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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sheilac on August 10, 2012, at 16:08:59
Ok - I am having an issue that has happened in the past.
I have been taking 600mg of Lithium (this is the 2nd or 3rd try). Both pharmacist and doc say since it is 150mg capsules take it twice a day.
I take my evening dose of 300mg with dinner. I sleep like a rock and wake up looking like it!
I had the same experience on Seroquel.
The problem is that with 300mg at night, within 3 hours or so of waking up I experience rage! This is why I stopped 600mg in the past. This rage also happened with Seroquel, I slept like a rock, but was rageful in the morning.
Do I need to switch to a different form of 600mg?
Will my body keep a steady state if I take 450mg in the morning and 150mg at night? I didn't have rage issues when I took 150mg at night.
Or is the 600mg too much for me? I am still taking Adderall. Is it time to stop that?
I'm just wondering why both Seroquel and Lithium would cause morning rage issues?
Now that I am on 600mg of Lith, is my brain missing a feel good, calming chemical?
Seems like 600mg would make me more calm, not angrier. The daytime dose seems fine. I guess I do feel edgier. Is there more serotonin hitting my brain (that has cause problems with me in the past).
I know it has something to do with the night time dose and having a short fuse in the morning.
I even take Klonopin in the morning.
What do you think?
Also - the bathroom issues are less with 600mg - that's good.
I hate to drop the Adderall, if that could be causing the rage (it curbs my appetite), BUT, the Adderall is making me seriously OCD. I can't stop shopping.
What's your take? Doc just shrugs her shoulders.
I see a new doc next week and I really need some info.
Thanks!
Posted by emmanuel98 on August 10, 2012, at 18:55:39
In reply to Calling Eric or Scott/ ANYONE..., posted by sheilac on August 10, 2012, at 16:08:59
Have you ever seen a therapist for this rage and irritabilty you feel. After all, these drugs are not intended to end feelings of rage and irritability. They are intended for depression, bi-polar, ADHD.
Posted by Sheilac on August 10, 2012, at 19:12:31
In reply to Re: Calling Eric or Scott/ ANYONE..., posted by emmanuel98 on August 10, 2012, at 18:55:39
Yes, I do see a therapist. But it seems like the anger and rage is tied to the meds.
I had some depression and anxiety before I took meds, but no rage like I've experienced since being on meds. Makes me wonder.
Posted by SLS on August 10, 2012, at 22:55:17
In reply to Re: Calling Eric or Scott/ ANYONE..., posted by Sheilac on August 10, 2012, at 19:12:31
> Yes, I do see a therapist. But it seems like the anger and rage is tied to the meds.
>
> I had some depression and anxiety before I took meds, but no rage like I've experienced since being on meds. Makes me wonder.
Does it make sense to temporarily discontinue the stimulant as an experiment to see if it is the culprit behind the rage? You would have an answer pretty quick.- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on August 10, 2012, at 23:32:12
In reply to Re: Calling Eric or Scott/ ANYONE... » Sheilac, posted by SLS on August 10, 2012, at 22:55:17
Makes sense. Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 11, 2012, at 6:31:11
In reply to Re: Calling Eric or Scott/ ANYONE..., posted by Sheilac on August 10, 2012, at 19:12:31
> Yes, I do see a therapist. But it seems like the anger and rage is tied to the meds.
>
> I had some depression and anxiety before I took meds, but no rage like I've experienced since being on meds. Makes me wonder.Sheilac,
You wrote,[...rage like I've experianced on meds...].
There is a growing body of evidence that mind-altering drugs based on the chemical constituants used in psychiatric drugs can cause homocidal/suicidal thinking that could lead to one killing themselves and/or others including mass-murder. A lot of the evidence I am prohibited by Mr. Hsiung from posting here. The prohibitions center around historical facts, facts that could mark the difference between life or death to some here IMHO. You see, this site is for support and education, education that could help you make a more informed decision as to take psychotropic drugs or not. But the prohibitions to me from Mr. Hsiung prohibit me from posting here facts. And with the prohibitions, then there could be an indoctrination here because of the facts not being able to be given to you here by me. And one person asked here something like why Mr. Hsiung has these prohibitions to me here. And I know why, but there is another prohibition here to me that prevents me from posting that here.
You see, I want to save your lives, and have you freed from addiction and depression. And I know a way that has been revealed to me that if I was not prohibited from posting what I need to post for you to be released from the bondage of slavery to addiction and depression, then you could have a new life. A life free from wanting to kill yourself and/or others.
But here is a post from someone that has some understanding of what I could post if the prohibitions were not in place here.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/201109902/msgs/996161.html
And then there is DR Moira Dolan. You can see her video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[youtube,Dr Moira Dolan, can antidepressants cause to violence]
Posted by sheilac on August 11, 2012, at 8:02:50
In reply to Lou's response-psohpsariegh » Sheilac, posted by Lou Pilder on August 11, 2012, at 6:31:11
I have reviewed your message, but it only refers to antidepressants, which I totally understand.
But what I am referring to is a mood stabilizer, Lithium.
Posted by sheilac on August 11, 2012, at 8:19:00
In reply to Re: Calling Eric or Scott/ ANYONE... » Sheilac, posted by SLS on August 10, 2012, at 22:55:17
Scott, I didn't take the stimulant today and I still feel cranky and irritable.
I actually feel better on the stimulant.
The irritability didn't occur until I upped the Lithium.
Same on Seroquel - irritability.
Does my reaction to these meds mean that maybe I am not bipolar? Maybe I am just mildly ADD with anxiety?
The scary thing is that without taking Lithium or Seroquel or any of the other mood stabilizers I am normal, just have anxiety, which leads to some depression and irritability.
BUT - if I were in a hospital setting and they put me on 600mg of Lithium and I became violent or rageful, they would just keep upping the dose until I was a zombie. That is scary!!!
In a hospital setting putting me on a high dose of Triletpal or Depakote I would become suicidal. THAT is scary!
So, for me, I can't help but think it is the DRUG.
There must be some people that a little goes a long way. It can't be possible that the "theraputic dose" is the ONLY way that these meds work.
The more experience I have with these meds, the more I distrust doctors.
Or maybe I have been misdiagnosed.
Or maybe a chemical gets shuts down in my brain when I take a decent dose of Lithium, Seroquel, Trileptal, Seroquel.
Am I the only person in the world that experiences depression and irritability on these drugs?
Something just doesn't add up.
I was hoping someone would say that the reason I am experiencing these feelings on these meds is because they are effecting THESE brain chemicals, or that I need to add another med to make up for THIS missing chemical now.
I don't know. I'm sure for a true bipolar who takes 1200mg of Lithium, it works great for them. For me, I would be suicidal. THAT just doesn't seem right.
Does anyone know WHY this is?
Posted by SLS on August 11, 2012, at 9:04:41
In reply to Scott or anyone/ not right..., posted by sheilac on August 11, 2012, at 8:19:00
I am taking only 300 mg/day of lithium and receive some antidepressant and mood stabilizing benefit from it. When I raise the dosage, I experience a flattening of affect and I don't like the way it impacts on my interest and motivation. I have taken as much as 1500 mg/day without success.
What prompted you to take lithium in the first place?
What are you like when you take no medication at all?
How old were you when your symptoms emerged?
Have you ever been diagnosed as having OCD or OCPD?
If, as you suggest, you have ADD without MDD or BD, you might try adding Strattera or even desipramine. Depression is not an uncommon complaint with people who have ADD. I saw Strattera completely eliminate the depression that presented with ADD in a friend of mine. Previously, he had felt only marginally better while taking Effexor. He had been on several other antidepressants without success.
I believe you are close to finding an answer. Don't give up.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 11, 2012, at 9:23:46
In reply to Scott or anyone/ not right..., posted by sheilac on August 11, 2012, at 8:19:00
> Scott, I didn't take the stimulant today and I still feel cranky and irritable.
It might be better that you taper the Adderall over the course of a few days so that you don't suffer a depressive rebound. I don't think that skipping a single dose of Adderall and waiting a few hours to see what happens is an optimal way to determine how it affects you.
You tend to think in terms of hours and days rather than weeks and months. This is not always helpful. I do think that your discontinuing Trileptal after a few days was justified.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 11, 2012, at 10:05:59
In reply to Lou..., posted by sheilac on August 11, 2012, at 8:02:50
> I have reviewed your message, but it only refers to antidepressants, which I totally understand.
>
> But what I am referring to is a mood stabilizer, Lithium.
>
> sheilac,
You wrote the above.
I see a picture using all of the drugs that you have posted about that you are taking. This includes Adderall and Klonopin in your post.
What I was referring to is the combination of all the drugs you are taking into your system and I know of effects from the combining of those chemicals in those drugs that could be unbeknownst to you and others here that respond to you.
Be advised that the term {antidepressant} can be (redacted by respondent} and cause some to be led to (redacted by respondent) and is part of a greater (redacted by respondent).
Lou
Posted by phidippus on August 11, 2012, at 18:07:16
In reply to Calling Eric or Scott/ ANYONE..., posted by sheilac on August 10, 2012, at 16:08:59
I can't explain your rage attacks. Lithium does not cause rage-it subdues all those catecholamines that would would cause rage. Increased seratonin is not aa likely culprit either because seratonin should be calming as well. I still think you may just be suffering a bad mood.
>Now that I am on 600mg of Lith, is my brain >missing a feel good, calming chemical?
Lithium is a feel good, calming chemical.
ALSO, you still may not have enough Lithium in your system!
Your body will keep a steady state of Lithium the way you are dosing it.
Stopp worrying about the Adderal
Eric
Posted by Tomatheus on August 11, 2012, at 18:40:27
In reply to Scott or anyone/ not right..., posted by sheilac on August 11, 2012, at 8:19:00
> Am I the only person in the world that experiences depression and irritability on these drugs?
When it comes to lithium, no, you're not the only person who's experienced irritability and agitation from taking the medication. Agitation and irritability were never big issues for me until I took lithium. When I was on lithium, any feelings of nervousness or anger that I'd experience in response to normal stressors would become intensified, and my responses to the stressors as a result would oftentimes be out of proportion. These types of responses occurred when I took lithium with Wellbutrin SR and actually became a lot worse after I discontinued the Wellbutrin.
I should probably mention that for me, neither the agitation and irritability nor the tremors that I experienced from taking lithium went away after I discontinued the medication. A blood test done on me about 1.5 years after I discontinued lithium found the substance to still be in my system. The version of lithium carbonate I was taking was made by Able Laboratories, which stopped manufacturing and distributing all of its medications after recalling them in 2005. The former research and development manager of Able Laboratories has said that he falsified the laboratory tests on the company's version of lithium carbonate.
Anyway, I wanted to respond to tell you that you're not the only person who's had irritability/rage issues with lithium. Unfortunately, I don't have much to offer you in the way of advice other than to tell you to pay attention to the signals that your body sends you after you take your medications instead of relying on some preconceived notion of how medications "should" work. Medication responses are known to vary from one individual to the next, and paradoxical reactions can occur, so just because you're not responding to a medication in the same way that most others do doesn't mean that your response isn't a valid one. Having said this, it's oftentimes a good idea to give a medication some time so you'll know how it's affecting you, but if you have difficulty tolerating a medication, it might be best to move on to something different.
Tomatheus
Posted by SLS on August 11, 2012, at 19:16:31
In reply to Re: Scott or anyone/ not right... » sheilac, posted by Tomatheus on August 11, 2012, at 18:40:27
> > Am I the only person in the world that experiences depression and irritability on these drugs?
>
> When it comes to lithium, no, you're not the only person who's experienced irritability and agitation from taking the medication. Agitation and irritability were never big issues for me until I took lithium. When I was on lithium, any feelings of nervousness or anger that I'd experience in response to normal stressors would become intensified, and my responses to the stressors as a result would oftentimes be out of proportion. These types of responses occurred when I took lithium with Wellbutrin SR and actually became a lot worse after I discontinued the Wellbutrin.
>
> I should probably mention that for me, neither the agitation and irritability nor the tremors that I experienced from taking lithium went away after I discontinued the medication. A blood test done on me about 1.5 years after I discontinued lithium found the substance to still be in my system. The version of lithium carbonate I was taking was made by Able Laboratories, which stopped manufacturing and distributing all of its medications after recalling them in 2005. The former research and development manager of Able Laboratories has said that he falsified the laboratory tests on the company's version of lithium carbonate.
>
> Anyway, I wanted to respond to tell you that you're not the only person who's had irritability/rage issues with lithium. Unfortunately, I don't have much to offer you in the way of advice other than to tell you to pay attention to the signals that your body sends you after you take your medications instead of relying on some preconceived notion of how medications "should" work. Medication responses are known to vary from one individual to the next, and paradoxical reactions can occur, so just because you're not responding to a medication in the same way that most others do doesn't mean that your response isn't a valid one. Having said this, it's oftentimes a good idea to give a medication some time so you'll know how it's affecting you, but if you have difficulty tolerating a medication, it might be best to move on to something different.
>
> Tomatheus
Good advice.Not that it matters too much, but perhaps lithium acts as a disinhibitor for some people, much like what can happen with benzodiazepines. That would explain the "paradoxical" reaction.
- Scott
Posted by sheilac on August 11, 2012, at 19:57:53
In reply to Re: Scott or anyone/ not right... » Tomatheus, posted by SLS on August 11, 2012, at 19:16:31
Thanks everyone for the input. One doctor did mention to me that I seem to experience paradoxical reactions to medication (all meds - not just psych meds - weird?, huh)
I didn't stop Trileptal after a few days, I had been taking 300mg Trileptal along with 300mg Lithium since March I think. But I just couldn't take the depression Trileptal was giving me. I even tried a higher dose of it and it got worse.
Lithium has been great at 450mg. Works fine with Klonopin and Adderall.
Problem is that docs like "theraputic doses". This is where I ALWAYS run into trouble. I don't know why.
Maybe a theory about the irritability and rage is because when I take a "regular" dose of Lithium, Seroquel, Depakote, etc. it flattens me out so much that I experience depression that comes out in the form of severe irritability, which in turn can lead to anger outbursts. Isn't irritability a byproduct of depression - and for me it would be from being too flat and over medicated.
That is the only thing I can think of. Either that or maybe I'm not bipolar at all. If a person doesn't respond to mood stabilizers does that mean that they aren't bipolar?
I find that low doses work. Not totally and completely, but who is ever "normal"? I know a LOT of nutty people who should probably be in therapy and on meds and are not and never will be.
I do wonder if I am stable enough. When I took the Trileptal combined with the Lithium (even though it made me depressed) and I took the Adderall, I didn't experience the hyperfocus issues on Adderall.
Although without the Adderall I am irritable, lazy and depressed.
Adderall has helped me get focused, out of depression and start a hobby that has turned into a business. So 5mg of Adderall is the best antidepressant so far for me.
Posted by Phillipa on August 11, 2012, at 20:35:12
In reply to Re: Scott or anyone/ not right... » sheilac, posted by Tomatheus on August 11, 2012, at 18:40:27
Oh wow I'm so sorry. But advise to others listen to your body. Meds at theraputic doses aren't for all. And what happened to you is tragic. Phillipa
Posted by Tomatheus on August 11, 2012, at 21:15:41
In reply to Your take - theories..., posted by sheilac on August 11, 2012, at 19:57:53
SheilaC,
I would say that although people with bipolar disorder tend to respond favorably to mood stabilizers (especially when they're taken at therapeutic doses), having a bad response to one or several mood stabilizers shouldn't necessarily mean that you don't have the disorder. I'm not a medical professional, but as I see it, if you meet the diagnostic criteria for a disorder, then you should be diagnosed with it, regardless as to whether or not you respond well to the medications that others with the disorder generally respond well to. Although it may be unusual to respond best to medication doses that are considered to be sub therapeutic, people metabolize medications at different rates, and some may be more sensitive to the effects of medications than others. So, even though responding best to mood stabilizers at low doses may be outside of the norm, perhaps the so-called therapeutic doses aren't for you if you have difficulty tolerating the medications at those doses.
I think that the reasons as to why some individuals have difficulties tolerating higher doses of certain medications are most likely complex and varied, and even though I'll be interested in seeing what theories people here offer as to why you seem to experience irritability and depression at higher doses of some mood stabilizers, I think that any ideas that end up being put forth will most likely be educated guesses at best. And the same applies to my ideas, which I can basically sum up by saying that responding best to low doses of mood stabilizers shouldn't (in my opinion) preclude you from having a bipolar diagnosis. Perhaps you're different from most people with bipolar disorder, but if you meet the criteria for the disorder, then I think that a bipolar diagnosis would be fitting.
Tomatheus
Posted by brynb on August 12, 2012, at 10:31:17
In reply to Your take - theories..., posted by sheilac on August 11, 2012, at 19:57:53
Hi Shiela-
I'm only on 300mg of Lithium and it's working great for now (seemingly keeping my mood stable & working as a good AD w/ Lexapro and Tramadol).
Have you tried staying at 450mg of Lithium w/ your other meds for a long enough period of time to properly judge the effects?
I still think that Adderall is the culprit for the irritability. I'm not sure how long you've taken it for, but going just one day off it won't tell you much. You need to give it a week. You're definitely going to experience depression, irritability and fatigue when stopping it, but that should all go away shortly.
I also think paradoxical reactions can happen w/ any med. I get mania from Neurontin and it's often used as a mood stabilizer. Go figure...
-B
Posted by Sheilac on August 12, 2012, at 13:27:30
In reply to Re: Your take - theories..., posted by brynb on August 12, 2012, at 10:31:17
As much as I hate to stop the Adderall, I think I might have to try for a while. It's going to be tough.
Maybe I will try it.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 14, 2012, at 18:17:40
In reply to Lou's response-psohpsariegh » Sheilac, posted by Lou Pilder on August 11, 2012, at 6:31:11
> > Yes, I do see a therapist. But it seems like the anger and rage is tied to the meds.
> >
> > I had some depression and anxiety before I took meds, but no rage like I've experienced since being on meds. Makes me wonder.
>
> Sheilac,
> You wrote,[...rage like I've experianced on meds...].
> There is a growing body of evidence that mind-altering drugs based on the chemical constituants used in psychiatric drugs can cause homocidal/suicidal thinking that could lead to one killing themselves and/or others including mass-murder. A lot of the evidence I am prohibited by Mr. Hsiung from posting here. The prohibitions center around historical facts, facts that could mark the difference between life or death to some here IMHO. You see, this site is for support and education, education that could help you make a more informed decision as to take psychotropic drugs or not. But the prohibitions to me from Mr. Hsiung prohibit me from posting here facts. And with the prohibitions, then there could be an indoctrination here because of the facts not being able to be given to you here by me. And one person asked here something like why Mr. Hsiung has these prohibitions to me here. And I know why, but there is another prohibition here to me that prevents me from posting that here.
> You see, I want to save your lives, and have you freed from addiction and depression. And I know a way that has been revealed to me that if I was not prohibited from posting what I need to post for you to be released from the bondage of slavery to addiction and depression, then you could have a new life. A life free from wanting to kill yourself and/or others.
> But here is a post from someone that has some understanding of what I could post if the prohibitions were not in place here.
> Lou
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/201109902/msgs/996161.html
> And then there is DR Moira Dolan. You can see her video:
> A. Pull up Google
> B. Type in:
> [youtube,Dr Moira Dolan, can antidepressants cause to violence]correction
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20110902/msgs/996161.html
This is the end of the thread.
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