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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Conundrum on July 3, 2010, at 13:07:21
In reply to Re: what antidepressant works strong on dopamine?, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 3, 2010, at 12:24:10
> thanks. I didnt know Zyprexa could increase dopamine levels.
>
>probably only at lower doses I would think, since higher doses would start to block dopaminergic receptors.
This thread is getting me interested in Mirapex. I thought of it before, but had heard people fall asleep all of a sudden after it stops working. I have all the same problems as the 2nd poster. Anhedonia, low motivation, poor memory.
Posted by Conundrum on July 3, 2010, at 14:37:56
In reply to Re: what antidepressant works strong on dopamine?, posted by bleauberry on July 3, 2010, at 4:46:28
> None.
>
> Some have indirect effects on dopamine, secondary to their more potent action on other things. Desipramine, wellbutrin, savella, TCAs in general. While they do impact dopamine, they do so weakly. Zoloft has some dopamine reuptake, but is miniscule compared to its serotonin reuptake. Prozac does not have dopamine reuptake, but increases dopamine levels, especially pronounced when combined with zyprexa.
>
> Ritalin. Possibly modafinil. Those are stronger on dopamine than any antidepressant. The MAOIs should be considered too.
>
Posted by inanimate peanut on July 3, 2010, at 15:28:32
In reply to Re: what antidepressant works strong on dopamine? » rjlockhart04-08, posted by Conundrum on July 3, 2010, at 13:07:21
yeah, mirapex is the only thing I've found that helps even a little with those problems. When I first took it, the treatment of anhedonia manifested as an addiction to Farmville- lol. At the max dose of 4.5mg it helps quite a bit. The other day on 4.5mg I did the dishes, laundry, took out the trash, and changed the cat litter which is more than I've done in one day for months. If you either don't care about or it doesn't cause the urge to binge for you, it's a good drug. I haven't had any other side effects. They do say to start low and go up slow to avoid nausea, but i went up pretty quickly and never had any trouble. I think I started on .5 and then went up by .5 each week to 1.5mg. I would definitely encourage you to try it, and I would love to hear about how it works for you if you do.
Posted by weatherfreak on July 4, 2010, at 0:47:18
In reply to what antidepressant works strong on dopamine?, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 2, 2010, at 19:00:05
(Requip) Ropinirole had a major unexpected AD effect as it was prescribed for RLS, another DA like Mirapex
Modafinil was great too, another unexpected MAJOR AD effect. Prescribed for EDS from OSA and shift work.
(Edronax) Reboxetine, is a NE, DA only antidepressant, if you're in the US (Strattera) is the similar US equal to Edronax but it's used for ADHD. I have not tried Strattera but Edronax worked very, very well for me while it lasted and very quickly. That was prescribed for depression only. Look into Strattera it might be really good for you.
After that pooped out for depression I suggested Ritalin to my GP as it was good for DA. I seem to respond very well to DA's. It worked miracles for depression. I am on a very low dose and some days I don't need any. Some days I can get by on 2.5mg once or twice a day, some days I need 10mg at breakfast and another 10mg at lunch. Then it gets tricky for me, if I go any higher, I either get very sleepy or very jittery so I think I'll have to ditch it because I never know which way it's going to go.
Now that Ritalin has pooped out at the moment, I'm trying Mirtazapine which is awful for me so far.
Good luck trying to find something for you that works.
Posted by Conundrum on July 4, 2010, at 0:52:36
In reply to mirapex » Conundrum, posted by inanimate peanut on July 3, 2010, at 15:28:32
Thanks I will take a look into trying that if mirtazapine doesn't pan out to help with those symptoms. Actually my anhedonia isn't as crippling as you've described. I can get some things done, not as much as I need to be doing, but I really have to force myself and get no feeling of reward or enjoyment knowing I'm doing hard work, if that makes any sense. I think norepinephrine is important to increase for anhedonia as well as dopamine.
Posted by linkadge on July 4, 2010, at 12:18:03
In reply to Re: mirapex » inanimate peanut, posted by Conundrum on July 4, 2010, at 0:52:36
For me, using an SSRI seems to prevent tollerance (to some extent) to the ritalin. Actually, I have been using chlorpheniramine which is an antihistamine with affinity for the serotonin transporter.
The problem is when I use the long acting SSRI's I get dysphoria. Chlorpheniramine is relatively short acting, and has effects on depression itself in animal models.
I take 1-2mg in the evenining which helps sleep, with little/no hangover. It also seems to help keep the ritalin working the next day.
Chlorpheniramine has some muscarinic antagonism which could (theoretically) augment the dopaminergic effect of the ritalin.
Linkadge
Posted by Brainbeard on July 5, 2010, at 4:34:39
In reply to Re: mirapex, posted by linkadge on July 4, 2010, at 12:18:03
Mirapex and all other synthetic dopamine agonists, except Servier's Trivastal (piribedil), can cause sudden sleep attacks, even while driving a car - you can check the case reports on Pubmed. I regard this as a serious drawback. Mirapex has also been associated with hypersexuality and obsessive gambling.
The ergot-derived dopamine agonists, like cabergoline, all carry the risk of heart valve damage, except for lisuride.
If you're looking for a truly, seriously dopaminergic med, you're looking for an amphetamine.
Posted by Conundrum on July 5, 2010, at 8:29:30
In reply to Re: mirapex, posted by Brainbeard on July 5, 2010, at 4:34:39
I know your not the first one to mention amphetamine, I think Rjlockhart did as well. (hope i remembered is username right). However it causes more release of norepinephrine and serotonin, so its hard to get a subjective idea of what you are actually feeling when you take an amphetamine. I think ritalin would be a closer bet, since it binds more to dopamine than norepinephrine reuptake sites, which is the opposite of amphetamines and doesn't inhibit the uptake of serotonin.
I know that ritalin binds more to the dopamine transporter than dextroamphetamine, but I'm sure amphetamines RELEASE more of both catecholamines.
I mean if you really wanna get the definitive dopaminergic drug you're gonna have to try amineptine. Its closest to pure dopamine reuptake inhibitor of which I am aware. It uses your own brains dopamine, so its not going to make you very compulsive like a agonist which acts more potently than the natural stuff. It has a long half life so its not as addictive as amphetamines and I belive it is dosed once a day. Also it doesn't block the D2 receptor like antipyschotics, so it shouldn't cause tardive symptoms. You could probably develop tics like with ritalin however.
Posted by linkadge on July 5, 2010, at 8:51:36
In reply to Re: mirapex » Brainbeard, posted by Conundrum on July 5, 2010, at 8:29:30
The amphetamines do release the catecholamines unlike ritalin, but they are also functional inhibitors of monoamine transporters. Don't they cause the tranporter to work in reverse or something, in essence preventing reuptake and enhancing release.
Linkadge
Posted by Brainbeard on July 5, 2010, at 13:14:36
In reply to Re: mirapex » Brainbeard, posted by Conundrum on July 5, 2010, at 8:29:30
Ritalin/methylphenidate has strong noradrenergic effects too.
I have used amineptine and it is a very, very subtle drug, at least in normal therapeutic doses. It doesn't have a long half-life; the half-life of the drug itself is less than an hour, and the half-life of the metabolites is about 2.5 hours. The effects on the brain probably last much longer.
Personally, I find dextro-amphetamine a much cleaner drug than Ritalin/methylphenidate.
Posted by Conundrum on July 5, 2010, at 20:24:59
In reply to Ritalin, Amineptine And Dextro-Amphetamine., posted by Brainbeard on July 5, 2010, at 13:14:36
> Ritalin/methylphenidate has strong noradrenergic effects too.
>
> I have used amineptine and it is a very, very subtle drug, at least in normal therapeutic doses. It doesn't have a long half-life; the half-life of the drug itself is less than an hour, and the half-life of the metabolites is about 2.5 hours. The effects on the brain probably last much longer.
>
> Personally, I find dextro-amphetamine a much cleaner drug than Ritalin/methylphenidate.
>
>
Could you explain what you mean by dextroamphetamine being cleaner than ritalin? It doesn't increase heart rate and cause palpitations as must as ritalin? Perhaps the increase in serotonin smooths it out a bit? The only thing ritalin ever did for me was make my heart beat faster and talk kind of fast at high doses. I wouldn't say it was a pleasant effect. Normal doses did less than the occasion cup of sumatra.I wonder if amphetamine working as a substrate on norepinephrine transporters causes the release of dopamine as well as norepinephrine?
Also could you describe more your experience with amineptine? What were its effects? If it were available would you keep taking it? Its interesting that you said it was subtle and yet it has been removed from world markets.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 5, 2010, at 21:37:52
In reply to Re: what antidepressant works strong on dopamine? » rjlockhart04-08, posted by Conundrum on July 3, 2010, at 13:07:21
thank you all for posting. ... i've got to go throug and read...
I will ask my doctor about Robextine.
Posted by Bob on July 5, 2010, at 22:54:26
In reply to Re: mirapex, posted by Brainbeard on July 5, 2010, at 4:34:39
> Mirapex and all other synthetic dopamine agonists, except Servier's Trivastal (piribedil), can cause sudden sleep attacks, even while driving a car - you can check the case reports on Pubmed. I regard this as a serious drawback. Mirapex has also been associated with hypersexuality and obsessive gambling.
>
> The ergot-derived dopamine agonists, like cabergoline, all carry the risk of heart valve damage, except for lisuride.
>
> If you're looking for a truly, seriously dopaminergic med, you're looking for an amphetamine.
Why is Trivastal the only one not asociated with sleep attacks?
Posted by Brainbeard on July 6, 2010, at 5:55:25
In reply to Re: mirapex » Brainbeard, posted by Bob on July 5, 2010, at 22:54:26
> Why is Trivastal the only one not asociated with sleep attacks?
>
>I don't know!
Posted by Brainbeard on July 6, 2010, at 9:08:07
In reply to Re: Ritalin, Amineptine And Dextro-Amphetamine. » Brainbeard, posted by Conundrum on July 5, 2010, at 20:24:59
>> Could you explain what you mean by dextroamphetamine being cleaner than ritalin?
It's a subjective experience. Ritalin gives me a kind of brain fog. It feels rough to my brain. Dextro-amphetamine doesn't.
Dextro-amphetamine only touches serotonin in higher doses, not in usual therapeutic doses.
Amineptine is hard to describe. It can produce very mild euphoria. Motivation, a bit of focus. It also increased my anxiety.
It was removed from the market since it can be 'abused' in high doses.
Posted by former poster on July 9, 2010, at 15:28:25
In reply to Re: Ritalin, Amineptine And Dextro-Amphetamine., posted by Brainbeard on July 6, 2010, at 9:08:07
It's sad that a life saving med like this is banned because of "potential for abuse".
Posted by ed_uk2010 on July 10, 2010, at 1:21:21
In reply to Is Amineptine still available anywhere? » Brainbeard, posted by former poster on July 9, 2010, at 15:28:25
> It's sad that a life saving med like this is banned because of "potential for abuse".
Thing is, it wasn't just that. There were reports of severe liver damage and other toxicity which contributed to the withdrawal of amineptine.
Posted by sigismund on July 10, 2010, at 3:47:24
In reply to Re: Is Amineptine still available anywhere? » former poster, posted by ed_uk2010 on July 10, 2010, at 1:21:21
>There were reports of severe liver damage and other toxicity which contributed to the withdrawal of amineptine.
I feel so much safer knowing that there are people up there looking out for me, especially since the euphoric effect was so subtle.
Like David Bowie wrote
'Drink to the men who protect you and I
Drink drink drink your glass raise your glass high
It's not the side effects of the cocaine....'
Posted by jade k on July 10, 2010, at 15:34:57
In reply to Re: Ritalin, Amineptine And Dextro-Amphetamine., posted by Brainbeard on July 6, 2010, at 9:08:07
Awesome combo! Anyone live to tell about it?
But really, has anyone had good result for MDD with amineptine? Where would one get it?
Has amineptine been augmented with Dex? Or would that be too much?
I am dopamine deficient at the moment, wondering if I have any options other than MAOI's.
Wellbutrin and such don't cut it. Can't take SSRI's etc.
Well thanks for any help!
~Jade
Posted by Conundrum on July 10, 2010, at 16:52:40
In reply to Re: Ritalin, Amineptine And Dextro-Amphetamine. » Brainbeard, posted by jade k on July 10, 2010, at 15:34:57
Amineptine vs. Desipramine
Can anyone who has taken both of these drugs explain the effects they had for them? I'll take experiences with reboxetine and even nortriptyline even though its not as selective as desipramine.
Since norepinephrine and dopamine are similarly related and the norepinephrine transporter is involved in the metabolism of dopamine in certain regions of the brain, I would think there would be some overlap in subjective experiences of NRIs and amineptine.
Posted by jade k on July 10, 2010, at 23:04:00
In reply to Amineptine vs. Desipramine, posted by Conundrum on July 10, 2010, at 16:52:40
> Amineptine vs. Desipramine
>
> Can anyone who has taken both of these drugs explain the effects they had for them? I'll take experiences with reboxetine and even nortriptyline even though its not as selective as desipramine.
>
> Since norepinephrine and dopamine are similarly related and the norepinephrine transporter is involved in the metabolism of dopamine in certain regions of the brain, I would think there would be some overlap in subjective experiences of NRIs and amineptine.Hi Conundrum,
I was thinking the same thing :-)
Now that I'm here, I was wondering if anyone came up with a good combo between the 3 dopamine meds we were discussing?
Amineptine, Ritalin, and Dexedrine I believe.For example, anything that could be combined with Amineptine? Btw-Is this similar to Wellbutrin?
Sorry to bother you..again..its just your wealth of knowledge. Its staggering. And thanks for the help, as always.
~Jade
Posted by Conundrum on July 10, 2010, at 23:13:49
In reply to Re: Amineptine vs. Desipramine, posted by jade k on July 10, 2010, at 23:04:00
Even if you procured amineptine, it is ridiculously expensive, so unless you are rich its not realistic for everyday use. It would be nice if it were available. I'm aware of people using ritalin and amphetamines together, not at the same time but one early in the day and another one later on.
Amineptine is probably nothing like wellbutrin. I've never tried amineptine, but wellbutrin is a weird drug and definitely does more than block the reuptake of norepinephrine and dopamine. I can't tolerate it, but I can tolerate ritalin which is a NDRI.
Posted by jade k on July 10, 2010, at 23:31:14
In reply to Re: Amineptine vs. Desipramine » jade k, posted by Conundrum on July 10, 2010, at 23:13:49
Nope, not rich, just lookin for something to WORK!
Wellbutrin never did anything for me, but I know its supposed to be dopaminergic, is that the right word? SSRI's and sarotonin are not my friends. I've only done well on Parnate, and the stims. Well, geuss my pdoc will have to earn his keep this week. (he's good actually).~Jade
Posted by Brainbeard on July 12, 2010, at 5:10:28
In reply to Re: Amineptine vs. Desipramine » Conundrum, posted by jade k on July 10, 2010, at 23:31:14
One way to potentiate dopaminergic drugs is to combine them with selegiline, the MAO-B inhibitor (at doses of 10mg or below), BUT this is very dangerous when you take too much of the dopaminergic add-on. Potentiation is estimated to be five-fold at least at the Bluelight forum. I've combined 10mg of selegiline with only 5mg of Ritalin and the boost lasted all day, but it was too jittery for my taste.
Posted by SLS on July 12, 2010, at 5:43:39
In reply to Potentiating Dopaminergic Drugs, posted by Brainbeard on July 12, 2010, at 5:10:28
> One way to potentiate dopaminergic drugs is to combine them with selegiline, the MAO-B inhibitor (at doses of 10mg or below), BUT this is very dangerous when you take too much of the dopaminergic add-on. Potentiation is estimated to be five-fold at least at the Bluelight forum. I've combined 10mg of selegiline with only 5mg of Ritalin and the boost lasted all day, but it was too jittery for my taste.
Do you ever allow your CNS to establish a homeostatic equilibrium by adhering to a single treatment regime for an extended period of time? The one time that I achieved remission, I did not see optimal results until I had been treated for 3 months.
- Scott
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