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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by phillipa on September 23, 2012, at 19:15:42
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 23, 2012, at 18:43:16
I agree. Phillipa
Posted by poser938 on September 23, 2012, at 21:31:55
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ? » jono_in_adelaide, posted by phillipa on September 23, 2012, at 19:15:42
in my case they definitely did more harm than good. it wouldn't be so bad if the effects weren't as of 7 years now seemingly permanent.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 23, 2012, at 22:13:54
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by poser938 on September 23, 2012, at 21:31:55
What do you think that they have done that has persisted for 7 years?
Could it not be that what you are attributing to the drugs is infact part of the illness that led you to take said drugs?
Posted by Nootril on September 23, 2012, at 23:49:27
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 23, 2012, at 22:13:54
I'm definitely not trying to discourage anybody who's taking anti-d's or is contemplating on starting. I myself am taking zoloft 100 mgs/day coupled with 100mgs/day of amantadine. I also take Aniracetam and Cerebrolysin. I've had a few concussions and have a small hemorrhage in the head of my left Caudate Nucleus, which is causing me great memory problems, attention deficits and depression with anxiety.
Zoloft is very good as it as affinity for the Sigma1 receptor, has moderate DRI properties at 100mgs and greater with some mild norepinephrine re-uptake demonstration as well.
I found this Journal abstract regarding Luvox, which is a very potent Sigma1 agonist , that demonstrates no cognitive problems according to some literature and a few users.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20373470
I know Phillipa was taking it with 5 mgs of Lexapro but I think she is discontinuing it?
I'm wondering if anyone has been on it long enough to ascertain its anti-depressant effectiveness from Sigma-1 Agonism with minimal to no cognitive compromise.It's effect on sleep architecture are unremarkable but I also hear its one of the worst offenders for constant tiredness and fatigue.
I have the whole article regarding Luvox only via copy and paste if anyone is interested, as it was a 24 hour paid view from Wiley Online Library,Human Psychopharmacology.
Posted by Nootril on September 23, 2012, at 23:56:51
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by Nootril on September 23, 2012, at 23:49:27
As an add-on, In Japan they only prescribe 2 antidepressants,Luvox and Milnacipran. I guess fluvoxamine for depression, anxiety, OCD and general phobias combined with milnacipran for increased therapeutic effect,motivation and energy, due to it's strong norepinephrine re-uptake inhibiting properties.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 24, 2012, at 0:10:46
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by Nootril on September 23, 2012, at 23:56:51
I'd say that Luvox would be a lot less likely to cause tiredness and fatigue than imipramine, amitriptyline and the other drugs that it helped supercede.
Its ok to demand Tylenol have no side effects, because it is only used to treat conditions of no consequence, but depression can be life threatening, and in a life threatening condition, some side effects from an effective treatment are justified
Posted by SLS on September 24, 2012, at 0:17:11
In reply to Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by Nootril on September 23, 2012, at 17:06:30
I think antidepressants are very capable of doing more harm than good - sometimes.
Just to play advocate of a contrary position...
> Here's a very thorough citation study...
I don't know how thorough it is, but it is very long.
I am not impressed by their citing the works of Irving Kirsch to come to their conclusions. It comes as a red flag to me, but that is another matter. They seem to question the conclusions of the majority of neuroscientists. They have only their conjectures - which is perfectly fine, as long as they are not accepted uncritically.
"At the same time, the assumption that neurogenesis is a beneficial effect of antidepressants should not be accepted uncritically."
Of course not! Good scientists are always critical of the results and interpretations of their own work and those of others. Nothing is accepted uncritically. This article provides lots of citations, though. To me, I see the the authors as using them as pieces to arrange in a way so as to create a picture that is to their liking. However, they often contradict themselves:
"In fact, if antidepressants were really effective in promoting the proliferation of new neurons, clinicians would have to weigh any possible
utility of antidepressants with the possibility that they could trigger brain tumors (Jackson,2009). However, there is growing in vitro evidence that antidepressants reduce gliomas and neuroblastomas, and these effects are mediated by neuronal apoptosis (Levkovitz et al.,2005; Cloonan and Williams,2011)."Well, which is it?!
They want it both ways here. Do antidepressants make cells grow or do they make cells die? "In fact", something is NOT a fact when one must set up an if-then sentence to portray it as being such. They have proven nothing by doing this. I would have considered it a clever strategy to further their thesis were they not to have included the "However" sentence that follows.
There is more that these authors say that I find are geared towards making data fit a thesis without making an effort to offer alternative interpretations, but I'll stop at citing the one example above. The data is real. Their conjectures are also real, but they are not established fact. They are opinions that I happen to disagree with.
For me to do a "thorough" job at critiquing the offering of these authors, I would have to find each article that they cite so as to review their selection of data and text. I am not inclined to be that thorough. Some of their stuff is reasonable. Some things I agree with. However, I have my own thesis regarding their thesis. I don't have to be scientific in reaching my conclusions, though. Neither do they. I could go cherry picking, too.
The NIH NLM does a nice job in providing an opportunity for authors to contribute their literature, even when their opinions are different from the existing consensus. It happens often enough that a minority opinion ends up becoming the new majority consensus.
- Scott
Posted by poser938 on September 24, 2012, at 0:17:44
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 23, 2012, at 22:13:54
i'm 100% positive.
i had a normal emotional range just like anyone. i could experience all the highs and lows that make life normal. my reason for starting on meds was because i was letting my emotions get to me too much and letting the world drag me down.after i started taking psychiatric meds in 2005 i have had severe anxiety along with a lack of being able to feel normal pleasures in life. my sex drive went way down at the age of 17. i stopped all meds and have been stuck like that ever since. worse and better some points when i would find a good med to try and counteract the long term effects.
my doc thinks my brain responds to meds like this (not going back to normal after stopping them) because of the encephalitis brain infection i had that resulted in a coma when i was 13.
Posted by SLS on September 24, 2012, at 0:26:08
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by poser938 on September 24, 2012, at 0:17:44
> i'm 100% positive.
I don't doubt you. However, it is true that some people confuse drug side effects with the symptoms of the illness.
I'm sorry that you should be suffering the residual effects of exposure to antidepressant drugs. There are lots of people on the Internet describing such things happening with SSRIs. I haven't seen it for myself, though. Maybe your doctor is right about ascribing to your coma your sensitivity to drug-induced long-term adverse effects.
- Scott
Posted by poser938 on September 24, 2012, at 0:32:24
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ? » poser938, posted by SLS on September 24, 2012, at 0:26:08
yes i have ran across a few sites where people were asking on a forum if a certain psychiatric med might still be affecting them a few years after stopping it. they describe certain side effects from it that never went away. the response they usually get is basically "no".
i was unsure at first about my situation. i just knew after i started these meds i felt so horrible. then after having more effects from other meds stick with me.. it became crystal clear what the problem was.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 24, 2012, at 1:41:08
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by poser938 on September 24, 2012, at 0:32:24
When I was 17, I had a headache, so I took 2 Advil. I still get headaches now.
Its suddenly become clear that taking 2 Advil when I was 18 caused me to have headaches my entire life.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 24, 2012, at 2:13:36
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 24, 2012, at 1:41:08
Sorry, that was a stupid post.... I'm sorry you're still ill, but i would realy encourgae you to focus on getting better rather than focusing on the drugs having somehow changed your brain.
Posted by poser938 on September 24, 2012, at 2:44:38
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 24, 2012, at 1:41:08
i do think i am about done with posting anything about myself on this site anymore.
Posted by SLS on September 24, 2012, at 10:51:54
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by poser938 on September 24, 2012, at 2:44:38
> i do think i am about done with posting anything about myself on this site anymore.
Don't let my stupid posts turn you off. I didn't mean to attack you. You were only the messenger. It was the message that I took issue with.
I hope you continue to post here.
I think that most people here mean well and are concerned with your welfare.
Man, am I sleepy. Time for a nap.
Be well.
- Scott
Posted by Nootril on September 24, 2012, at 14:08:09
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by Nootril on September 23, 2012, at 23:49:27
I have spoken today with Paul Andrews who is from the department of Psychology,Neuroscience and behaviour.He was busy with someone at the time but told me I could email him with my history and Intro.He has offered to speak with me further on the phone and refer me with a good friend of his who has vast experience and knowledge in the area of psychotropic drugs.Hopefully he can help tailor a protocol for my attention problems, apathy, anergia as a result of my left caudate lesion.
Oh! did I mention I live in Ontario :)
If anyone wants certain questions asked re: the article, feel free to post and I will wait to put them in my email to Paul Andrews.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 24, 2012, at 18:51:41
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by Nootril on September 24, 2012, at 14:08:09
To my mind, the fairly dramatic drop in the suicide rate that occured around 1960 (When imipramine and phenelzine were introduced into psychiatry) suggests that the antidepressant drugs do far more good than they do harm.
I think that the thresholds for prescribing such drugs have probably dropped too low (particularly in north america?), doctors seem to be starting to prescribe them for anyone who is unhappy or dissatisfied with life, but these drugs when prescribed properly can be life saving or life changing, releasing people from the grip of crippling depression, anxiety and OCD, and preventing suicide
Posted by phillipa on September 24, 2012, at 19:05:12
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by Nootril on September 23, 2012, at 23:49:27
No no not discontinuing the luvox. It has a grip on me. Please is there a way to get the full article on luvox. I've been looking for something scientific that is positive to remain on this med. My babblemail is open. Phillipa
Posted by Nootril on September 24, 2012, at 19:12:36
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ? » Nootril, posted by phillipa on September 24, 2012, at 19:05:12
> No no not discontinuing the luvox. It has a grip on me. Please is there a way to get the full article on luvox. I've been looking for something scientific that is positive to remain on this med. My babblemail is open. Phillipa
Phillipa sure No problem! How do you find it on cognition,sleep, weight gain and sexual effects?
Will send now in cut and paste to your Babble-mail :)
Posted by SLS on September 24, 2012, at 20:56:51
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by jono_in_adelaide on September 24, 2012, at 18:51:41
> To my mind, the fairly dramatic drop in the suicide rate that occured around 1960 (When imipramine and phenelzine were introduced into psychiatry) suggests that the antidepressant drugs do far more good than they do harm.
>
> I think that the thresholds for prescribing such drugs have probably dropped too lowI agree. Doctors are doing a disservice to people who have psychobiological mental illnesses by treating with drugs anyone who uses the word "depression" as a complaint. These treatments were never designed or studied to treat their condition specifically. Is minor depression just a mild presentation of MDD? Is mild depression and severe depression simply two degrees of the same illness? I don't think so. That is why I believe that the way clinical trials of antidepressants are currently conducted, a high placebo response rate will be observed. These studies recruit people with mild depression as well as those with severe depression. When biomarkers are identified and used to diagnose MDD, I think we will see that antidepressants are much more effective to treat this illness than previously thought.
- Scott
Posted by phillipa on September 24, 2012, at 21:09:31
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by Nootril on September 24, 2012, at 19:12:36
Got it and replied thanks. No weight gain, anxiety at times hurts cognition, as for sex since menopause not much interest there. Phillipa
Posted by Nootril on September 24, 2012, at 21:22:42
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ? » Nootril, posted by phillipa on September 24, 2012, at 21:09:31
> Got it and replied thanks. No weight gain, anxiety at times hurts cognition, as for sex since menopause not much interest there. Phillipa
Hmm really? With regards to compromised cognition what areas do you feel are mostly effected, is it attention, concentration and focus, working memory >> Acquisition, retention and retrieval.Is your processing of new information and problem solving skills also compromised ?
Posted by poser938 on September 25, 2012, at 10:36:49
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ? » poser938, posted by SLS on September 24, 2012, at 10:51:54
No, SLS i can understand where you are coming from. you're pretty cool. but i realized this website is for people who haven't had a situation like mine. anytime someone talks about having long term effects from a medication it is easy for a doc or a say something like "oh that is just your condition getting worse and not from the medicine"
heck, it took how many years to put the suicide warning on antidepressants!? and when prozac first came out it was thought of as the "wonder drug" and sent antidepressants mainstream. i'm sure when a patient was prescribed this new wonder drug that when going to a psychiatrist complaining of worsening depression after starting it,, the psychiatrist upped the dose, making the person feel worse and maybe pushing the person to do suicide.
people just shrug off serious situation like this.. and like mine. i have been looked at with so much suspicion when i mention a med affecting me permanently, and i am thanking God now that i have finally found a psychiatrist that takes my situation seriously. if i hadn't found her i would probably be dead right now.
i mention how i felt before taking antidepressants and how i felt a bit after starting them because i figure people would pick up on the mood change that occurred. and then this never goes away. i have experienced this effect too many times when taking a medication, and i do believe i would bean idiot if i didnt figure this out. but then i am treated like i dont know what i am talking about by doctors and by people on this site.
i still plan on posting on this site, but just nothing about myself. i have other sites and even YahooAnswers where i get much more relevant from others.
Posted by SLS on September 26, 2012, at 0:25:47
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by poser938 on September 25, 2012, at 10:36:49
> No, SLS i can understand where you are coming from. you're pretty cool. but i realized this website is for people who haven't had a situation like mine. anytime someone talks about having long term effects from a medication it is easy for a doc or a say something like "oh that is just your condition getting worse and not from the medicine"
I must say that if this were ten years ago, I would have been very skeptical - perhaps unbelieving - that anyone could experience the things that you describe. However, over time, after encountering so many self-reports, reviewing my own treatment history with psychotropic drugs, and using a little logic, I have come to believe that what you describe is very real.
I think I wrote something on the board the other day to the effect that today's minority opinion often becomes tomorrow's majority consensus. Of course, in some instances, the minority opinion will encounter resistance, and even disdain. For this reason, I try to keep an open mind. I don't always succeed, though.
I could be wrong, but I think you have encountered some resistance, but no disdain. I see that some people are trying to be genuinely helpful by reminding us that there are times when the symptoms of the depressive illness are confused for residual drug-induced adverse effects. Some day, this debate will reach its terminus when science provides the evidence that the brain can be persistently and permanently changed by exposure to psychotropic drugs. Of course, such can be desirable or undesirable, depending on the treatment goal.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 26, 2012, at 1:09:55
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ? » poser938, posted by SLS on September 26, 2012, at 0:25:47
It occurs to me that there is a well-known drug that produces persistent psychobiological effects long after it is discontinued: lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD). LSD is predominantly a serotonin receptor agonist (stimulator). It effects many receptors, but it is its stimulating the serotonin 5-HT2a receptor that is regarded as producing hallucinations. I imagine that this is modified to some degree by the ability of LSD to affect dopamine and norepineprine receptors along with producing glutamate release.
LSD does a lot of stuff.
- Scott-----------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_diethylamide#Pharmacodynamics
"Pharmacodynamics
LSD affects a large number of the G protein coupled receptors, including all dopamine receptor subtypes, and all adrenoreceptor subtypes, as well as many others. LSD binds to most serotonin receptor subtypes except for 5-HT3 and 5-HT4. However, most of these receptors are affected at too low affinity to be sufficiently activated by the brain concentration of approximately 1020 nM.[79] In humans, recreational doses of LSD can affect 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, 5-HT2C, 5-HT5A, and 5-HT6 receptors.[1][80] 5-HT5B receptors, which are not present in humans, also have a high affinity for LSD.[81] The psychedelic effects of LSD are attributed to its strong partial agonist effects at 5-HT2A receptors as specific 5-HT2A agonists are psychedelics and largely 5-HT2A specific antagonists block the psychedelic activity of LSD.[79] Exactly how this produces the drug's effects is unknown, but it is thought that it works by increasing glutamate release in the cerebral cortex and therefore excitation in this area, specifically in layers IV and V.[82] LSD, like many other drugs, has been shown to activate DARPP-32-related pathways.[83]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_diethylamide#Flashbacks_and_HPPD
"Flashbacks" are a reported psychological phenomenon in which an individual experiences an episode of some of LSD's subjective effects long after the drug has worn off, usually in the days after typical doses. In some rarer cases, flashbacks have lasted longer, but are generally short-lived and mild compared to the actual LSD "trip"
"Although flashbacks themselves are not recognized as a medical syndrome, there is a recognized syndrome called Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD) in which LSD-like visual changes are not temporary and brief, as they are in flashbacks, but instead are persistent, and cause clinically significant impairment or distress. The syndrome is a DSM-IV diagnosis. Several scientific journal articles have described the disorder"
---------------------------------------------------
Perhaps it is not so difficult to imagine SSRIs as being capable of producing persistent adverse effects long after their discontinuation.
- Scott
Posted by poser938 on September 26, 2012, at 13:09:36
In reply to Re: Do antidepressants do more Harm than good ?, posted by SLS on September 26, 2012, at 1:09:55
interesting.
the only non FDA apporved substance ive ever taken is marijuana. only about 2 puffs from it about 5 years ago.
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