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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by hansi555 on May 14, 2010, at 3:04:52
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by Polarbear206 on May 13, 2010, at 22:09:45
> Most likely an underlying bipolar spectrum. Plenty of red flags going up. Has your doctor mentioned this to you?? Please go to psycheducation.org This is an excellent site for education.
Thanks PB206 - will do this.
So you would reckon me Bipolar II? Dont know if the docs know this definition in Europe...?Anyhow, as stated previously, I am not manic - just swinging between normal and depressed.
Over these 2,5 years the cycles has become shorter (well apart from that 3 months period last autumn), happend already 6 months into the treatment.
Posted by Hombre on May 14, 2010, at 3:13:07
In reply to How long can this thing last?, posted by hansi555 on May 13, 2010, at 8:38:33
Don't beat yourself up. I know how it feels to want to scream, "I'm really a hard working person! I am not doing this to myself on purpose!!" and to have no seeming consistency in terms of days you feel ok and days when you are the walking dead. But the fact that meds sometimes work and sometimes don't leads me to ask:
Do you think you are getting the right nutrition so your body has all the raw materials, cofactors and other essential nutrients so the meds have something to work with? Although med regimes are rather stiff, individual nutrition is personal. I personally don't hold to the macho line, "just eat food. real food. you'll get all the vitamins you need..." blah blah. You already got your exercise going (good on ya for that) and you obviously care about getting well. Just hope nutrition isn't the weak link that is holding you back.
Posted by manic666 on May 14, 2010, at 3:14:02
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by hansi555 on May 14, 2010, at 2:58:14
there is no perfect set up in life //when you talk depression//ask britny spears an any person who thinks they had the pefect life//depression make you equal to any one on earth/ from rich or poor your still on the depression hit list
Posted by MrTook on May 14, 2010, at 10:18:11
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by hansi555 on May 14, 2010, at 2:58:14
CBT is just an acroynm for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. There is lots to read about it on the web.
Best Of Luck!
Posted by manic666 on May 14, 2010, at 13:12:05
In reply to How long can this thing last?, posted by hansi555 on May 13, 2010, at 8:38:33
if you are severly depressed you would not be able to hold down any job// let alone a managerial//if you are stressed you wont get well till you remove the stress//if your doc has no clue to your illness he should not prescibe meds for something he has no clue to//you may be good at your job ,but is your job good to you???????im great at construction an could make a fotune// but i carnt go back it would kill me,,no you limits is the key///cbt would not help in your case you have none of the issues it cover,s
Posted by hansi555 on May 14, 2010, at 14:05:31
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by manic666 on May 14, 2010, at 13:12:05
> if you are severly depressed you would not be able to hold down any job// let alone a managerial/
Well it comes in waves, my depressed periods are anyting from a couple of days up to 2-3 weeks.
I just get trough it and wait for a better period.
If it is severly, I dont know, my psyc says it originally was a moderate one, it is not as bad now, but hey, it is more than 2 years ago it first started.
All my stress symptoms have gone now, since 9 months ago - only the mood swings remain/if you are stressed you wont get well till you remove the stress//
Stressed or not - that is a good question...
if your doc has no clue to your illness he should not prescibe meds for something he has no clue to//
Well he is not the most skilled guy, he just hope to avoid to many problems, he is not talking much about recovery
you may be good at your job ,but is your job good to you???????
Point taken, I really enjoy and master it but it can be too much
im great at construction an could make a fotune// but i carnt go back it would kill me,,no you limits is the key///cbt would not help in your case you have none of the issues it cover,s
Posted by manic666 on May 14, 2010, at 14:12:53
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by hansi555 on May 14, 2010, at 14:05:31
yes ,dont think i was being harsh //i am blunt ,i admit//there is something amiss an your doc seem,s a dork///if on the wrong med,s could be a major factor//you may have come good without them who knows //but he want,s a kick up the *rs* on this//its not fair on you an your family
Posted by MrTook on May 14, 2010, at 14:37:50
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by manic666 on May 14, 2010, at 13:12:05
CBT was developed for the most part in regards to treating depression. As far as I know it has shown positive results across a whole spectrum of disorders.
I am not trying to force this on anybody, I was just asked what books I have read.
Have a great day!
Posted by hansi555 on May 14, 2010, at 17:14:39
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by MrTook on May 14, 2010, at 14:37:50
> CBT was developed for the most part in regards to treating depression. As far as I know it has shown positive results across a whole spectrum of disorders.
>
> I am not trying to force this on anybody, I was just asked what books I have read.
>
> Have a great day!And I appreciate it, have ordered that book on ebay already. I will be my own judge on wether it is useful to me or not.
Thanks!
Posted by bleauberry on May 14, 2010, at 17:50:23
In reply to How long can this thing last?, posted by hansi555 on May 13, 2010, at 8:38:33
I don't believe in the names given to various psychiatric conditions for a variety of reasons. It's just too complicated to mold into such a defined picture. So call it bipolar of one kind or another, whatever, it is obviously instability of nervous system chemicals for some unknown reason.
Maybe hidden infections having ebbs and flows, the effects of unsuspected mercury or lead, an adrenal system taxed beyond the ability to find steady ground, who knows at this point without some deeper diagnostic work. Could even be as simple as an allergy or intolerance of foods you commonly eat and don't realize they are the ones. Sometimes the obvious is so obvious as to be invisible.
So for now we are left with smoothing out the symptoms, which means meds that have a reputation for having potential to do that.
Zyprexa would be a strong candidate to replace remeron, for both depression and mood stabilization.
Lithium is a possibility, in the dose range of 150mg to 600mg...considerably less than commonly prescribed doses which I see as overburden.
A million doctors and people will immediately say Lamictal but I don't personally like that choice. I have hardly ever seen anyone do great with it for longer than a year, and t didn't happen in clinical studies either.
Mentioned zyprexa already. In that same class I would put abilify as a second choice.
I have good reasons for the above comments but it needs to be considered they are only one person's view.
Posted by alchemy on May 14, 2010, at 19:50:40
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by bleauberry on May 14, 2010, at 17:50:23
This is definitely very chemical. The other suggestions (reading, etc) will likely not be very helpful unless you get some medication that works.
In my opinion you have a bipolar spectrum problem. You do not need to have the happy "manic" phase to be bipolar. This is especially true for those with bipolar 2. Bipolar 2 is something that is a more recent diagnosis as psychiatrists realize there is a spectrum of bipolar illnesses. Agitation can also be considered the manic phase. I have never had the happy manic phase, I wonder what that would feel like.
I myself do not fall exactly into the bipolar 2 category, but my dr. said that is the closest disorder I match.
To me it is obvious that you "cycle" from the very bad to the not so bad. This requires a mood stabilizer. Let's hope that you have a good response to one right away. Then if there is some lingering depression, they may also want to put you on an antidepressant. But you probably shouldn't be on an antidepressant without a stabilizer.
Lamictal is the drug that they often first prescribe for the bipolar 2ish stuff. But of course that is only one option and it may not be the best for you.
I take Lamictal, Celexa, and Wellbutrin. I still have depression, but it is not as bad as it would be otherwise. And the SSRIs (like Celexa), would be making my moods more all over the place without Lamictal (a stabilizer)
I am so sorry you have gone through this. It sounds like you might have many more options to try. Take care
Posted by manic666 on May 15, 2010, at 3:40:08
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by alchemy on May 14, 2010, at 19:50:40
CTB i have done this course ,thats why i say its not really your bag//i was the only guy among a lot of women it was a group course //the only kind you get in england an then your lucky///it is mainly for panick control/ in every day life situations//the reason i said its not for you//you are able to go to work without falling to bits will anxierty //a cbt no1 /you have not got agoraphobia no 2//you can sit in a rooom without bolting for the door//no3/// you can go in a superstore without looseing you bowel movments ,thats how bad a person gets ///ctb is to learn you these things are not real an you can control them//but try telling that to a person who cr*ps themself with anxierty in public//it has many floors an out of the 11 that did the course// it helped 1 //damaged 3 worse than before //others left because ir was not helping/// an me it was the wrong course for me i had mastered those probs myself//but for someone to tell a class its not real thats happening to you// an dump you at the end of the course to your own fate is sadistic an totally out of order///as you see i think its crap
Posted by hansi555 on May 15, 2010, at 5:23:34
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by bleauberry on May 14, 2010, at 17:50:23
I tend to see my situation and solutions as 2 alternatives:
1) I am (still) stressing myself too much in terms of hours spend on all sorts of things, including work and even things in my spare time.
I go to bed too late, forget to take some breaks during my work days, my weeks are too busy.
I need to work less, take care of bedtimes and make exercise on a more regular basis.
Stress => depressed periods directly.I am even suspecting that the meds are not really helping me as I have these none-controllable mood swings that can happen at all times - also when on vacations, in weekends etc.
or
2) I am bipolar II in some kind of way, not the typical one, and I need to add some mood stabilizer, could be lithium or lacmital.
I have done enough in terms of reducing my work load and I sleep enough already as it is (7-8 hours). It is a chemical problem in my brain and I need to change my meds.
Posted by MrTook on May 15, 2010, at 11:30:08
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by manic666 on May 15, 2010, at 3:40:08
Manic666, it appears that you did not have a good experience with CBT. I am sorry that happened. Please know that CBT is much more than a group session for anxiety. I don't really know what is wrong with you or hansi, but some studies have shown CBT to be as effective as medication for a variety of ailments, and the two are even more effective when used in combination.
I do know that reading through the list of common cognitive distortions was like reading a list of how I respond to different events. Seeing the harm in these ways of thinking was very beneficial to me.
Again, I do both. I am not a no medication type of guy, but I do think you have to address both the mind and the brain when tackling the problems we face.
Best of Luck to you all,
MrTook
Posted by MrTook on May 15, 2010, at 11:36:00
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by MrTook on May 15, 2010, at 11:30:08
I just wanted to add that if you have tried and failed with any sort of therapy then I don't think any less of you for that. I imagine that different forms of therapy are a lot like different types of medication, they will work for some, but not for others.
All the best,
Mrtook
Posted by polarbear206 on May 15, 2010, at 12:39:11
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by hansi555 on May 15, 2010, at 5:23:34
> I tend to see my situation and solutions as 2 alternatives:
>
> 1) I am (still) stressing myself too much in terms of hours spend on all sorts of things, including work and even things in my spare time.
> I go to bed too late, forget to take some breaks during my work days, my weeks are too busy.
> I need to work less, take care of bedtimes and make exercise on a more regular basis.
> Stress => depressed periods directly.
>
> I am even suspecting that the meds are not really helping me as I have these none-controllable mood swings that can happen at all times - also when on vacations, in weekends etc.
>
> or
>
> 2) I am bipolar II in some kind of way, not the typical one, and I need to add some mood stabilizer, could be lithium or lacmital.
> I have done enough in terms of reducing my work load and I sleep enough already as it is (7-8 hours). It is a chemical problem in my brain and I need to change my meds.
>
>Just want you to know that I am not a classic bipolar case either. There is a broad specturm. Never had classic hypomania. Shows up with increased energy goal oriented activity, etc... Still sleep, but less, about 5-6 hours. It can manifest with increaseed anxiety and aggitation.My lows were sleeping too much and everything was an effort. Concentration was off and felt as if I was walking around in a fog. It is very misunderstood and often a diagnosis is missed for years and you wonder why your depression isin't getting better. Another red flag is that you have trialed multiple AD's and have some relief, only to have your symptoms return and thus cycles start to emerge. Most people associate bipolar with the classic form of mania and deep depressions. I highly reccomend you get the book, "Why Your Depression Isn't Getting Better" I didn't get relief until I started on lamictal in combo with another AD. And hogwash to one of the posters who states people don't have long-term success with Lamictal. I work in psyche and am an RN. You wouldn't believe all the patients who have benefitted from this drug. I'm talking 5 plus years. I've been on it for over 10 years. 200mg with Effexor. No side effects for me. I felt drugged on other mood stabilizers I trialed. That being Lithium and depakote. I'm not saying it works for everyone, but it has an excellent track record. There are other sites where people rate drugs who have been on them long term. Revolution Health is one of them. Please don't rely only on this site for all of your info. Educate yourself and come to your own conclusion. That's what I did. I acturally diagnosed myself. Subtypes of bipolar are missed and often treated as MDD and anxiety disorders. Good luck and I pray you will be well soon. Never give up hope. It is just around the corner. Be well. :)
Posted by hansi555 on May 15, 2010, at 14:30:47
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?))) Hansi555, posted by polarbear206 on May 15, 2010, at 12:39:11
Thanks for the info, will get this book also.
Dont know if I will go down the lacmital/lithium route
or completely drop the meds for a while and see how much worse life is without them.
Maybe it is too late for this - it is so difficult to judge on these things...
Posted by linkadge on May 15, 2010, at 18:33:23
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by MrTook on May 15, 2010, at 11:36:00
CBT can work if the patient has enough insight (and cognative capacity) to self monitor their behavior. You need to have some of the right connections in place for the CBT to take hold to subsequently rewire faulty thought patterns. In some psychiatric patients, the ability to reflect on behavior is almost entirely nonexistent.
Researchers have noticed that severe bipolar disorder is almost always associated with a (state dependant) virtually complete inability to reflect on actions or behavior.
The structural abnormalities in the brain (prefrontal atrophy, grey matter deficits etc.) are probably implicated to some extent.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on May 15, 2010, at 18:39:18
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?))) Hansi555, posted by polarbear206 on May 15, 2010, at 12:39:11
>Another red flag is that you have trialed >multiple AD's and have some relief, only to have >your symptoms return and thus cycles start to >emerge.
I would strongly hesitate from using this (solely) as a diagnostic for bipolar disorder. It is entirely possible that antidepressants just suck. Nobody knows why and or when they work. Subsequently nobody knows why they stop working.
I feel strongly that doctors use this as a licence (more than anything) to prescribe other drugs - instead of admitting that the drugs can (and often do) just stop working. It is still just a *theory* that antidepressants poop out more in bipolar.
One add for seroquel says "your antidepresant not working - it could be bipolar". Yet, another add says "your antidepressant not working, try abilify (as approved for MDD augmentation). I.e. bipolar or not, drug companies are looking for ways to market from the growing ever apparent lack of long term AD efficacy.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on May 15, 2010, at 18:41:10
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?))) Hansi555 » polarbear206, posted by hansi555 on May 15, 2010, at 14:30:47
and btw, some recent studies have shown that fluoxetine monotherapy is more effective in preventing relapse (mania or depression) than lithium salts in bipolar II. Both fluoxetine and lithium had relapsers but the fluoxetine group had fewer, so go figure.
Linkadge
Posted by MrTook on May 16, 2010, at 13:47:05
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by linkadge on May 15, 2010, at 18:33:23
Linkadge,
Thanks a lot for the informative post on the limits of CBT.
At first glance I would think that those capable of participating in a forum such as this one would have the necessary capabilities to self-reflect, but as my disorder *seems* to be a more garden variety anxiety/ocd/unipolar-depression I don't know the details of more serious illnesses.
Best Regards,
Mr. Took.
Posted by manic666 on May 17, 2010, at 7:52:45
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by bleauberry on May 14, 2010, at 17:50:23
cbt theropy is not trying to find away for your depression//its to stop it in the fist place//cbt is anxierty bassed not deppression bassed//its to tap[ into you mind that the things that are happening to you are not real//fight an flight is its motto//do you run or stand an fight all scary situations//of course anxierty causes depression/ if you want me to go into what there answer is i need 3 weeks..basicly its when we evolved as cave men ,i kid you not///.they are after people with a certain problem a to solve. i e, agraphobia, social phobia ect ect.i have had all these said probs an delt with it in my own way///bbbbbbbbbbbbbbut cbt is flawed you get rid of one prob an 9 out of ten get another//that why the course is no good for me an a lot more//you carnt keep going to theropy at every prob you get//you would have no time left//if you have 1 prop an they can help that 1 prob an thats the end fair enough///but it dont work no matter how many books you read //try is an find what a waste of time an money it is
Posted by linkadge on May 17, 2010, at 19:51:03
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by manic666 on May 17, 2010, at 7:52:45
I wouldn't go so far as to say that CBT is not effective. Statistics show that it can be effective for a high percentage of people.
There are people for whom CBT will work (or at least help) just as there are people for whom AD's will work (or at least help).
For some people, medications are a waste of time and money, so it goes both ways.
Studies show that the same kind of brain changes can occur with medication treatment or antidepressant treatment, namely normalization of overactive HPA axis, and increased metabolism in the prefrontal cortex.
If some people are helped without drugs, by all means go for it. The fewer people on AD's the better.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on May 17, 2010, at 20:13:21
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last? » manic666, posted by linkadge on May 17, 2010, at 19:51:03
I'm sure that CBT helps a lot of people who describe themselves as being depressed. Perhaps it has a success rate that is dependent on the subtype of depression being treated. I think CBT works from the top down while psychodynamic therapy works from the bottom up. The advantage of CBT is that it can produce positive results relatively quickly. Cognitive distortions (automatic thoughts) and behaviors are often easier to change than are core beliefs.
- behavior
- automatic thoughts
- intermediate beliefs
- core beliefs
- Scott
Posted by manic666 on May 18, 2010, at 3:09:47
In reply to Re: How long can this thing last?, posted by SLS on May 17, 2010, at 20:13:21
mabye i am a little biased,i was offered this course //an you dont get many offer,s on the nhs ,so i took it///first let me say many people were that scared of outsite situations they never even turned up///one person got the fight an flight bit straight away ,as she flew out the door before it started//onther factor i have mentioned i was the only male //apparently men think it unmanly to attend these cours,s //why i dont no.The ladies were terrified many had lost there jobs through anxierty or of sick//me i was cool i told the theropist the course was not for me but could i stay as i am willing to learn anything//she said manic i can see you have different issuies but ocourse please stay as only half had made it to the course anyway///i quickly mad friends with the terrified women an obseved the the reactions an none reactions///i cross exsamined the theropist that didnt go down to well at time//but it was flawed an on shaky ground///a few dropped out or missed days//makeing it inefective to most//they just wernt getting across to frightend woman ,who eventually found vioce an rounded on the theropist with the old qestion how the f*ck can you tell me how i feeel, you never felt this yourself//always a show stopper..///as you say they can only put the thoughts in your mind they carnt make it better its up to you// once they have told you your way of dealing with things its up to you///end of course theres the door next load of patients please?????????a lot of women leave in the same or worse state they were //there life line severed ,they all take each other phone number,s ///nobody ever rings///these women are dependant on there meds an not candidates for cbt they are to damaged//as i say i self cbted myself years ago faceing each unreal thats real to me prob as it crops up//the course never got any of these women to anywere near that level //an for them what next????????????
This is the end of the thread.
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