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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JohnLA on February 11, 2012, at 22:18:40
i posted this in a above thread, but i figured i'd make a separate thread to try and get more notice.
found this doc near me;
http://painsandiego.com/2012/01/24/depression-ptsd-ketamine-rapid-treatment/
sound to good to be true?
curious as to what you may think.
thanks.
john
Posted by Phillipa on February 11, 2012, at 23:15:44
In reply to nasal ketamine for depression, posted by JohnLA on February 11, 2012, at 22:18:40
Have you researched this doctor as it does seem too good to be true hence might not be but would be nice if was true. Phillipa
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on February 13, 2012, at 0:05:54
In reply to Re: nasal ketamine for depression » JohnLA, posted by Phillipa on February 11, 2012, at 23:15:44
When somthing sounds too good to be true, it usualy is.
Its very interesting, and I think ketamine must have some usefulness, but wether it is as god and as safe as this report suggests is probably debatable
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on February 13, 2012, at 0:11:15
In reply to Re: nasal ketamine for depression, posted by jono_in_adelaide on February 13, 2012, at 0:05:54
That said, if everything else has failed, or you're on the verge of madness and cant wait for standard drugs to work, it would be certainly worth trying
Posted by JohnLA on February 14, 2012, at 20:30:48
In reply to nasal ketamine for depression, posted by JohnLA on February 11, 2012, at 22:18:40
well i've tried the following;
zoloft, lexapro, cymbalta, wellbutrin, celexa, effexor, and a few days on abilify before i ditched it. even tried medicinal marijuana. oh yeah! i also tried ect. almost forgot. ;)
the 30mg of remeron and 1mg to 2mg of klnonopin which keeps me stable, but has done nothing for my mood or energy or anhedonia...
i have an appointment for next month to get on the ketamine train.
wish it was sooner. i'll keep everyone posted.
john
Posted by SLS on February 14, 2012, at 21:08:39
In reply to Re: nasal ketamine for depression, posted by JohnLA on February 14, 2012, at 20:30:48
> well i've tried the following;
>
> zoloft, lexapro, cymbalta, wellbutrin, celexa, effexor, and a few days on abilify before i ditched it. even tried medicinal marijuana. oh yeah! i also tried ect. almost forgot. ;)
>
> the 30mg of remeron and 1mg to 2mg of klnonopin which keeps me stable, but has done nothing for my mood or energy or anhedonia...
>
> i have an appointment for next month to get on the ketamine train.
>
> wish it was sooner. i'll keep everyone posted.
>
> john
Good luck with that.Will you use ketamine intermittently as was done with the i.v. protocol or do you intend to take it every day?
- Scott
Posted by JohnLA on February 15, 2012, at 0:18:53
In reply to Re: nasal ketamine for depression » JohnLA, posted by SLS on February 14, 2012, at 21:08:39
hey scott-
always good to hear from you. hope you are doing ok or even better.
i actually have a choice; iv, sublingually, or in a nasal spray.
my shock doc at ucla only does it in iv form. quite expensive and at a higher dose than another doctor that i have found somewhat near me (san diego/ucsd/scripps inst). she administers it the 2nd and 3rd way i listed.
i'm going to san diego before ucla. ;) we had a pretty good conversation on the phone. she promised no miracles, but has seen very good results on a much lower dosage than the iv route. i actually am expected to stay near her for a week or so to get the dosing right and see what side effects there may be. dosing would not be every day once we figure out what the correct dosage would be. for example, some of her patients use the ketamine sinus spray about once or twice a week.
again, her quote was 'less is more' when it comes to ketamine in treating both depression and pain.
only bummer is i have to wait until next month. she has ben swamped since that npr article and word got out that she works w/psychiatrists (she's a neurologist) who have been using ketamine for several years now, off-label.
i'll keep you posted as usual.
thanks again for checking on me.
john
Posted by Iansf on February 15, 2012, at 10:45:56
In reply to Re: nasal ketamine for depression, posted by JohnLA on February 15, 2012, at 0:18:53
Yes, please keep us informed of anything you find out, especially in regard to dosing and sublingual, oral or intranasal administration since the expense of iv administration rules it out for most of us.
Posted by novelagent on February 18, 2012, at 12:47:33
In reply to Re: nasal ketamine for depression, posted by jono_in_adelaide on February 13, 2012, at 0:05:54
If you are predisposed (and never rule out your ancestry has a secret) you could be at risk for a bad trip which could trigger schizophrenia.
Since I'm not aware of any research that has been done on trying to figure out if the kind of trip counselling places like Johns Hopkins uses for their MAPS program compensates for someone at risk for a bad trip, I'm a bit weary of the enthusiasm for this stuff. On the other hand, it would be nice to know if tripping is something that trip counselling can make safe even for someone with psychosis (stabalized on an antipsychotic).
Unfortunately, I've written off the prospects of tripping in this lifetime so far.
Posted by roversreturn on February 20, 2012, at 13:46:07
In reply to ketamine can cause psychosis, posted by novelagent on February 18, 2012, at 12:47:33
> If you are predisposed (and never rule out your ancestry has a secret) you could be at risk for a bad trip which could trigger schizophrenia.
>
> Since I'm not aware of any research that has been done on trying to figure out if the kind of trip counselling places like Johns Hopkins uses for their MAPS program compensates for someone at risk for a bad trip, I'm a bit weary of the enthusiasm for this stuff. On the other hand, it would be nice to know if tripping is something that trip counselling can make safe even for someone with psychosis (stabalized on an antipsychotic).
>
> Unfortunately, I've written off the prospects of tripping in this lifetime so far.
>It may cause temporary symptoms in the first couple of hours, but i have never heard of this, and i am unaware of the mechanism by which its proposed - if you could cite a source for your argument I would be grateful.
Many thanks
Rover
Posted by Novelagent on February 20, 2012, at 16:33:17
In reply to Re: ketamine can cause psychosis...does it?? » novelagent, posted by roversreturn on February 20, 2012, at 13:46:07
http://www.ketamine.com/schizohypoth.html
> > If you are predisposed (and never rule out your ancestry has a secret) you could be at risk for a bad trip which could trigger schizophrenia.
> >
> > Since I'm not aware of any research that has been done on trying to figure out if the kind of trip counselling places like Johns Hopkins uses for their MAPS program compensates for someone at risk for a bad trip, I'm a bit weary of the enthusiasm for this stuff. On the other hand, it would be nice to know if tripping is something that trip counselling can make safe even for someone with psychosis (stabalized on an antipsychotic).
> >
> > Unfortunately, I've written off the prospects of tripping in this lifetime so far.
> >
>
> It may cause temporary symptoms in the first couple of hours, but i have never heard of this, and i am unaware of the mechanism by which its proposed - if you could cite a source for your argument I would be grateful.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Rover
Posted by roversreturn on February 20, 2012, at 20:28:53
In reply to Re: ketamine can cause psychosis...does it??, posted by Novelagent on February 20, 2012, at 16:33:17
>
> http://www.ketamine.com/schizohypoth.html
>
>
> > > If you are predisposed (and never rule out your ancestry has a secret) you could be at risk for a bad trip which could trigger schizophrenia.
> > >
> > > Since I'm not aware of any research that has been done on trying to figure out if the kind of trip counselling places like Johns Hopkins uses for their MAPS program compensates for someone at risk for a bad trip, I'm a bit weary of the enthusiasm for this stuff. On the other hand, it would be nice to know if tripping is something that trip counselling can make safe even for someone with psychosis (stabalized on an antipsychotic).
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, I've written off the prospects of tripping in this lifetime so far.
> > >
> >
> > It may cause temporary symptoms in the first couple of hours, but i have never heard of this, and i am unaware of the mechanism by which its proposed - if you could cite a source for your argument I would be grateful.
> >
> > Many thanks
> >
> > Rover
>
>Ok great, you may be right that this could be a no no for people suffering from schiz, but i would argue they may get better when the drug leaves their system (as in depression).
The article implies that ketamine's temporary activity on glutamte in brain during the time the drug is taken means that even 'normal' people have temporary symptoms of schizophrenia, this can be attentuated by lamotrigine apparently, once the two hours or so has passed one would expect to feel 'normal'. This is when the antidepressant effect appears to kick in.
"The psychomimetic effects of ketamine are transitional, reversible and influenced by time, dose and administration conditions". Therefore one would not expect ketamine to attribute to onset of schizophrenia, in the way that say, cannabis had been hypothesised.
Thanks
Rover
Posted by novelagent on February 25, 2012, at 3:10:31
In reply to Re: ketamine can cause psychosis...does it??, posted by roversreturn on February 20, 2012, at 20:28:53
First of all, no. no. no.pot is also "reversible." I don't think you quite grasp the concept of a compounding circumstance, in which a temporary psychosis triggers schizophrenia-- an insult, or trauma, of sorts, to the brain.
Would you say the flu can't kill someone with AIDS because the flu only lasts for a week or less in a healthy adult? No. Just because it's "reversible" in healthy subjects does not mean it is also therefore reversible in people who take it who are predisposed to schizophrenia and have schizophrenia.
Moreover, your argument about ketamine "reversing" schizophrenia is just baseless and made up.
> >
> >
>
> Ok great, you may be right that this could be a no no for people suffering from schiz, but i would argue they may get better when the drug leaves their system (as in depression).
>
> The article implies that ketamine's temporary activity on glutamte in brain during the time the drug is taken means that even 'normal' people have temporary symptoms of schizophrenia, this can be attentuated by lamotrigine apparently, once the two hours or so has passed one would expect to feel 'normal'. This is when the antidepressant effect appears to kick in.
>
> "The psychomimetic effects of ketamine are transitional, reversible and influenced by time, dose and administration conditions". Therefore one would not expect ketamine to attribute to onset of schizophrenia, in the way that say, cannabis had been hypothesised.
>
> Thanks
>
> Rover
This is the end of the thread.
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