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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2011, at 12:05:46
In reply to Re: Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 27, 2011, at 11:38:30
> This includes some doctors, who overstate the effectiveness of medication
I think this can be misinterpreted. For some people, antidepressants can be 100% effective - a true miracle. It's just that antidepressants don't work well for 100% of people.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2011, at 12:11:22
In reply to Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2011, at 10:41:12
> I'm beginning to think with doc cutting down on amount of meds prescribed that meds working are almost a fallacy and just a way to make money for big pharmacy. How many have actually gotten well with a med? Phillipa
After several years of failed treatments, I came to be 100% well using a combination of two antidepressants. Unfortunately, the doctor discontinued them after 9 months of remission. I imagine I would have been well for these last 25 years had I continued taking these drugs.
Life sucks sometimes.
- Scott
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 27, 2011, at 13:17:12
In reply to Re: Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by SLS on December 27, 2011, at 12:05:46
>It's just that antidepressants don't work well for 100% of people.
Definitely nowhere near 100% sadly.
Posted by Lou PIlder on December 27, 2011, at 15:42:56
In reply to Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2011, at 10:41:12
> I'm beginning to think with doc cutting down on amount of meds prescribed that meds working are almost a fallacy and just a way to make money for big pharmacy. How many have actually gotten well with a med? Phillipa
Phillipa,
You wrote,[...How many...?].
Here is a video that I would like for you to view.
Lou
To view this video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[youtube, The Truth About Antidepressant Studies]
This is by Dr Timothy Scott posted on Sept 14 2010 timed at 5 min
Posted by Christ_empowered on December 27, 2011, at 16:53:58
In reply to Lou's response-phuldhawul » Phillipa, posted by Lou PIlder on December 27, 2011, at 15:42:56
Antidepressants are now used by something like 10% of the US population. "Atypical" antipsychotics are widely prescribed for just about everything. Hopefully, cocktails are becoming less popular, but I don't know if that's the case.
I think psychiatrists and Big Pharma have overhyped meds, so people are being taught to think (thanks to direct-to-consumer drug ads in the US) that antidepressants are anti-sad pills or that Abilify really will brighten up your life. Its not that simple.
Personally, I'm thankful for Abilify most of the time. I still don't think of it as any kind of a miracle pill, because at the end of the day its just a relatively non-sedating tranquilizer that keeps agitation, psychosis, and mania at bay. I think the more serious your problem(s), the more you see the flaws in psychiatry and in the drugs the psychiatric system uses to "fix" people.
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2011, at 18:48:15
In reply to Re: Lou's response-phuldhawul, posted by Christ_empowered on December 27, 2011, at 16:53:58
> Hopefully, cocktails are becoming less popular...
Why?
Is there something intrinsically unhealthy about taking more than one drug for a given ailment? Some people need three or more drugs to treat hypertension / CVD. Is this a philosophy thing or a medical thing?
- Scott
Posted by emmanuel98 on December 27, 2011, at 19:42:01
In reply to Drug cocktails. » Christ_empowered, posted by SLS on December 27, 2011, at 18:48:15
Parnate pulled me out of a life-threatining depression. Now it seems to be not holding me anymore. I am doing DBT (which helps a lot) and trying lamictal and risperdal on a prn basis. In the past, risperdal helped me a lot and helped me immediately but made me gain weight quickly when I took it over a couple of months. So I am now taking 4 mg when the SI becomes too difficult to manage. I take it with ativan to put me to sleep. I had been taking haldol, which worked well, but left me with akathesia the next day, then I had difficulty teaching because I couldn't pitch me voice properly. My p-doc has great hopes for DBT. Not so much for drugs anymore.
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2011, at 20:15:59
In reply to Re: Drug cocktails., posted by emmanuel98 on December 27, 2011, at 19:42:01
Well my old pdoc said the dose amount of meds was being prescribed at lower doses and she frowned on med cocktails as one doesn't know what one does to the other or all combined. The new pdoc feels the same. He doesn't raise doses or prescribe a med to add to the mix so to speak. To Gadchik it's the lexapro will stop that tonight. Makes no sense to continue hasn't helped. The luvox must find Lar's thread if in archieves where it caused psychosis in him. Would like to read it. I know so many others family included that no longer take meds and are fine. Since most studies seem to be done for weeks and not years I don't think when meds were approved they were meant to be taken for years at a time. Exceptions of course bipolar, schizophenia. Medical meds are a different story but many could also be replaced with weight loss, excercise, healthy living, supplements that do the same. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2011, at 21:09:42
In reply to Re: Drug cocktails., posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2011, at 20:15:59
> Well my old pdoc said the dose amount of meds was being prescribed at lower doses and she frowned on med cocktails as one doesn't know what one does to the other or all combined. The new pdoc feels the same.
Some doctors are not equipped to prescribe more than one drug at a time. It is a matter of expertise (or lack thereof).
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on December 28, 2011, at 9:05:28
In reply to Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2011, at 10:41:12
Meds working aren't a fallacy.
Apart from all else, they definitely cause mental health "side effects". What is a side effect for me could be a helpful effect for others.
Risperdal as needed is a life saver. And I'm not sure what would happened to me if I hadn't been on one of the older AP's as a teen. On the other hand, I wish I'd never experienced an SSRI. It was entirely the wrong medication for me.
It doesn't need to be so black and white, or full of extremes. Medications don't need to be either worthless or the golden answer for everyone.
Some people can't function effectively without them. I had an aunt who'd end up in the hospital if she didn't take her meds, but lived a productive life with them.
With other people, they are very helpful.
With other people they're helpful when combined with other treatments.
With other people they may help in some ways while make other things worse.
With other people they may not be at all helpful.
Is it really impossible to think of individuals as having different needs?
Instead of saying medications aren't helpful, isn't it ok to say that you have been on medications that aren't helpful *to you*? And that you hope to have a better regimen in future, either with or without meds?
Posted by 10derheart on December 28, 2011, at 16:02:02
In reply to Re: Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by Dinah on December 28, 2011, at 9:05:28
Posted by bleauberry on December 28, 2011, at 16:12:28
In reply to Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2011, at 10:41:12
Ok, so this is totally unscientific, but if I were to just think about all I've seen at patient drug rating sites, psychobabble, and people I know in my life, I think the statistics would break down to something similar to this:
Remission.....10%
Significant improvement....20%
Quit....70%So in other words, through my eyes only, about 1 in 10 people is going to have a robust enduring remissioin. 2 more people are going to quite improved. The other 7 did not have encouraging experiences for varying reasons.
The drugs do work. Just not at the rate the pharm companies and abstracts of trials would have us believe. Science is not an abstract....it is absolute, it is fact....but within the medical/pharm community science seems a bit perverted because what is being putting out as scientific fact is not fact at all. Not an outright lie either. Not accurate, for sure.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 28, 2011, at 17:34:23
In reply to Re: Drug cocktails., posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2011, at 20:15:59
Hi PJ,
First and foremost, I think it's very important not to overgeneralise.
>Well my old pdoc said the dose amount of meds was being prescribed at lower doses and she frowned on med cocktails as one doesn't know what one does to the other or all combined. The new pdoc feels the same. He doesn't raise doses or prescribe a med to add to the mix so to speak.
I think that's specific to your doctor or your area. Some doctors use complex combinations and others don't.
>To Gadchik it's the lexapro will stop that tonight. Makes no sense to continue hasn't helped.
I never did understand why you were taking it! I have been asking that question ever since you started taking it.
>The luvox must find Lar's thread if in archieves where it caused psychosis in him.
I don't think Larry's response to Luvox is relevent. All that is important is your response to Luvox.
>I know so many others family included that no longer take meds and are fine.
Well, you can reduce your meds very gradually if you and your doctor agree that it's appropriate. Do not stop or reduce more than one medication at once. Stopping Lexapro certainly makes sense as a starting point.
I get the impression that boredom and family problems are among your main problems PJ, neither of which can be solved by medication. Medication can only deal with so much.
Take care.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on December 28, 2011, at 18:20:06
In reply to Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2011, at 10:41:12
Posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2011, at 18:36:37
In reply to Re: Drug cocktails. » Phillipa, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 28, 2011, at 17:34:23
Ed other than the anxiety from so many docs giving me diagnosis that were incorrect I agree with you. I know you have always said that about the lexapro. Only reason took it was another poster kept telling me how good it was. Ha forgot to look in archieves. Was wondering if you thought higher doses of luvox after being on it so long might work? PJxx
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 29, 2011, at 13:04:30
In reply to Re: Drug cocktails. » ed_uk2010, posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2011, at 18:36:37
Hi PJ,
>Ed other than the anxiety from so many docs giving me diagnosis that were incorrect I agree with you.
What incorrect diagnosis have you been given? Psychiatric diagnosis tends to be vague at the best of times. You do seem to suffer from anxiety and obsessional problems, with some depressive symptoms - but not all the time.
>I know you have always said that about the lexapro.
It's not usual to take two SSRIs at once. I think Luvox on its own should be sufficient. When you stop Lexapro, you could increase Luvox slightly to make up for it. I think you should discuss with your doctor before making any more changes.
Posted by Lou PIlder on December 29, 2011, at 19:49:51
In reply to Re: Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by bleauberry on December 28, 2011, at 16:12:28
> Ok, so this is totally unscientific, but if I were to just think about all I've seen at patient drug rating sites, psychobabble, and people I know in my life, I think the statistics would break down to something similar to this:
>
> Remission.....10%
> Significant improvement....20%
> Quit....70%
>
> So in other words, through my eyes only, about 1 in 10 people is going to have a robust enduring remissioin. 2 more people are going to quite improved. The other 7 did not have encouraging experiences for varying reasons.
>
> The drugs do work. Just not at the rate the pharm companies and abstracts of trials would have us believe. Science is not an abstract....it is absolute, it is fact....but within the medical/pharm community science seems a bit perverted because what is being putting out as scientific fact is not fact at all. Not an outright lie either. Not accurate, for sure.bleau,
You wrote,[...science seems a bit..because what is being putting out as scientific fact is...].
Here is a video that I am requesting that you view.
Lou
To see this video;
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[The Truth About Antidepressants #1]
You will see a pic of Dr. Timothy Scott with books behind him...time is 7 min posted on Aug 22 2009
Then part 2 is also one that I would like for you to view.
Posted by Phillipa on December 29, 2011, at 20:20:52
In reply to Re: Drug cocktails. » Phillipa, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 29, 2011, at 13:04:30
Ed he said also unusual two ssri's but didn't take the lexapro I know crazy low dose last night. But could that be why I feel so horrible and wacked out today? He said no med changes till see next time middle January. Love PJxx
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 30, 2011, at 17:39:59
In reply to Re: Drug cocktails. » ed_uk2010, posted by Phillipa on December 29, 2011, at 20:20:52
>didn't take the lexapro I know crazy low dose last night. But could that be why I feel so horrible and wacked out today?
I think it would take longer than that for you to notice a difference, if indeed there is a difference. Lexapro hasn't even left your system yet PJ! I think there are other reasons why you are feeling bad right now. There is also a negative psychological effect because you are worried about the effects of not taking the Lexapro.
Posted by Phillipa on December 30, 2011, at 20:37:50
In reply to Re: Drug cocktails., posted by ed_uk2010 on December 30, 2011, at 17:39:59
Ed in this instance have to say no wasn't worried about not taking it as have not taken it before and never bothered me at all. But I made a mistake posted 2.5mg for last night and it was 5mg so maybe the raise in dose made a difference? I will take 5mg for awhile and see if it makes a difference. Love PJx
Posted by poser938 on December 31, 2011, at 0:42:35
In reply to Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2011, at 10:41:12
one thing for sure is that any drug companies first priority is to make money... not to actually help people.
Posted by SLS on December 31, 2011, at 5:53:03
In reply to Re: Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by poser938 on December 31, 2011, at 0:42:35
> one thing for sure is that any drug companies first priority is to make money... not to actually help people.
Forest Labs might be an exception. I believe the president has family members who have mental illness, and is dedicated to developing new psychotropic drugs.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 31, 2011, at 5:54:20
In reply to Re: Drug cocktails. » ed_uk2010, posted by Phillipa on December 30, 2011, at 20:37:50
> Ed in this instance have to say no wasn't worried about not taking it as have not taken it before and never bothered me at all. But I made a mistake posted 2.5mg for last night and it was 5mg so maybe the raise in dose made a difference? I will take 5mg for awhile and see if it makes a difference. Love PJx
Good for you to commit to making a change in treatment and having the discipline to give it a fair trial.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on December 31, 2011, at 11:35:13
In reply to Re: Do any meds work or a fallacy for big pharm?, posted by poser938 on December 31, 2011, at 0:42:35
> one thing for sure is that any drug companies first priority is to make money... not to actually help people.
Well, different people within the companies might have different arrangement of priorities. But isn't it conceivable that their overall goal is to make money by providing pharmaceuticals that are helpful to people?
Many leaders feel as strongly about providing a good service (sometimes also at a reasonable cost, sometimes not) as they do about making indecent amounts of money. And sometimes they go hand in hand. My husband and I thoroughly enjoy the recent Dominos commercials and they've sparked interesting dinnertime conversations.
Making money isn't a bad thing. It takes money to fund research, give a decent return to people so they will invest in corporate ownership, and attract good personnel.
They definitely are not charities, though. And I suppose they do have strong motivations for hiding problems in their products and maximizing the positives.
Probably more intense scrutiny needs to be paid to their studies, and I would be in favor of the FDA requiring studies be performed by independent testers who are not informed of the maker of the product being tested.
In fact, that seems like a reasonable and achievable goal to press our government for. An independent group of testers licensed by the government and held to certain standards in product testing. And who are given products to test without being informed of the manufacturer, and with no communication being allowed between tester and manufacturer.
Posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2011, at 18:59:20
In reply to Re: Drug cocktails. » Phillipa, posted by SLS on December 31, 2011, at 5:54:20
Thanks Scott. I guess it takes while for the effect to last or I have l day blips!!!! Phillipa
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