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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by phillipa on October 22, 2012, at 9:54:39
In reply to Re: Fish oils » Phil, posted by Zyprexa on October 21, 2012, at 20:26:43
Zyprexa you like the Costco brand then? Phillipa
Posted by phidippus on October 23, 2012, at 14:22:56
In reply to F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by PrettyLady on October 21, 2012, at 0:08:55
>So then I went to a doctor and got Zoloft and took one pill and got even worse panic
This is not likely happen-it takes week for an SSRI to build up in the body. It was probably coincidence that you had panic symptoms when taking the pill.
>It's like a constant panic attack with feelings of dread, and despair and paranoia all at once. I also can't stop thinking about death.
Welcome to the world of Panic Disorder.
>I took the Zoloft (a single dose of 10mg) 5 days ago and am still having really bad cycling anxiety. What I want to know is, will this wear off, and how long will it take???
As stated earlier, 10 mg of Zoloft is not enough to trigger panic attacks. What you are feeling of a new Panic Disorder-which can present suddenly and without mercy.
I'm willing to bet your new panic symptoms are present because you stopped the Celexa and Zoloft which were probably affording you protection from the panic symptoms.
The most sensible thing would be to continue taking the Ativan while you restart the Zoloft or the Celexa.
One pill of Zoloft is not going to make your panic symptoms worse.
Eric
Posted by phidippus on October 23, 2012, at 14:34:10
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by PrettyLady on October 22, 2012, at 0:33:14
>I've had all the strangest symptoms and seen tons of doctors and they all have no idea what to tell me, because there's no literature on what crazy things happen to the body after you go off of meds that you went on when you were 13 years old.
I sense some psychosomatic stuff going on. Not a lot of crazy happens to the body once you've gone off of psychiatric medication, however the mind can get filled with anxiety about what could be wrong.
>I've had all the strangest symptoms and seen tons of doctor
Seeing tons of doctors is a classic sign of hypocondriasis. Why have you needed to see a lot of doctors?
>The worst of it that I'd had lately was extreme pressure in my head with confusion and memory loss, irritability, deep depression and paranoid anxiety.
You stopped your antidepressant, correct? These are things you are going to feel.
>This Lithium Orotate stuff is helping me more than anything ever has
An indication you may be bipolar. Why don't you try Lithium Carbonate?
Eric
Posted by PrettyLady on October 25, 2012, at 8:48:30
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers » PrettyLady, posted by phidippus on October 23, 2012, at 14:22:56
Eric,
This is not true. For people with bipolar and BPD, SSRIs can send you into mania or an agitated state which is exactly what's happened to me. If you google "Prozac made me panic" you will find that many people have had this reaction. It's not the norm, but it happens. Again I said Zoloft, but that was a typo, I meant Prozac was the most recent ssri. And I have been off the previous Celexa and Zoloft for about 3 months. And my panic was not this bad even off of those two. I was anxious, irritable, and depressed, but none of this crazy constant panic anxiety. This is different. I know it sounds crazy, but it's the truth of my experience.
I also started Lamictal a couple days ago and it's made my panic worse also, I have been up since 2 am with a sense of a kind of burning sensation in my limbs. Finally broke and took an Ativan. Going to try to talk to my doc today. Sent her a major distress call. Called parents, brother, doctor, now going to email Naturopath. Had to tell professor won't be coming into class today. Total nightmare. I hate my life, and I hate this condition. I just want to feel like a normal human being and get a job and finish school and not be a burden on everyone.
Posted by phidippus on October 25, 2012, at 14:31:51
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by PrettyLady on October 25, 2012, at 8:48:30
>This is not true. For people with bipolar and BPD, SSRIs can send you into mania or an agitated state which is exactly what's happened to me
Tell me the timeline of exactly what happened. It is not typical that a single dose of antidepressant would send one into a manic state. Everytime that I've been on antidepressant and it caused a manic switch, it took a week or two.
>I meant Prozac was the most recent ssri.
How long have you been taking the Prozac?
If you are bipolar, why are you taking all these antidepressants without being on a mood stabilizer? You stated Lithium Orotate helped you-I don't see why Lithium Carbonate wouldn't work for you.
>I also started Lamictal a couple days ago and it's made my panic worse also,
Why Lamictal instead of Lithium? Lamictal can be very activating-it made my panic symptoms worse.
Eric
Posted by GreenP on October 25, 2012, at 14:54:54
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers » PrettyLady, posted by phidippus on October 25, 2012, at 14:31:51
It did make your panic worse? I'm sorry to hear that, but releived it happened to someone else too so I know i"m not crazy. I literally took one dose of Prozac and it caused me to panic... Here's the timeline:
at age 13 I was on many different mood stabilizers and antidpressants. When I was 21 I tried to get off of everything, and did very poorly. So I went back on.
Two years ago::: I was on Seroquel and Celexa, and the Seroquel gave me horrible stomach cramping, and facial twitching. Turned out I had an impacted bowel and I went off of it.
On Celexa I was so sedated, and my anxiety was still horrible, so decided to try to switch back to zoloft. (the best I ever was was when I was 19, on seroquel and zoloft).
So three months::: ago I began to titrate down on the Celexa and introduced Zoloft and began having insane symptoms: hot flashes, back spasms, seeing lights, panic. It was so crazy and terrible that I decided to try to just stay off of meds, as I became paranoid about my health.
Since then things have been really tough. I am so exhausted, panicked, depressed, and hypersensitive emotionally. I've worked with a naturopath and it's not helping the mood stuff so I'm finally coming back to psychiatry.
I already talked to my doctor this morning and she says that Lamictal isn't an activating drug, but we are going to try Trileptal, as I think it helped in the past. I'm so worried about taking drugs long term, it's so hard to face this.
I don't show as bipolar because I never have a manic (happy) state. I'm always tired, depressed and anxious. So it's more likely some random mood disorder or BPD.
Thank you for the responses. Do you take Lithium? Do you know anything about Trileptal?
I really want to try just the Lithium Orotate in a higher dose, but money's tight and I haven't been able to find a NP to try this. I don't know if it would work.
Posted by phidippus on October 25, 2012, at 16:35:06
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by GreenP on October 25, 2012, at 14:54:54
>On Celexa I was so sedated, and my anxiety was still horrible, so decided to try to switch back to zoloft.
If you are bipolar, you should have been on a mood stabilizer along with the antidepressants, otherwise you would have experienced manic symptoms-in your case, worsened anxiety. Yes, mania can express as horrible anxiety. Do you remember having racing thoughts?
>So three months::: ago I began to titrate down on the Celexa and introduced Zoloft and began having insane symptoms: hot flashes, back spasms, seeing lights, panic. It was so crazy and terrible that I decided to try to just stay off of meds, as I became paranoid about my health.Again, if you're bipolar, the reaction to the Zoloft might have indicated worsened bipolar symptoms. I had much the same reaction to Zoloft and had to go to the hospital.
An alternative explanation is the Zoloft just made your panic and anxiety worse, which it can do.
>I decided to try to just stay off of meds
as I became paranoid about my health.If you are bipolar, the hard truth is you need to be on medication to keep your mood stable and you will need to take that medication every day for the rest of your life. It is not so bad, though as some mood stabilizers are actually beneficial to the health of your brain. Lithium is a neuroprotective agent and has shown protect against some neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's. I have been on Lithium for 10 years and I owe it my life. I've never had any health issues surrounding it.
Don't be afraid of the drugs.
>we are going to try Trileptal
I think this is a good choice. It should calm some off your anxiety, but I have a feeling some of your panic symptoms may remain, which you should continue to use the Ativan for. If the Trileptal really helps stabilize you, you may need to bring an antiidepressant back on board for remaining anxiety/depressive issues.
>I'm so worried about taking drugs long term, it's so hard to face this.
I understand. Can you tell me what you're afraid of?
>I don't show as bipolar because I never have a manic (happy) state.
You can have what are called 'mixed states' which are very unpleasant-one in a mixed state can experience intense anxiety, racing thoughts, motor agitation and awful depression all at the same time. Having these mixed states can qualify you for a bipolar diagnosis. This is how my bipolar expresses itself-I have never once been manic.
>Do you take Lithium? Do you know anything about Trileptal?
I have taken Lithium for 10 year. It works very well for both manic and depressive symptoms, which is not true for all mood stabilizers-most, besides Lamictal are only good for treating manic symptoms, but not depression.
Trileptal is an anticonvulsant and works by blocking sodium channels. It is related to another anticonvulsaant, Carbamazepine-basically its the same drug but with an extra Oxygen atom. Trileptal, by blocking sodium channels, reduces the firing of neurotransmitters in the brain, which makes it useful in the treatment of bipolar disorder.
I don't want to freak you out, but Trileptal has a 3% chance of causing hyponatremia-this is lowering of sodium levels and can be dangerous.
>I really want to try just the Lithium Orotate
Just try Lithium Carbonate-900 mg. Lithium Orotate is basically a salt of orotic acid and lithium-it tends to have more side effects than Lithium Carbonate.
Eric
Posted by Phillipa on October 25, 2012, at 19:20:22
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers » GreenP, posted by phidippus on October 25, 2012, at 16:35:06
Agree with above. Phillipa
Posted by PrettyLady on October 26, 2012, at 15:11:48
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers » GreenP, posted by phidippus on October 25, 2012, at 16:35:06
Thank you so much for your responses. I went back to the NP yesterday with my parents involved and she explained that it wasn't possible that the Lamictal made me anxious. It was awful, and I had a horrible panic attack afterwards. Sometimes I think I'm going to die from this whole thing. She even convinced my father it was in my head, but eventually I was able to show him some stuff online of people who had similar reactions.
I am starting to accept: I am bipolar, mixed state. I need medication. I am so sad about this, but I think it's my only chance at a normal life. I feel like I'm starting over at 27. I'm so sensitive to medications, so I'm afraid of taking them. But I'm also afraid of life right now. Please tell me people get through this, and they have normal lives. I'm scared I will be useless forever, and never be able to get on my own two feet.
Posted by TemporarilyBob on October 26, 2012, at 16:11:40
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by PrettyLady on October 26, 2012, at 15:11:48
Have you ever tried TCAs? Nortriptyline, amitriptyline ... any of those "-iptylines"? The responses you describe to SSRIs remind me of the 2.5 years of hell I went through because my pdoc was certain that one of those damn SSRIs was bound to work sooner or later, until threatening him with dropping him finally made him try nortriptyline. It's been a long haul since. I've also been lucky enough to have 2 pdocs at different times who were up on the bipolar literature. From what I understand of the way it has been explained to me, there are variations of bipolar that do not necessarily involve mania -- the mania is more substance-dependent and if you try to treat the "mania" aggressively you just make matters worse. Latest pdoc of mine has talked about how the latest research is talking about a bipolar III and even bipolar IV category and he admitted that it's still not all that well understood -- they know more about what NOT to do than what to do.
I'm not saying that's where you are, I'm just throwing it out there as a talking point for you and your pdoc. Your bipolar mixed states diagnosis might not be quite on the mark.
Obviously I'm bringing this up because my current pdoc says this *is* where I am and that 2-4% of the population (that's 2-4% of the general pop, not the disabled pop, so BIG nuumber), according to the studies he has seen, are being misdiagnosed. And, however innocently and well-intendedly, are being improperly medicated, making their situations worse, possibly worse than they would be unmedicated.
Posted by phidippus on October 26, 2012, at 16:12:32
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by PrettyLady on October 26, 2012, at 15:11:48
>I am starting to accept: I am bipolar, mixed state.
This is not a death sentence. I am bipolar, mixed state as well and I am doing fine on medications.
>I need medication.
So? The good thing is you have demonstrated a positive response to Lithium Orotate which inicates you will do well on Lithium Carbonate, which is the gold standard for treating bipolar disorder.
>I am so sad about this, but I think it's my only chance at a normal life.
You're probably right.
>I'm so sensitive to medications, so I'm afraid of taking them.
You have taken ADs before. Having to take mood stabilizers is no different.
>I'm also afraid of life right now.
What, specifically are you afraid of?
>I'm scared I will be useless forever, and never be able to get on my own two feet.
This is simply not true. You have resources and a strong support system, but most important of all, you don't want to be 'useless'.
Eric
Posted by PrettyLady on October 28, 2012, at 0:38:36
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers » PrettyLady, posted by phidippus on October 26, 2012, at 16:12:32
Eric,
Can you please tell me what your agitation/mania is like?
I'm experiencing such bizarre symptoms, like I've been plugged into a light socket. All my nerves feel warm, or buzzed. It's hard to explain, but I've never experienced this before. Have you ever felt that before?
I'm very confused as to what's going on with me. The doctor put me on Trileptal. I'm also wondering if I can take it and the Lithium Orotate at the same time. I know you're not a doctor, but it helps to talk this stuff out.
As far as fears with the meds, I'm very afraid of being on antidepressants long term, as the neurotransmitters tend to wear out, and then you get to that spot in life where no matter what antidepressant you switch to, they "poop out".
I full on feel like I'm in rehab. I went to a movie tonight and had to leave bc it made me so damn agitated.
Posted by phidippus on October 28, 2012, at 16:07:29
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by PrettyLady on October 28, 2012, at 0:38:36
>Can you please tell me what your agitation/mania is like?
I've never had a pure manic state. When I'm in a mixed state my anxiety goes through the roof. I become very depersonalized and derealized. I start having ideas of reference and often see things that are not there. I have aural hallucinations and strange thoughts or ideas. I become very agitated and can't stay still, so I pace alot. I also have bouts of rage that are scary. My thoughts race.
>All my nerves feel warm, or buzzed. It's hard to explain, but I've never experienced this before. Have you ever felt that before?
I sure have. Some medications have made me feel that way-Treximet, Trileptal, others.
I know you may be confused, but its no reason to be frightened. It may just be a side effect of the medicine you are on.
How much trileptal are you taking?
>I'm also wondering if I can take it and the Lithium Orotate at the same time.
No problem. I took Lithium and Trileptal together for awhile.
>I know you're not a doctor
Actually, I'm studying to be a psychiatrist ;)
>I'm very afraid of being on antidepressants long term
I would worry about getting on the right mood stabilizer before worrying about getting on an antidepressant again.
>the neurotransmitters tend to wear out, and then you get to that spot in life where no matter what antidepressant you switch to, they "poop out".
This is somewhat of a myth. Tachyphylaxis is actually a rare thing and what usually happens is the person taking an antidepressant experiences a worsening of symptoms such that the antidepressant cannot treat them successfully anymore. The best thing to do in this case is augment treatment with another AD.
Ha ave you thought of checking into a hospital?
Eric
Posted by PrettyLady on October 29, 2012, at 8:57:29
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers » PrettyLady, posted by phidippus on October 28, 2012, at 16:07:29
I added Seroquel (50 mg) yesterday to the mix without the advice of a doctor because I am so damn agitated and not getting sleep, and I woke up this morning and my heart was racing and I was having strong heart palpitations. It's still happening right now. Is this an adjustment thing or should I just stop the seroquel all together?
150 tripleptal AM
150 trleptal pm
25-50mg seroquel pm
Ativan as needed (usually .5 a day)
Posted by phidippus on October 29, 2012, at 14:27:12
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by PrettyLady on October 29, 2012, at 8:57:29
I think you're just having an unusual amount of anxiety that may be due to a mood imbalance or due to the fact you stopped your AD. You might want to increase your ativan.
Eric
Posted by PrettyLady on October 29, 2012, at 16:25:31
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers » PrettyLady, posted by phidippus on October 29, 2012, at 14:27:12
Yes, my anxiety has kicked into full gear, raging anxiety at this point. But the heart racing/palpitation was a real thing, I had my father check it out this morning. I think I should just not combine the seroquel and the trileptal if I can manage to sleep.
Will the trileptal help the severe anxiety? And how long does it take to work? I'm starting to feel really dizzy and tired from it but still crazy anxious.
Thanks.
Posted by PrettyLady on October 29, 2012, at 16:44:18
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by PrettyLady on October 29, 2012, at 16:25:31
I had another question.. you said that lithium helped your manic/agitated/mixed state. Do you also struggle with depression and did the lithium help you with that also?
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 29, 2012, at 16:59:46
In reply to Lou's response- » PrettyLady, posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2012, at 4:12:25
> > SOOOO... As o the beginning of last summer I developed bizarre symptoms switching from Celexa to Zoloft (neck stiffness, back spasms, hot flashes, panic, vertigo, total insanity) and had to stop both cold turkey. I've been working with a Naturopath to try to treat stuff with homeopathy, but due to it's slow nature, I decided to try 5HTP to lift my depression more quickly which BACKFIRED as I started to develop panic. So then I went to a doctor and got Zoloft and took one pill and got even worse panic, woke up at 3 in the morning, and have had cycling panic attacks ever since. It's like a constant panic attack with feelings of dread, and despair and paranoia all at once. I also can't stop thinking about death. It's so messed up, I can't deal with it and have to take ativan all day to cool it off.
> > I took the Zoloft (a single dose of 10mg) 5 days ago and am still having really bad cycling anxiety. What I want to know is, will this wear off, and how long will it take???
> > I started Lithium Orotate 4 days ago which is lifting the depression, making me think clearer, and slightly helping the anxiety, but this irritable, angry, crazy, paranoid anxiety that makes me unable to think straight is subsiquentially making me depressed is not letting up... very much. This is my concern. Please help.
> >
> > p.s. I've always had acute anxiety. But never this f-ed up like.
>
> PrettyLady,
> You wrote,[....started to develop panic...one pill and got even worse...panic attacks ever since...feelings of dread and dispair and paranoia...can't stop thinking about death...bad cycling anxiety...will this wear off...making me depressed..Please help...].
>P_L,
Now I see in your last post a continuation with raging anxiety and such and more drugs. When will it ever end? Now you can go the road of human achievement and try all he combinations of many drugs , but look at the lives of he others here that are tormemnted that are also taking mind-altering drugs given to them by a psychiatrist/doctor.
Let me offer you this. I do not want to see anyone in this type of torment from drugs. I know a way that could deliver you out of the bondage of depression, anxiety, addiction and such and if you want to go on another road other than human achievement, let me know. If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, come to the waters freely and without price.
Lou
Posted by PrettyLady on October 29, 2012, at 18:08:35
In reply to Lou's response-the offer, posted by Lou Pilder on October 29, 2012, at 16:59:46
Lou,
I appreciate your concern. I've been praying for a long time. I had a friend who tried some spiritual healing on me, and unfortunately it didn't work. Now I'm somewhere in the middle. I think that God helps us, and I think we have to deal with what we r given as well. But I'm open to your suggestions, I could always use some more spiritual help.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 29, 2012, at 19:29:24
In reply to Re: Lou's response-the offer, posted by PrettyLady on October 29, 2012, at 18:08:35
> Lou,
> I appreciate your concern. I've been praying for a long time. I had a friend who tried some spiritual healing on me, and unfortunately it didn't work. Now I'm somewhere in the middle. I think that God helps us, and I think we have to deal with what we r given as well. But I'm open to your suggestions, I could always use some more spiritual help.P_L,
The drugs are chemicals that have constituants used in nerve agents. These vchemicals cause different componants of the brain to be acted upon by the chemical. The chemicals can injure the part of the brian by either temprarily shutting it down or shut dowen that part of the brain forever. So if the chemical enters the part of thebrain that controls sexual aspects, it could cause that componant of the brain to not function and then there is loss of sexual feelings. Th chemical could effect other componants of the brain and efect nerves that control organs, in particular the heart and liver. Time after time, each oill taken is a roll of the dice as to where the chemical will land up to cause damage next. The chemicals could reach a componant of the brain or heart an cause instant death, sudden death. Or the chemical could reach a componant that could cause addiction to the drug, which most mind-altering drugs can and do.
The brain reacts to the chemicals by shutting down parts of the neurons so they do not work as a defense mechinism as seeing the drug as an invader. Here is a video that explains some of this. After the video, I could go on if you like.
Lou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at3Sg6qvgTE
Posted by Phillipa on October 29, 2012, at 20:04:50
In reply to Lou's reply-natgeominni » PrettyLady, posted by Lou Pilder on October 29, 2012, at 19:29:24
No No please. Support. Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 29, 2012, at 20:15:29
In reply to Lou's reply-natgeominni » PrettyLady, posted by Lou Pilder on October 29, 2012, at 19:29:24
> > Lou,
> > I appreciate your concern. I've been praying for a long time. I had a friend who tried some spiritual healing on me, and unfortunately it didn't work. Now I'm somewhere in the middle. I think that God helps us, and I think we have to deal with what we r given as well. But I'm open to your suggestions, I could always use some more spiritual help.
>
> P_L,
> The drugs are chemicals that have constituants used in nerve agents. These vchemicals cause different componants of the brain to be acted upon by the chemical. The chemicals can injure the part of the brian by either temprarily shutting it down or shut dowen that part of the brain forever. So if the chemical enters the part of thebrain that controls sexual aspects, it could cause that componant of the brain to not function and then there is loss of sexual feelings. Th chemical could effect other componants of the brain and efect nerves that control organs, in particular the heart and liver. Time after time, each oill taken is a roll of the dice as to where the chemical will land up to cause damage next. The chemicals could reach a componant of the brain or heart an cause instant death, sudden death. Or the chemical could reach a componant that could cause addiction to the drug, which most mind-altering drugs can and do.
> The brain reacts to the chemicals by shutting down parts of the neurons so they do not work as a defense mechinism as seeing the drug as an invader. Here is a video that explains some of this. After the video, I could go on if you like.
> Lou
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at3Sg6qvgTEFriends,
My apology for the comments in the discussion under the video. I did not intend for this version of the video to be used.
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on October 29, 2012, at 21:17:55
In reply to Lou's apology-Lou's reply-natgeominni, posted by Lou Pilder on October 29, 2012, at 20:15:29
Lou I accept your apology. Phillipa
Posted by phidippus on October 29, 2012, at 21:25:35
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by PrettyLady on October 29, 2012, at 16:44:18
> Do you also struggle with depression and did the lithium help you with that also?
I was on Depakote before Lithium and suffered horribly from depression. Lithium made a huge impact on my mood.
Eric
Posted by phidippus on October 29, 2012, at 21:33:47
In reply to Re: F U Prozac and 5htp and... serotonin crazy makers, posted by PrettyLady on October 29, 2012, at 16:25:31
>Yes, my anxiety has kicked into full gear, raging anxiety at this point.
The best medications to treat anxiety are serotogenic antidepressants and benzodiazapines. Lyrica, Gabapentin, Gabitril, Atarax and Keppra can also help.
>But the heart racing/palpitation was a real thing,
I don't doubt it, but the cause can be anxiety-you may be experiencing a limited symptom panic attack.
>I think I should just not combine the seroquel and the trileptal if I can manage to sleep
Seroquel and Trileptal can be combined safely.
>Will the trileptal help the severe anxiety?
It can help with some, but probably not all your anxiety. It kind of depends what dose you're on.
>And how long does it take to work?
It depends on how quickly you titrate up to a working dose. That can be anywhere from 900 to 2700 mg of Trileptal.
Eric
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