![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by Christ_empowered on June 10, 2010, at 21:00:01
In reply to Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 20:06:23
Lithium, depakote, and the antipsychotics (yes, even the new ones) have a reputation for making people feel terrible. This is why so many people end up being coerced or straight up forced to take them (in mental hospitals or through out-patient commitment. Or both). Maybe its a good thing you feel this way? Think about it: even if you stayed on Lithium (or risperdal, or some other drug that makes you feel crappy after a while), you'd probably keep the dose minimal. This would minimize side-effects, costs, and brain damage. Over time, you'd be healthier, physically and emotionally, then someone who either didn't feel that way OR who followed the doc's advice and "toughed it out."
Besides, you're not missing out on anything. Long-term use of Lithium tends to cause kidney damage and some patients end up with cognitive impairment...and the "crappy" feeling is common; many people spend years, even decades, in a chemical straight jacket b/c they're afraid of another "episode."
If you can manage without drugs, especially the heavy stuff, by all means: do it.
Posted by Phillipa on June 10, 2010, at 21:24:32
In reply to might be considered a 'healthy' response, posted by Christ_empowered on June 10, 2010, at 21:00:01
I thought lithium was neuroprotective? Phillipa
Posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 22:07:23
In reply to Re: might be considered a 'healthy' response » Christ_empowered, posted by Phillipa on June 10, 2010, at 21:24:32
I have heard that lithium was neuroprotective too. Then I found an article to exactly the contrary. Seems that is the way published info has been lately.
Posted by Phillipa on June 10, 2010, at 22:14:26
In reply to Re: might be considered a 'healthy' response, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 22:07:23
Calls for a google search. Phillipa
Posted by stargazer2 on June 10, 2010, at 23:11:14
In reply to Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 20:06:23
What dose are you on, perhaps it is too high...it can be a very good med for certain indications...I just started it and it has worked wonders for severe, suicidal depressive thoughts. You just have to make sure the dose doesn't make you a zombie.
YOu may only need 300 mg, not the higher doses they sometimes push you up to. I started on 600 and went to 900, I have to watch and cut back if I become catatonic...that would not be good for a long term result.. Star
Posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 23:47:43
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by stargazer2 on June 10, 2010, at 23:11:14
I'm not on it anymore. I could only take it for a few weeks. Years ago my mother went on Lithium. She never seemed like the same person since.
Posted by floatingbridge on June 10, 2010, at 23:52:08
In reply to Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 20:06:23
I had heard that at low doses it is neurogenic--150, 300, maybe 600. At high doses it can become toxic. Can also affect thyroid. These are tough personal choices we have to make....
Posted by violette on June 11, 2010, at 2:17:58
In reply to Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 20:06:23
I know someone who takes Wellbutrin (450 mg) with Lithium, and the combo works great. Have you tried augmentation with an additional medication before?
Posted by Dan_MI on June 11, 2010, at 6:10:26
In reply to Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 20:06:23
I also think a good response to lithium is genetic.
Posted by bleauberry on June 11, 2010, at 17:38:33
In reply to Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 20:06:23
Maybe the dose was too high. I take criticism for it, and that's ok, in my beliefs that meds are overdosed right from the start. I think all meds should be started extremely low with no predetermined target in mind. Let the journey guide the dosage, rather than vica versa.
According to Dr Gillman, he stopped using lithium because he got such lousy results from it after using on patients for years. If anything, it is only good when combined with meds that are primarily noradrenergic, because lithium itself is mostly within the serotonergic spectrum.
Who knows.
In my book, if a med makes you feel worse or dysphoric, ditch it. My opinion only.
I was talking with my visiting mother last week and she said she has several friends with bipolar problems who after many years of numbing meds have carefully weaned themselves off in order to live life for what it is, and to manage the symptoms and cycles rather than drug them. They can feel when a phase is coming on, they know when it is happening, and they have each found in their journeys the best ways to get through them. In all cases, it meant getting busy doing something...walking, arts, music, hiking, anything.
I'm the same way. Life is hard without meds but sucks worse with them. The only meds that actually help me feel better are ones that fight disease, not ones used in psychiatry. A small handful of psych meds do bring me a temporary stepping stone when I need them, but they are not for regular use. Disease fighting is where it's at. For me.
I take criticism when I state my beliefs that bipolar and depression have an underlying physically identifiable disease cause, but I truly believe and have seen it proved enough to have no doubt. The problem is, most GPs and pdocs are totally out of the loop on that stuff.
Lithium is generally blunting at therapeutic doses, so no surprise there. I have heard, and experienced it myself, that it is more antidepressant and even activating at very low doses. So I guess if your doctor is set on lithium, try that. 75mg, 150mg, 300mg max.
Posted by former poster on June 12, 2010, at 3:46:25
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by Dan_MI on June 11, 2010, at 6:10:26
Thanks for all the comments. I feel better knowing I'm not the only one that doesn't like Lithium. Trileptal sounds like a good choice. Does it have a dose threshold like lithium? Can it help at minuscule doses?
Posted by former poster on June 12, 2010, at 3:55:20
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful? » former poster, posted by violette on June 11, 2010, at 2:17:58
Thank you Violette for asking if I have tried combining Lithium and Wellbutrin. I have only tried taking Lithium with Cymbalta 60mg a day and Klonopin 3mg a day. Still seemed to give that "personality washing" feeling.
Posted by Phillipa on June 12, 2010, at 20:23:18
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 12, 2010, at 3:55:20
At one time I was on 150mg of trileptal. That's a very low dose. At the time didn't have the money to increase to 300mg. It's sure worth a try with your doc's permission. Phillipa
Posted by former poster on June 12, 2010, at 23:19:40
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful? » former poster, posted by Phillipa on June 12, 2010, at 20:23:18
Here is a interesting comment that Wikipedia says about about Trileptal:
In treatment of epilepsy, oxcarbazepine has recently been found to be associated with a greater enhancement in mood and reduction in anxiety symptoms than other drugs employed to treat epilepsy.
Phillipa.. Did you happen to notice if anxiety was reduced and mood improved? Sounds worth looking into!
Posted by morganator on June 13, 2010, at 12:57:05
In reply to Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 20:06:23
What about trying an AD like Lexapro or Zoloft?
Then there is always SJW(brand matters)
Also, do you take fish oil and exercise regularly?
What is your diet like?
Posted by Phillipa on June 13, 2010, at 19:39:55
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 12, 2010, at 23:19:40
Truthfully I didn't notice a think but 150 is such a baby dose. Phillipa
Posted by former poster on June 14, 2010, at 7:29:25
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 13, 2010, at 12:57:05
I'm afraid to take Zoloft because of the sexual side effects. This is a big issue for me since I turned 50. Every SSRI, SNRI causes severe ED that lasts for many weeks after discontinuation. I take "Adapton" (blue ling fish oil), Krill Oil, Sam-e, I ride my mountain bike 20 miles every other day, swim a mile. I start the day with a cup of green tea, raw honey and bee pollen, one ounce of goji juice. I'm taking so many supplements I can't even list them all. But one I have never tried is SJW. What brand do you recommend?
Posted by morganator on June 14, 2010, at 15:10:18
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 14, 2010, at 7:29:25
SJW- New Chapter's SC27 or Serofin, Kira, and Perika.
Well it sounds like your doing a lot of good things for yourself. I would also consider trying interval sprint training and Bikram Yoga as other options for optimizing physical health and hopefully translating to better more consistent positive mood. Another thing to consider is a long meditative stretch after any physical activity.
I don't blame you for not wanting to try Zoloft given your past experiences with SSRIs. There is a chance it may not impact you in the same way the others did. It may be worth a try. Some have reported increase libido on Zoloft at 100 mg or more. This may be due to the small amount of dopamine reuptake inhibition that may begin after 100 mg.
I would definitely give a good SJW brand a go. One problem is you may have to wear sunglasses during the day-mainly sunny days- to protect yourself from any phytoxicity. And, there is always the possibility that SJW will impact your libido the same way SSRIs and other antidepressants do.
I take tons of supplements too. Have you ever tried taking ginger, cayenne, and ginkgo biloba for sexual function? These may help with issues you encounter when taking antidepressants.
Good luck,
Morgan
Posted by morganator on June 14, 2010, at 15:16:46
In reply to Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 20:06:23
Have you ever tried a very low dose of lithium? Say 150 mg once in the morning and once in the evening?
What about lithium orotate or aspartate? These are the "supplement" versions of lithium. They may not be as potent but they may still help with mood.
Posted by former poster on June 15, 2010, at 0:15:05
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 14, 2010, at 15:16:46
> Have you ever tried a very low dose of lithium? Say 150 mg once in the morning and once in the evening?
>
> What about lithium orotate or aspartate? These are the "supplement" versions of lithium. They may not be as potent but they may still help with mood.Thank you for asking. Yes I have tried Lithium Orotate and it does produce the exact same blunting feeling. Even at minuscule doses. It feels like it takes away the ability to feel pleasure. The more Lithium I take the less pleasure and motivation I feel. Have I been in a state of mania since i was born? What is wrong with me?
Posted by former poster on June 15, 2010, at 0:28:51
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 14, 2010, at 15:10:18
I didnt know ginger and cayenne were helpful for those reasons. I will definitely give them a try. I do however take Ginko every day. I recently started taking Acetyl L-Carnitine / Alpha Lipoic acid combo that has made a big difference. I will try St. Johns wort soon. Thank you for your post
Posted by morganator on June 15, 2010, at 9:32:42
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 15, 2010, at 0:15:05
> > Have you ever tried a very low dose of lithium? Say 150 mg once in the morning and once in the evening?
> >
> > What about lithium orotate or aspartate? These are the "supplement" versions of lithium. They may not be as potent but they may still help with mood.
>
> Thank you for asking. Yes I have tried Lithium Orotate and it does produce the exact same blunting feeling. Even at minuscule doses. It feels like it takes away the ability to feel pleasure. The more Lithium I take the less pleasure and motivation I feel. Have I been in a state of mania since i was born? What is wrong with me?Maybe you have been on the manic side most of your life. Early stress and lack of proper nurture where probably contributing factors that triggered some of your manic symptoms(you were predisposed and it didn't take much to trigger your bipolar genes.)
What about a low dose of Depakote? I'm sure you've already tried it.
You could also try upping your fish oil intake. I just recently more than doubled mine and I really think I already feel better. I also take 40 mg fluoxetine(probably going to change or add a small dose of Nortriptyline to), 450 to 600 mg Lithium(starting 600 mg this week to see how I feel), and one 270 mg gel cap of New Chapter's SC27.
Remember, If you try one of the SJW brands, you will have to give it some time and you may feel side effects at first. If you feel a bit agitated or more anxiety at first try to tough it out and wait at least a month before switching to another brand. You may have to try all 3 brands before you find the right one. I've also heard that vitamin shoppe has a good quality extract. I know it sucks that we have to go through SJW trials like going through SSRI trials. Hopefully after a month or so of trying the first SJW brand you choose you will feel good enough to want to stick with it. It may actually take up to 2 months so try to be patient. If you try SC27, you probably will not need to go any higher than one gel cap. It is a pretty powerful brand. One good thing about it is that it has a low concentration of hypericin in it, the part of SJW responsible for phytotoxicity.
Posted by former poster on June 15, 2010, at 17:11:24
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 15, 2010, at 9:32:42
Maybe you have been on the manic side most of your life. Early stress and lack of proper nurture where probably contributing factors that triggered some of your manic symptoms(you were predisposed and it didn't take much to trigger your bipolar genes.)
You guessed right about the early stress and lack of proper nurturing. This is very disturbing. I'm in my 50's and have never been normal? Maybe its better just to live out the rest of my life this way? How long would I have to take Lithium or a mood stabilizer before I would feel good?
I read somewhere that the IQ of patients dropped significantly after starting mood stabilizers. This is also disturbing.
Posted by morganator on June 15, 2010, at 23:20:14
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 15, 2010, at 17:11:24
> Maybe you have been on the manic side most of your life. Early stress and lack of proper nurture where probably contributing factors that triggered some of your manic symptoms(you were predisposed and it didn't take much to trigger your bipolar genes.)
>
> You guessed right about the early stress and lack of proper nurturing. This is very disturbing. I'm in my 50's and have never been normal? Maybe its better just to live out the rest of my life this way? How long would I have to take Lithium or a mood stabilizer before I would feel good?
>
> I read somewhere that the IQ of patients dropped significantly after starting mood stabilizers. This is also disturbing.I've only had periods where I was somewhat normal. It sucks for sure. I think the combination of therapy and the right medication is the best we can do for ourselves. I don't think your I.Q. will drop from a low dose of lithium. You can't take it anyway since you are so sensitive to it. If anything, the stress, trauma, and bipolar episodes could all possibly contribute to lowering I.Q.
Posted by former poster on June 18, 2010, at 7:20:24
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 15, 2010, at 23:20:14
Everyone considering starting Lithium should check out this website:
http://www.sntp.net/drugs/lithium_breggin.htm
I don't mean to contradict you. I'm happy that Lithium works for you, but this paragraph describes how I felt while on Lithium:
The subjective experience was primarily one of indifference and slight general malaise. This led to a certain passivity. The subjects often had a feeling of being at a distance from their environment, as if separated from it by a glass wall.... Intellectual initiative was diminished, and there was a feeling of lowered ability to concentrate and memorize.... The assessment of time was often impaired; it was difficult to decide whether an event had taken place recently or some time ago. (Pp. 715-16)(4)
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.