![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by StillHopefull on May 17, 2010, at 19:40:48
Well, you have all read my post regarding my long time battle with depression and finally getting all those drugs out of my system. And I thank you for the information and support.
Now it comes down to this decision. I think I need to take meds. And just that thought depresses me. But I can't go on like this. The apathy, the guilt, having to force myself out of bed just to do the bare minimum.
I look back and can remember a better way to live. Yes I was medicated, but I was functioning. And yes, going through the med trials and the side effects, and the weeks of feeling terrible while giving the meds enough time to work... All terribly depressing.
But I remember being able to go to work, and fixing a meal for my family at night, and working on my little projects, and actually enjoying the accomplishment. That's what I want back.
So even if the meds only work for 2 or 3 years and then I have to go through this whole thing again, aren't those 2 or 3 good years are worth it? I think they are.
I know I became severely depressed when my meds pooped out this past September. I just thought I would see what happened without meds in my system. Well, now I know. I have been completely drug free for 3 three full months and I continue to feel like dog poop. How much longer do I give it?
And where do I go from here? How do I find a good pdoc? I moved from Texas to Seattle and I don't even know where to start looking. My old pdoc in Texas recommended someone up here, and I went to him for awhile. Then as my meds pooped out and the depression grabbed hold of me, I missed two appointments. And the new doc fired me! Can you believe it? He actually sent me a letter saying he couldn't be my doctor anymore. I do feel bad for missing the appointments. I called after missing the first one and rescheduled - but then I missed that one too. In 20 years I've only had 3 pdocs - the first one retired, the second one was super but I moved across the county, and the third one fires me. And this was the only time in 20 years I've missed an appointment.
So now that I'm resigned to go back on the meds, I need to find an expert in the Seattle area. Can anyone refer me to a good pdoc, or even a resource to help me find one on my own?
And any insight on my battle with the depression would be greatly appreciated too.
Thanks!
Posted by Phillipa on May 17, 2010, at 21:23:22
In reply to Back on the meds? Now that's REALLY depressing..., posted by StillHopefull on May 17, 2010, at 19:40:48
Well you tried but the important thing is that your're ready to get better again. Good luck. Think some posters from that area on here. You might also try goggling Seattle pdocs? You just never know? Phillipa
Posted by chujoe on May 18, 2010, at 7:21:43
In reply to Re: Back on the meds? Now that's REALLY depressing... » StillHopefull, posted by Phillipa on May 17, 2010, at 21:23:22
Dear Still, I no longer live in Seattle, but the place is chock full of hospitals. Pretty good healthcare scene, so start with the yellowpages, or call the city/county office of mental health -- I bet they have a list of providers.
Also, I think you showed courage in finding out how you'd do without meds, but I don't think that implies either cowardice or failure if you go back on. I mean, I've been taking blood pressure meds for 20 years & I don't feel guilty about it. In fact, I hardly think about it. And come to think of it, my GP had to try out several meds before we found one we were satisfied with. It's a drag, and worse with psych meds because the influence consciousness, but it's not any different in principle. I'm happy that I live in a time when my blood pressure and my anxiety can be treated with medication -- I'd probably be dead by now without these drugs.
Posted by SLS on May 18, 2010, at 8:01:14
In reply to Re: Back on the meds? Now that's REALLY depressing..., posted by chujoe on May 18, 2010, at 7:21:43
> Dear Still, I no longer live in Seattle, but the place is chock full of hospitals. Pretty good healthcare scene, so start with the yellowpages, or call the city/county office of mental health -- I bet they have a list of providers.
>
> Also, I think you showed courage in finding out how you'd do without meds, but I don't think that implies either cowardice or failure if you go back on. I mean, I've been taking blood pressure meds for 20 years & I don't feel guilty about it. In fact, I hardly think about it. And come to think of it, my GP had to try out several meds before we found one we were satisfied with. It's a drag, and worse with psych meds because the influence consciousness, but it's not any different in principle. I'm happy that I live in a time when my blood pressure and my anxiety can be treated with medication -- I'd probably be dead by now without these drugs.
Sage advice.I think that the more you recognize, understand, and accept the fact that you have a biological illness, the less you will blame yourself for treating it properly.
- Scott
Posted by hansi555 on May 18, 2010, at 10:22:03
In reply to Back on the meds? Now that's REALLY depressing..., posted by StillHopefull on May 17, 2010, at 19:40:48
> Well, you have all read my post regarding my long time battle with depression and finally getting all those drugs out of my system. And I thank you for the information and support.
>
> Now it comes down to this decision. I think I need to take meds. And just that thought depresses me. But I can't go on like this. The apathy, the guilt, having to force myself out of bed just to do the bare minimum.>
> And any insight on my battle with the depression would be greatly appreciated too.
>
> Thanks!Well, I am really sorry to hear your problems without meds. Wondering if anybody ever come out of it and back to a normal life without drugs.
I am considering also dropping meds but that is more because I dont think they work that well for me - still get a lot of dull days w crying, feeling sad etc. And this was not a major but a moderate depression that occured AFTER 14 days on Remeron taken because of insomnia.
Also because it its a uni-polar depression that according to most docs should be over by now (2,5 years after it came).
I am now trying to investigate if my lifestyle (job, family, projects) is too busy and therefore causing these bad periods.
I sometimes find it hard to believe that my symptoms are caused by being busy as all other things in my life are good.What type of illness are you taking meds for? What caused it?
BR
Hansi
Posted by StillHopefull on May 18, 2010, at 12:43:44
In reply to Re: Back on the meds? Now that's REALLY depressing..., posted by hansi555 on May 18, 2010, at 10:22:03
Thinking back on my history - so many drugs for so many years. Diagnosis Major Depression.
In reviewing my feelings and behavior over the past 20 years, I think the very sickest I've been is during medication poop-out. It is such a subtle thing that creeps up me. I'm not even aware of it until someone or something brings it to my attention. Usually it comes to me as I am preparing for a doctor appointment/med check. I start examining my behavior and realize I'm not living up to my expectations, not performing up to my usual level, being lazy, blah, blah, blah. Then I feel guilty, and that makes me feel bad and sad.In all honesty it it my behavior, more than how I feel, that clue me in that I'm depressed again. And how weird that I don't notice right away... Like I'll start skipping showers and just wash the "stinky parts" with a washcloth. I won't feel like going to work so I just call in sick. Housework will fall behind, same with bill paying. I'll quit working on projects and hobbies, or start something and just never finish. And I would lie about these things. Admitting this really makes me feel sad. And I am realizing that I never behaved like this BEFORE I started on these meds. Only after, and only during poop-out. What does that mean?
So reminding myself of these past behavior patterns, I ask myself this: Where does my current condition rate in comparison to my condition in the past? Well it varies day to day, but I am not at the lowest I have ever been. 3 weeks ago I was crying all day. I don't feel like crying now. So that's improvement. Maybe the neurofeedback is helping (see my post on the Alternative Board).
I've come this far. And its been a hard road. There are no easy answers and no quick fixes. Yesterday I felt like starting the meds again. Today I don't. So that's another improvement.
Looking back to 1989 when I started this journey, I don't believe I really had a severe major depression. I had been through a terrible personal tragedy, I wanted to quit smoking pot, and Dr. Feelgood was right there with his rX pad.I have filled my brain with so much information over the past 3 weeks - so many differing opinions. And the information on www.madinamerica.com was just horrific! But I don't see anything about whether someone can recover and come out of this.
After 3 months of being completely drug free, is it possible that my brain is still feeling the effects of all those drugs? Should I give it more time? I know in the treatment of mental illness, it takes an enormous amount of time to know for sure if any treatment is going to work or not. Doesn't it usually require a trial of 3 to 6 months to know for sure if a med is working? Doesn't it take that long to adjust to the initial side effects? Perhaps I need to be a little more patient and give this drug-free thing more time.
All feedback, comments, etc. is much appreciated! Thanks!
Posted by manic666 on May 18, 2010, at 12:57:19
In reply to I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it?, posted by StillHopefull on May 18, 2010, at 12:43:44
you lost your safety blanket///thats what meds are. Once you have been in med land , nothing is the same after//there,s this constant nagging feeling you were better off on them//an when on you think i was better off without//you were on them a long time, your world changed the minute you took the first tablet// if you carnt function then you carnt//you need your meds //no disgrace just get some peace back in your life
Posted by chujoe on May 18, 2010, at 14:03:35
In reply to I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it?, posted by StillHopefull on May 18, 2010, at 12:43:44
I don't have a lot of experience going on and off -- just one cycle on and off, then a long time, then on again. That long time between meds was a gray zone: I was functioning, but I wasn't FUNCTIONING, if you know what I mean. Still, three months is not that long to be off -- you might decide to wait another month or two, though if you feel really crappy you ought to go back on.
Like you, when I was younger I smoked a lot of pot. I also took a lot of other things that I haven't touched for years. I feel certain that some of those drugs rewired my brain -- sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way.
Posted by hansi555 on May 19, 2010, at 15:16:18
In reply to I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it?, posted by StillHopefull on May 18, 2010, at 12:43:44
Well, Stillhopefull, I am seriously considering to stop the meds. I hope you stay the course set without ADs - would like to hear if it turns out to the better or worse.
If only I could say I had a constant relief with the ADs but I dont - I feel I could do the same, slightly better, or worse without the ADs.
But I have a good job, super family in a nice house and sorroundings, hope I could keep those things still...
Posted by manic666 on May 20, 2010, at 3:04:36
In reply to Re: I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it? » StillHopefull, posted by hansi555 on May 19, 2010, at 15:16:18
when younger i would take no meds //an costantly warned by my doctors ,that something will happen///i chose to go my own way ,will a little ativan for emergencies///but AD,S no way/who me? im the main man/ not some wimp who needs help like those nuts you see in hospitals//to cut it short, i finished up one of the nuts in the hospital//there is a lot of blanks in my life which are filled in by friends an stranger,s about my mad cool aratic acts of time past an present///i dont want to be the nut with no meds that makes a bigger prat than i already do with meds/as you get older its not cool//by all meen,s give it a go i did afew none med trails when i felt i was ok //but boy do you come back with a bang//an that loverly med that had stablized you dont work now//so you get on the ad ferris wheel//if you feel cool i just lower the med to a low dose //an when not ,up the dose//that way staying in touch with the world..stay safe
Posted by Dan_MI on May 20, 2010, at 9:12:07
In reply to Back on the meds? Now that's REALLY depressing..., posted by StillHopefull on May 17, 2010, at 19:40:48
Patricia Spach, Country Doctor Community Clinic on 19th Ave E. & Republican St.
> Well, you have all read my post regarding my long time battle with depression and finally getting all those drugs out of my system. And I thank you for the information and support.
>
> Now it comes down to this decision. I think I need to take meds. And just that thought depresses me. But I can't go on like this. The apathy, the guilt, having to force myself out of bed just to do the bare minimum.
>
> I look back and can remember a better way to live. Yes I was medicated, but I was functioning. And yes, going through the med trials and the side effects, and the weeks of feeling terrible while giving the meds enough time to work... All terribly depressing.
>
> But I remember being able to go to work, and fixing a meal for my family at night, and working on my little projects, and actually enjoying the accomplishment. That's what I want back.
>
> So even if the meds only work for 2 or 3 years and then I have to go through this whole thing again, aren't those 2 or 3 good years are worth it? I think they are.
>
> I know I became severely depressed when my meds pooped out this past September. I just thought I would see what happened without meds in my system. Well, now I know. I have been completely drug free for 3 three full months and I continue to feel like dog poop. How much longer do I give it?
>
> And where do I go from here? How do I find a good pdoc? I moved from Texas to Seattle and I don't even know where to start looking. My old pdoc in Texas recommended someone up here, and I went to him for awhile. Then as my meds pooped out and the depression grabbed hold of me, I missed two appointments. And the new doc fired me! Can you believe it? He actually sent me a letter saying he couldn't be my doctor anymore. I do feel bad for missing the appointments. I called after missing the first one and rescheduled - but then I missed that one too. In 20 years I've only had 3 pdocs - the first one retired, the second one was super but I moved across the county, and the third one fires me. And this was the only time in 20 years I've missed an appointment.
>
> So now that I'm resigned to go back on the meds, I need to find an expert in the Seattle area. Can anyone refer me to a good pdoc, or even a resource to help me find one on my own?
>
> And any insight on my battle with the depression would be greatly appreciated too.
>
> Thanks!
Posted by hansi555 on May 20, 2010, at 11:00:57
In reply to I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it?, posted by StillHopefull on May 18, 2010, at 12:43:44
I have decided to try without meds, starting late june/early july. And I will not make the "normal" approach of dragging out the tappering off over several months. I will do it rather quickly after trying the slow proces a year ago with no good result and also after talking with my psycologist who told me that the patients she knew trying the slow approach never succeeded - only some of the ones doing it quickly bared the suffering through and stayed off the meds.
Posted by StillHopefull on May 20, 2010, at 11:25:30
In reply to Re: I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it?, posted by hansi555 on May 20, 2010, at 11:00:57
Good luck - It isn't easy.
I know some people (maybe even me) need the meds to function and live. I just think that there are a lot of people that shouldn't have been on the meds in the first place. These meds are over-prescribed.
The problem is that once you've taken them, your brain is changed. And then you need the meds forever in order to feel "normal".
I have to believe that we can come back from the changes these meds have done to our brains.
Posted by StillHopefull on May 20, 2010, at 12:20:56
In reply to Re: I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it? » hansi555, posted by StillHopefull on May 20, 2010, at 11:25:30
It is very hard to find any information about successful recovery from psych meds. But I finally found some links:
http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/psychiatric-drugs/quitting
http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/
Posted by hansi555 on May 20, 2010, at 12:23:10
In reply to Re: I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it? » hansi555, posted by StillHopefull on May 20, 2010, at 11:25:30
> Good luck - It isn't easy.
>
> I know some people (maybe even me) need the meds to function and live. I just think that there are a lot of people that shouldn't have been on the meds in the first place. These meds are over-prescribed.
>
> The problem is that once you've taken them, your brain is changed. And then you need the meds forever in order to feel "normal".
>
> I have to believe that we can come back from the changes these meds have done to our brains.
>
Hope you are right. I just informed my work place about the decision today so if this is going to be too horrible I can stop working for a while.For how long did the (if any) psysical complications last?
Do you think you are going to stay off the drugs or are you going back on?
Posted by manic666 on May 20, 2010, at 12:49:21
In reply to Re: I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it?, posted by hansi555 on May 20, 2010, at 12:23:10
think vvvvvvvvvvvery carefully on this one//i would always take on anybody in a fight win or loose //but meds nnnnnnnnnnno 1// how many times have they saved you//2 what do you think you will achieve//3 is your family going to pick up the pieces again//4 will you loose your job///5 are you 100% sure, you have to be///6 do you see yourself back on them in the future///7 if yes why the hell do you want to do it//8 cut down so you cruise along if you can///an if you hit the rapid,s bring out the life raft
Posted by StillHopefull on May 20, 2010, at 12:56:28
In reply to Re: I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it?, posted by hansi555 on May 20, 2010, at 12:23:10
> For how long did the (if any) psysical complications last?
I felt terrible for weeks, but I was still able to go to work. I hated my job - perhaps if I had remained medicated I wouldn't have hated it so much. Eventually I quit my job. Withdrawing from the meds really had nothing to do with it. Three other managers besides me also quit at the same time.
Yes the physical complications were bad, but they went away. It's the mental complications that seem to go on and on and on and on...
> Do you think you are going to stay off the drugs or are you going back on?
I don't know what the future will bring. It would be nice to think that I could just take a pill and everything would be good. I know better though - I might have to go through weeks of trying one drug after another (or a drug combo) before I felt good again. But on the other hand, once you find something that works, you REALLY feel so much better...
But since I've come this far I think I'll stick it out a little longer. And I do seem to be feeling a little less depressed lately. At least I'm not crying all day, I'm getting out of bed and going to job interviews, and I'm able to fix dinner for the mister. Could it be the Neurofeedback is helping???
Posted by hansi555 on May 20, 2010, at 14:18:23
In reply to Re: I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it?, posted by manic666 on May 20, 2010, at 12:49:21
> think vvvvvvvvvvvery carefully on this one//i would always take on anybody in a fight win or loose //but meds nnnnnnnnnnno
1// how many times have they saved you//
Hard to say, if you have read my other posts, it has been a mixed pleasure on meds. I was "saved" by the side effects of Remeron - sleeping and eating a lot - but after 2 weeks I started feeling depressed - and mind you this was AFTER starting on meds
2 what do you think you will achieve//
As I am most properly in the group of people that should not have started on meds at all, I hope to get out of the meds. The longer I stay on meds the more difficult it will be to end it.
3 is your family going to pick up the pieces again//
Yes4 will you loose your job///
No - arrangements have been made - I live in Europe and it is more difficult to get rid of any employee. But everybody wants me to stay5 are you 100% sure, you have to be///
???6 do you see yourself back on them in the future///
If this trial fails, I guess so7 if yes why the hell do you want to do it//
I wouldnt end my life knowing that I didnt try - even if the odds are 0,1 %8 cut down so you cruise along if you can///an if you hit the rapid,s bring out the life raft
I will not drag it out...
Posted by hansi555 on May 20, 2010, at 14:21:58
In reply to Re: I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it? » hansi555, posted by StillHopefull on May 20, 2010, at 12:56:28
> > For how long did the (if any) psysical complications last?
>
> I felt terrible for weeks, but I was still able to go to work. I hated my job - perhaps if I had remained medicated I wouldn't have hated it so much. Eventually I quit my job. Withdrawing from the meds really had nothing to do with it. Three other managers besides me also quit at the same time.
>
> Yes the physical complications were bad, but they went away. It's the mental complications that seem to go on and on and on and on...
>
> > Do you think you are going to stay off the drugs or are you going back on?
>
> I don't know what the future will bring. It would be nice to think that I could just take a pill and everything would be good. I know better though - I might have to go through weeks of trying one drug after another (or a drug combo) before I felt good again. But on the other hand, once you find something that works, you REALLY feel so much better...
>
> But since I've come this far I think I'll stick it out a little longer. And I do seem to be feeling a little less depressed lately. At least I'm not crying all day, I'm getting out of bed and going to job interviews, and I'm able to fix dinner for the mister. Could it be the Neurofeedback is helping???Thank you for your update!
What is the Neurofeedback?
Posted by manic666 on May 20, 2010, at 14:23:34
In reply to Re: I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it? » manic666, posted by hansi555 on May 20, 2010, at 14:18:23
ok man/ go for it an good luck
Posted by hansi555 on May 20, 2010, at 15:42:35
In reply to Yes - we can come out of it!, posted by StillHopefull on May 20, 2010, at 12:20:56
> It is very hard to find any information about successful recovery from psych meds. But I finally found some links:
>
> http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/psychiatric-drugs/quitting
>
> http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/>;Thanks
Found this also:
How difficult is coming off psychiatric drugs?
In working with hundreds of people over many years, we have found there is no way to predict how the coming off process will go. There is really no way to know in advance who can and who cannot live without psychiatric drugs, who can live with fewer drugs or lower doses, or how hard it will be. Weve seen people withdraw successfully
after more than 20 years, and people need to continue to take them after being on for just a year. Because it is potentially possible for anyone, the only way to really know is to slowly and carefully try, and see how it goes. Everyone should have the right to explore this.
The study of coming off drugs by MIND, the leading mental health charity in the UK confirms our experience. MIND found that Length of time on the drug emerged as the factor that most clearly influenced
success in coming off. Four out of five people (81 per cent) who were on their drug for less than six months succeeded in coming off. In contrast, less than half (44 per cent) of people who were on their drug for more than five years succeeded. (Just over half of people who were on their drug for between six months and five years succeeded.)
Posted by manic666 on May 21, 2010, at 3:45:27
In reply to Re: I wonder too - does ANYONE ever come out of it?, posted by manic666 on May 20, 2010, at 14:23:34
you could have done that survey in your own brain//the shorter your on the esay it is to come off//not rocket science , MIND started out as an anti drug campain for kids//there motto was just say no//well that f*ck*r sood died a death//they are a charatiy . if you ring them an ask any question other than what time is it ///they dont no //the longer of course you have suffered brain changes so its harder//in my case wrong d tox an wrong meds took half my brain,an i didnt have much at the start//my meds now are just pluging the mistakes made on the joyest ride of a depressive//like a car they keep my running on reduced power //but stop,s the engine from nukeing
Posted by StillHopefull on May 21, 2010, at 10:25:05
In reply to Re: Yes - we can come out of it!, posted by hansi555 on May 20, 2010, at 15:42:35
hansi - go to the alternative board and search for neurofeedback to see my posts on that.
Feel free to send me babblemail if you like...
Posted by hansi555 on May 21, 2010, at 11:22:46
In reply to Neurofeedback » hansi555, posted by StillHopefull on May 21, 2010, at 10:25:05
Hi
Saw your progression on that treatment, interesting, are you still doing it?
What is a babble mail?
Posted by StillHopefull on May 21, 2010, at 12:05:53
In reply to Re: Neurofeedback » StillHopefull, posted by hansi555 on May 21, 2010, at 11:22:46
> Saw your progression on that treatment, interesting, are you still doing it?
Yep - still doing it. In fact I have a treatment this morning in about 1 hour.
> What is a babble mail?It is a way for us to email each other through psycho-babble without giving out our personal email addresses. You can change your settings to allow it. Just do a search for "babblemail" and you will find the instructions on how to set it up. When you get set up, send me a babblemail and I will respond.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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