat diet is only dangerous if it is also high-carb.
When a "traditional" diet study compares the high-fat and low-fat diet, they usually don't specify the carbs. But if they do, it is never equivalent to the carb-restricted diets I've been referencing. You have to take insulin out of the picture, or you've got a confounded (meaningless) study, in the context of the fat.
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 18:18:48
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are only interested in trials with humans which have involved very high fat and very low carb diets. I don't think you will find many of those.
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823788
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:13:43
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are only interested in trials with humans which have involved very high fat and very low carb diets. I don't think you will find many of those.
This is a very interesting exchange.
I am not as educated as you when it comes to this stuff - not nearly. However, what Larry has said makes a great deal of sense to me. Carbohydrate/insulin dynamics seem relevant to obesity, metabolic syndrome, and perhaps depression via inflammatory responses. I don't like the idea of high animal fat (too many free radicals formed?), but I have been eating 2 eggs per day for 30 years, and my cholesterol profile is normal. My triglycerides, on the other hand, are very high, but Abilify seems to be the culprit here.
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:15:58
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
> I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823788
>
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
>
> http://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=nutrisci_etds&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com.au%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dsaturated%2520fats%2520intestine%2520bacteria%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D39%26ved%3D0CGEQFjAIOB4%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fuknowledge.uky.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1005%2526context%253Dnutrisci_etds%26ei%3DNXbSUPe4D4qZiAf024AI%26usg%3DAFQjCNHfN1XEovpn4xkDtV2RcDCLcAOUxA%26bvm%3Dbv.1355534169%2Cd.dGY#search=%22saturated%20fats%20intestine%20bacteria%22
>I just checked and in the last study (thesis) the high fat fed mice were on 20% calories from carbs.
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:19:55
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
Very interesting citations.
> I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823788
>
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
>
> http://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=nutrisci_etds&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com.au%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dsaturated%2520fats%2520intestine%2520bacteria%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D39%26ved%3D0CGEQFjAIOB4%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fuknowledge.uky.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1005%2526context%253Dnutrisci_etds%26ei%3DNXbSUPe4D4qZiAf024AI%26usg%3DAFQjCNHfN1XEovpn4xkDtV2RcDCLcAOUxA%26bvm%3Dbv.1355534169%2Cd.dGY#search=%22saturated%20fats%20intestine%20bacteria%22
>
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2012, at 21:53:16
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:19:55
Hard or soft boiled eggs are natures best complete protein. I need to get back into this type of eating again. Phillipa
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:00:03
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are only interested in trials with humans which have involved very high fat and very low carb diets. I don't think you will find many of those.
I gave you some excellent full-text articles involving humans in this post, my second in this thread: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20121217/msgs/1033789.html
I have more, if you want them.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:03:51
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
> I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
If they are rodent studies (rodents eat a lot of seeds/grain), and/or they don't define the carb energy content, they are indeed invalid. At the very least, we don't feed rodents refined carbs, in any case (high glycemic indes). Think about that, for a moment.
If you don't assess the methodology, you have no business trying to interpret the results.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:13:38
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:13:43
> I don't like the idea of high animal fat (too many free radicals formed?), but I have been eating 2 eggs per day for 30 years, and my cholesterol profile is normal. My triglycerides, on the other hand, are very high, but Abilify seems to be the culprit here.
>
>
> - ScottJust a comment, Scott. Free radicals form from the oxidation of unsaturated fats. Animal fats are safer than plant fats in this regard, because of the degree of saturation.
Your body is fully equipped to metabolize saturated fats. Carbs are converted to stearic and palmitic acids, both saturated fats. Unfortunately, carbs stimulate insulin secretion, which blocks saturated fat metabolism entirely. That's the nub, because de novo lipogenesis (new fat creation from sugars) also stimulates those inflammatory cytokines. Dietary saturated fats do not.
Lar
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