![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by detroitpistons on January 21, 2010, at 15:39:08
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » detroitpistons, posted by floatingbridge on January 21, 2010, at 0:13:37
Floating,
Thanks for posting. Whenever I have suicidal ideations, I always picture a gun to my head and me pulling the trigger. That's why I won't own a gun. It just makes it too easy, especially if someone is drunk and/or prone to making impulsive decisions - some people are more likely than others to do this. My friend was a pretty impulsive guy, especially when drinking. BTW, he didn't drink very often after he got married. It was a once in a while type of thing.
I've never come close to killing myself. With really bad depression, I might see the image of the gun to my head many times a day, but I don't do anything. But, for example, let's say I did come close to doing it, with a bottle of pills sitting right in front of me. I think I would probably start to think and comtemplate, and that might stop me. Even if someone starts swallowing pills, at least they still have a chance to change their minds, call 911, and then take it from there and hopefully recover in a hospital.
I think I had mentioned this in my original message, but my friend had attempted suicide before by cutting his wrists, and it didn't work. He lived another 12 years after that. He was never properly treated. I told him time and time again to go see a psychiatrist, but he just wouldn't do it.
Again, guns just make suicide too easy. There are probably thousands upon thousands of people who have attempted suicide, failed, gotten treatment, and then lived out the rest of their lives. With guns, that usually doesn't happen. It's final.
I wasn't trying to get into the whole issue about gun rights, etc with my original post. I don't know if we can or ever will be able to legislate this. I guess it's up to the friends and family members, but there's only so much they can do. The minute he told me about buying that gun I thought, "Oh boy, I have a bad feeling about this."
> Well, at my worst, I had ideations about a gun. Fortunately, I had no access, and never had the temptation to take the fantasy further. I've also stopped stock piling meds based on the same principle.
>
> Is this an urban myth: golden gate jump survivors recalling that mid-jump they had made a mistake?
>
> Some make a deliberate, planned decision--who am I too say it is not their right? However, many of us know that impulses vary in intensity and are transient. Inebriation and despair are not good decision making frames of mind.
Posted by Phillipa on January 21, 2010, at 18:57:15
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » Phillipa, posted by detroitpistons on January 20, 2010, at 23:34:00
Yes as we e-mailed I had his name and his doc's name and the doc the address. It was pretty simple. Thinking back don't know how I did it. He was mad for a while but we still e-mail daily. Love Phillipa
Posted by janejane on January 21, 2010, at 21:58:32
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » detroitpistons, posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2010, at 23:19:11
Phillipa, that's an amazing story. I'm glad he's doing well now and he's still in touch.
Posted by Phillipa on January 21, 2010, at 22:02:25
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » Phillipa, posted by janejane on January 21, 2010, at 21:58:32
Plus he's opened another law office. Just spoke with him too. How are you doing? Love Phillipa
Posted by evenintherain on January 27, 2010, at 1:43:44
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by bleauberry on January 15, 2010, at 16:16:26
i would be interested to see these statistics and where they come from.
in my opinion, it really isn't that easy to kill yourself through other means. there are times when, if i had access to a gun, i would have used it and i would be dead right now. i can say this with relative certainty and as someone who has previously attempted suicide.
a huge amount of people kill themselves with guns. suicide is generally listed as 11th highest for cause of death in the USA (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa.php?cause_id=11). homicide is 15th.
men complete suicide a lot more frequently than females, despite the fact that females attempt more than 3 times more frequently. men are more likely to use a gun.states with highest gun ownership per capita:
Louisiana, Alaska, Montana, Tennessee, Alabama.States with highest suicides rates:
Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, Nevada, New MexicoStates with lowest gun ownership per capita:
Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Jersey, New YorkStates with lowest suicide rates:
D.C., New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, Connecticut, Rhode Islandno real definitive answers here, just interesting stats.
i myself live in a state with very strict gun laws. i know, because at one time looked up getting one for suicidal reasons. if it had been easier to obtain, i doubt would be alive. i have a hard time believing this isn't the case for other people too.
> Just for clarification, it is a proven fact
> that suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders are
> significantly lower in areas where there is a
> high level of gun ownership. In areas where
> there are few guns, suicides, crimes, thefts,
> and murders skyrocket. Gun ownership tends to
> ward off chaos and evil, as the founding
> fathers knew. A murder is less likely to happen
> when the potential murderer knows his target
> also has a loaded gun.
Posted by detroitpistons on January 27, 2010, at 14:16:40
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » bleauberry, posted by evenintherain on January 27, 2010, at 1:43:44
Excellent post, in my honest opinion....Its spot on and includes some really interesting and useful information. Thanks for posting, evenintherain.
Regarding the post at the very bottom of evenintherain's post below (originally posted by bleauberry):
I too would be interested to know where bleauberrys statistics came from. By the way, Im not trying to create an argument here or to offend, or to ruffle any feathers. My mind is open to many different possibilities. But regardless of all of that, the only relevant statistics are those related to suicides, as far as I'm concerned.In other words, and to clarify, my original post was specifically and solely intended to be about gun ownership AS IT RELATES TO THE POPULATION OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE A HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, ESPECIALLY THE ONES WHO HAVE MADE 1 OR MORE SUICIDE ATTEMPTS IN THE PAST (sry, not yelling, just can't use italics)...Im not taking any position whatsoever about gun rights, gun laws/ constitutional matters, nor did I ever intend to address that. The whole gun debate is really outside of the narrow scope of my original post. Simply put - Im just making a general statement that certain individuals with known mood disorders like my friend, yours truly, and probably a good majority of the people on this board, SHOULD NOT OWN A GUN. I think that this really comes down to individual choice. My hope is that these people choose NOT to own a gun. Maybe psychiatrists/ psychologists/ therapists should make it a point to spend a couple minutes discussing this issue with anyone who battles with depression.
> i would be interested to see these statistics and where they come from.
>
> in my opinion, it really isn't that easy to kill yourself through other means. there are times when, if i had access to a gun, i would have used it and i would be dead right now. i can say this with relative certainty and as someone who has previously attempted suicide.
>
> a huge amount of people kill themselves with guns. suicide is generally listed as 11th highest for cause of death in the USA (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa.php?cause_id=11). homicide is 15th.
> men complete suicide a lot more frequently than females, despite the fact that females attempt more than 3 times more frequently. men are more likely to use a gun.
>
> states with highest gun ownership per capita:
> Louisiana, Alaska, Montana, Tennessee, Alabama.
>
> States with highest suicides rates:
> Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, Nevada, New Mexico
>
> States with lowest gun ownership per capita:
> Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Jersey, New York
>
> States with lowest suicide rates:
> D.C., New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, Connecticut, Rhode Island
>
> no real definitive answers here, just interesting stats.
>
> i myself live in a state with very strict gun laws. i know, because at one time looked up getting one for suicidal reasons. if it had been easier to obtain, i doubt would be alive. i have a hard time believing this isn't the case for other people too.
>
> > Just for clarification, it is a proven fact
> > that suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders are
> > significantly lower in areas where there is a
> > high level of gun ownership. In areas where
> > there are few guns, suicides, crimes, thefts,
> > and murders skyrocket. Gun ownership tends to
> > ward off chaos and evil, as the founding
> > fathers knew. A murder is less likely to happen
> > when the potential murderer knows his target
> > also has a loaded gun.
>
Posted by bleauberry on January 27, 2010, at 18:28:23
In reply to DON'T BUY A GUN!!! - They make 'it' much easier » evenintherain, posted by detroitpistons on January 27, 2010, at 14:16:40
Thanks for sharing. I don't disagree or agree, but respect the differing opinions in light of the fact that every home is going to present a different environment, scenario of possibilities, risks, and benefits.
My personal opinion is that a gun does not make it any more likely or less likely that someone will commit suicide. A rope does just fine in the absence of a gun. Much less mess too, if they are at all concerned about family members cleaning up the mess. A car driven off the highway into a tree does the job and doesn't look like suicide. And it's free. A gun costs money. Or find the breaker box in the house and grab the main wire. It's ll over in the blink of an eye. Chug down a bottle of Tequila along with a few Xanax or Klonopin, and it's a gentle smooth way to drift away forever without any drama or mess.
The point is, if someone is going to commit suicide, a gun is not going to make it more easy or less easy. It is just another option among several already available.
That's how I see it anyway. I've seen three suicides in my life. None involved a gun despite easy access to one in the room they killed themselves in.
Ok, let's assume some law says no one with depression can keep their gun. The Constitution says otherwise. It is a right of being a citizen. But that's another story. Ok, no gun, they took it away. Does that mean that person is more likely to live? No. Like I said, a rope, an electrical outlet, a car, a bathtub, and drugs, even an overdose of Vodka for pete's sake...all just as easy as gun, some as rapid, and some smoother and painless.
My opinion, a gun makes no difference one way or the other.
Throughout life, nothing is fair and nothing is guaranteed. Everything is a risk versus benefit scenario. As I see it, the benefits of gun ownership far outweigh by a huge margin the risks.
A family member deciding to hide a gun owned by a suicidal depressed family member, well, they shouldn't be surprised to come home and find that person hanging from a rope.
> Excellent post, in my honest opinion....Its spot on and includes some really interesting and useful information. Thanks for posting, evenintherain.
>
> Regarding the post at the very bottom of evenintherain's post below (originally posted by bleauberry):
> I too would be interested to know where bleauberrys statistics came from. By the way, Im not trying to create an argument here or to offend, or to ruffle any feathers. My mind is open to many different possibilities. But regardless of all of that, the only relevant statistics are those related to suicides, as far as I'm concerned.
>
> In other words, and to clarify, my original post was specifically and solely intended to be about gun ownership AS IT RELATES TO THE POPULATION OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE A HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, ESPECIALLY THE ONES WHO HAVE MADE 1 OR MORE SUICIDE ATTEMPTS IN THE PAST (sry, not yelling, just can't use italics)...Im not taking any position whatsoever about gun rights, gun laws/ constitutional matters, nor did I ever intend to address that. The whole gun debate is really outside of the narrow scope of my original post. Simply put - Im just making a general statement that certain individuals with known mood disorders like my friend, yours truly, and probably a good majority of the people on this board, SHOULD NOT OWN A GUN. I think that this really comes down to individual choice. My hope is that these people choose NOT to own a gun. Maybe psychiatrists/ psychologists/ therapists should make it a point to spend a couple minutes discussing this issue with anyone who battles with depression.
>
>
>
>
> > i would be interested to see these statistics and where they come from.
> >
> > in my opinion, it really isn't that easy to kill yourself through other means. there are times when, if i had access to a gun, i would have used it and i would be dead right now. i can say this with relative certainty and as someone who has previously attempted suicide.
> >
> > a huge amount of people kill themselves with guns. suicide is generally listed as 11th highest for cause of death in the USA (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa.php?cause_id=11). homicide is 15th.
> > men complete suicide a lot more frequently than females, despite the fact that females attempt more than 3 times more frequently. men are more likely to use a gun.
> >
> > states with highest gun ownership per capita:
> > Louisiana, Alaska, Montana, Tennessee, Alabama.
> >
> > States with highest suicides rates:
> > Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, Nevada, New Mexico
> >
> > States with lowest gun ownership per capita:
> > Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Jersey, New York
> >
> > States with lowest suicide rates:
> > D.C., New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, Connecticut, Rhode Island
> >
> > no real definitive answers here, just interesting stats.
> >
> > i myself live in a state with very strict gun laws. i know, because at one time looked up getting one for suicidal reasons. if it had been easier to obtain, i doubt would be alive. i have a hard time believing this isn't the case for other people too.
> >
> > > Just for clarification, it is a proven fact
> > > that suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders are
> > > significantly lower in areas where there is a
> > > high level of gun ownership. In areas where
> > > there are few guns, suicides, crimes, thefts,
> > > and murders skyrocket. Gun ownership tends to
> > > ward off chaos and evil, as the founding
> > > fathers knew. A murder is less likely to happen
> > > when the potential murderer knows his target
> > > also has a loaded gun.
> >
>
>
Posted by bleauberry on January 27, 2010, at 19:00:01
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 5:00:52
This has been a great discussion and I enjoyed what everyone contributed.
Somewhere along the line however I missed my most important message. I meant to say it right at the beginning. Got too involved. Lost in the shuffle.
So here it is.
If anyone is in such a condition of suicidal risk, do one of two things:
1. Drive them personally to the emergency room.
2. Call 911.
3. If it is you yourself, don't try to be superman. Get to the hospital and tell them honestly you are fearing for you life. If you are too far gone to even drive to the hospital, pick up the nearest phone, dial 911, and say, "I think I want to kill myself." You'll be in safe hands within minutes.The gun thing is a nonfactor. Anyone that depressed should not be at home. The risk is too high, no matter what the actual killing tool is.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 27, 2010, at 19:25:07
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by bleauberry on January 27, 2010, at 19:00:01
BB,
This is an interesting thread. I have been at two scenes, razor and gun. And as I think about it, my husband lost two men in his family by self-inflicted gun shot.
Disclosure: guns damaged the quality of the world. I wish they had never been invented. If we could use discovery and technology for humane purposes, well, we'd all be leading different lives.
I intended to write something very different, more egalitarian, more tolerant. Guns make it easier to kill. Period.
My favorite authors had ingenious ways; rocks in the pocket while walking into water; hanging; poison; disembowelment; disappearing on a frozen night. Reminds me of Leonard Cohen's song, "who by fire".
What a world. I debate endlessly and without resolution w/ a family member over 'the right to bear arms' and what it really could mean to have a gun in the houses. I'm not a true pacifist--I do not have the strength that would take.
respectfully, and in the spirit of debate,
fb
This has been a great discussion and I enjoyed what everyone contributed.
>
> Somewhere along the line however I missed my most important message. I meant to say it right at the beginning. Got too involved. Lost in the shuffle.
>
> So here it is.
>
> If anyone is in such a condition of suicidal risk, do one of two things:
> 1. Drive them personally to the emergency room.
> 2. Call 911.
> 3. If it is you yourself, don't try to be superman. Get to the hospital and tell them honestly you are fearing for you life. If you are too far gone to even drive to the hospital, pick up the nearest phone, dial 911, and say, "I think I want to kill myself." You'll be in safe hands within minutes.
>
> The gun thing is a nonfactor. Anyone that depressed should not be at home. The risk is too high, no matter what the actual killing tool is.
Posted by detroitpistons on January 27, 2010, at 23:24:44
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! - They make 'it' much easier, posted by bleauberry on January 27, 2010, at 18:28:23
Bleau,
Agree to disagree. However, I think this is more than just a matter of personal opinion, so I feel compelled to respond further.
You had originally stated the following:
"Just for clarification, it is a proven fact that suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders are significantly lower in areas where there is a high level of gun ownership. In areas where there are few guns, suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders skyrocket. Gun ownership tends to ward off chaos and evil, as the founding fathers knew. A murder is less likely to happen when the potential murderer knows his target also has a loaded gun.
This is all kind of backwards from our first instinctual response, but it is statistical fact."
I think you are incorrect in proclaiming some of those statements above as "statistical fact." To the contrary, everything I have read seems to indicate the exact opposite. Nothing has been "proven" yet, more data is needed, and more research will be performed. Eventually, we'll be able to sort out the nuances of this statistical relationship and be able to paint a better picture and understand exactly how causation fits in, but that level of detail is a little beyond the scope of this discussion. For our purposes, I think the evidence that we already have about guns and suicide is overwhelmingly at odds with the statements made in your quote.
One thing is becoming increasingly clear: Individuals who own a gun are more likely to commit suicide than are other individuals, period. I feel comfortable in saying that this is much more of a "statistical fact" than is your claim. If you can find something that supports your claim, I'd love to see it.
Most of the data that do exist and the research studies seem to indicate a strong correlation between gun ownership and the likelihood of suicide. I have to admit, I'm a little short on time now, so I haven't yet researched this as thoroughly as I would have liked. Here are at least a couple things to consider:
- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17risk.html
- http://econweb.umd.edu/~duggan/guns-suic-final.pdfAlso, I think it's an oversimplification to say that everybody will just use a rope or take pills or drive their car into a wall. There's a lot more to it than that. You can't just assume that every single person in every situation will find a different option and execute it successfully. There are lots of scenarios and examples that prove this. Some people are just ignorant and they really don't know a good way to do it. There are millions of scenarios. Again, the data show that owning a gun does make suicide easier and more likely.
Regarding this: "As I see it, the benefits of gun ownership far outweigh by a huge margin the risks."
For a depressed person with prior suicide attempts? I seriously doubt that the benefits outweigh the risk for someone with that history. Remember, we're talking about a select population of people here who have mood disorders, not all of America. In order for the benefits of gun ownership to outweigh the risks for a depressive with past suicide attempts, that person would have to be living in a severely dangerous location, like in the middle of the Amazon surrounded by hungry crocodiles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for sharing. I don't disagree or agree, but respect the differing opinions in light of the fact that every home is going to present a different environment, scenario of possibilities, risks, and benefits.
>
> My personal opinion is that a gun does not make it any more likely or less likely that someone will commit suicide. A rope does just fine in the absence of a gun. Much less mess too, if they are at all concerned about family members cleaning up the mess. A car driven off the highway into a tree does the job and doesn't look like suicide. And it's free. A gun costs money. Or find the breaker box in the house and grab the main wire. It's ll over in the blink of an eye. Chug down a bottle of Tequila along with a few Xanax or Klonopin, and it's a gentle smooth way to drift away forever without any drama or mess.
>
> The point is, if someone is going to commit suicide, a gun is not going to make it more easy or less easy. It is just another option among several already available.
>
> That's how I see it anyway. I've seen three suicides in my life. None involved a gun despite easy access to one in the room they killed themselves in.
>
> Ok, let's assume some law says no one with depression can keep their gun. The Constitution says otherwise. It is a right of being a citizen. But that's another story. Ok, no gun, they took it away. Does that mean that person is more likely to live? No. Like I said, a rope, an electrical outlet, a car, a bathtub, and drugs, even an overdose of Vodka for pete's sake...all just as easy as gun, some as rapid, and some smoother and painless.
>
> My opinion, a gun makes no difference one way or the other.
>
> Throughout life, nothing is fair and nothing is guaranteed. Everything is a risk versus benefit scenario. As I see it, the benefits of gun ownership far outweigh by a huge margin the risks.
>
> A family member deciding to hide a gun owned by a suicidal depressed family member, well, they shouldn't be surprised to come home and find that person hanging from a rope.
Posted by evenintherain on January 28, 2010, at 3:26:11
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by floatingbridge on January 27, 2010, at 19:25:07
i also don't want to offend anyone, and i doubt anything i might say could change anyone's mind.
but this somehow struck a nerve and i thought i would comment: "a bottle of Tequila along with a few Xanax or Klonopin, and it's a gentle smooth way to drift away forever without any drama or mess."
that's not how it works. the human body is very resilient, it is not so easy to put down. people don't just gently fall asleep. if you poison yourself, your body will react. violently. you don't expect to die instantly (or at all, in most cases). you have to wait, probably in intense fear, for everything to kick in.
i think this fear is why a gun may be a favored method (over all the rest, the pluses and minuses of which i will not be going over here) by some people (results are speedy and irreversible, despite the numerous downsides).
anyway, i can't speak for anyone else, but i can certainly speak for myself when i say the potential benefits most certainly do not outweigh the risks of gun ownership, and the rational part of myself certainly hopes no one would let me get a hold of one.
Posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2010, at 17:14:39
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 5:00:52
I don't have them at hand, but it was a magazine and two newspaper articles that did editorials on how neighborhoods with the highest gun ownership had dramatically lower crime levels. I guess the reasoning was that criminals were not the only ones that had guns, and thus they were neutralized from attempting crime in those neighborhoods. The gunless neighborhoods were the ones hit hard by crime. It was a sidenote, but suicide rates were also lower in the gun ownership neighborhoods.
We've all heard this saying before, but it deserves repeating once in a while...
People kill people (or self), guns don't kill people. The gun does absolutely nothing without the purposeful direction of a human being. It wasn't the gun's fault that the trigger got pulled.
Granted, for a very depressed person, a nearby gun makes it quick and easy.
My father used to work as a trauma surgeon and told stories of many people who shot themselves in the head, only to survive the rest of their lives blinded, paralyzed, or mentally retarded. So even with a gun, it isn't guaranteed.
No matter. If someone is that depressed and intervention does not occur, they will die at their own hand one way or another. Whether they have access to a gun or not will not significantly change the outcome.
I've never seen any studies or statistics on people who were attempting suicide, but didn't have a gun, and so aborted the suicide attempts. That would be interesting. My guess is those numbers would be very low. If they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 28, 2010, at 17:28:04
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2010, at 17:14:39
I know, BB. People kill people. It's true. However, don't you think guns make it a wee bit easier?
best,
fb
Posted by detroitpistons on January 28, 2010, at 18:16:40
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2010, at 17:14:39
I want to respond to a couple points. I'll add my comments under each quoted section below.
>>>> I don't have them at hand, but it was a magazine and two newspaper articles that did editorials on how neighborhoods with the highest gun ownership had dramatically lower crime levels. I guess the reasoning was that criminals were not the only ones that had guns, and thus they were neutralized from attempting crime in those neighborhoods. The gunless neighborhoods were the ones hit hard by crime. It was a sidenote, but suicide rates were also lower in the gun ownership neighborhoods. <<<<
No offense, but a couple of editorials in magazines and newspapers do not science make. What you described about the content of these OPINION pieces completely flies in the face of the data and information gathered from numerous, real studies and statistics.
>>>> Granted, for a very depressed person, a nearby gun makes it quick and easy. <<<<
So you do think that it's a bad idea for a very depressed person to own or have access to a gun? Now we're getting somewhere.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> No matter. If someone is that depressed and intervention does not occur, they will die at their own hand one way or another. Whether they have access to a gun or not will not significantly change the outcome. <<<<This is simply not a true statement, to say the least. There is no evidence to support what you're saying as far as outcomes. Again, the evidence suggests the opposite.
Secondly, they will NOT necessarily die at their own hands one way or the other. Please stop saying that. You just can't make a bold statement like that as a matter of fact. It's a logical fallacy. Every single attempted failed suicide proves that they all will NOT "die at their own hand one way or another".
Statistics aside, isn't this just common sense? You're fighting an uphill battle trying to argue that it's perfectly OK for depressed people to own guns.
My friend tried slitting his wrists years ago. It didn't work. He didn't know what he was doing. The next morning, he went and bought rope and was going to hang himself. He was AWOL from the Army and he was in Canada. His family managed to track him down based on credit card transactions. His stepbrother found him sitting in the parking lot of his hotel in his car after he had returned from buying the rope. Clearly, in this case, the fact that he was unarmed saved his life. With a gun, he would've been dead.
Nobody's trying to say that guns are evil or that we should make laws to make it harder to buy guns or anything like that. I don't hate guns. I'm not against people owning guns.
It's a bad idea for people who are at risk of committing suicide to possess a gun!! How could anybody argue that? No matter what you want to believe, guns do make it easier to kill yourself! They are very effective for that purpose.
I don't know what else to say.
Posted by bleauberry on January 29, 2010, at 15:03:29
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » bleauberry, posted by detroitpistons on January 28, 2010, at 18:16:40
Hi, thanks for the feedback. Makes for interesting thought.
I do not think a severely depressed person should have access to a gun.
I see it here all the time when someone says, "Where's the evidence?" Come on. I read it months ago and I don't remember where. I just got home from work. I got dinner to cook and things to do. Am I really going to spend my entire evening doing a research project on guns to answer somebody's challenge for information? I don't think so. Somebody can do it themselves if it means that much to them. I'm just participating in a discussion of ideas.
For every time I am challenged for scientific documentation, the challenger does not offer any of their own. ??? People once in a while will ask, "Where's your proof?" Well, I return the question, "Where's yours?". When in reality, hard proof of anything mostly does not exist.
Editorials are, yeah, I'm always skeptical. Too much bias and flaw usually. And even with hard science, there is plenty of bias and flaw. Even our best clinical studies presented to FDA are chock full of bias and flaw. So going full circle back to the challenge for scientific data...no matter the source and no matter the side of the debate...skepticism is warranted.
But it does make for interesting discussion.
While a small percentage of guns will cause disaster, an overwhelming majority of them prevent disaster. That's my stance. Without gun ownership, there would be chaos. The founding fathers had divine wisdom in recognizing that people have the right to self defense. The mere suspicion that a particular neighborhood is well armed will send criminals to easier prey elsewhere.
But back to depression, it probably is not a good idea for a badly depressed person to have a gun nearby. They're probably going to do it anyway, but no sense in someone helping them by leaving a gun around.
If it is their own gun, well, that's a different story. No one has the right to take it away unless the depressed person approves or if it is demanded by a Judge.
Posted by detroitpistons on January 29, 2010, at 16:32:54
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » detroitpistons, posted by bleauberry on January 29, 2010, at 15:03:29
****I see it here all the time when someone says, "Where's the evidence?" Come on. I read it months ago and I don't remember where. I just got home from work. I got dinner to cook and things to do. Am I really going to spend my entire evening doing a research project on guns to answer somebody's challenge for information? I don't think so. Somebody can do it themselves if it means that much to them. I'm just participating in a discussion of ideas.****
First off, you made a bunch of pretty incredible claims about guns and crime and suicides. The burden of proof is on you, not me. Secondly, you're not "just participating in a discussion of ideas." This is a serious subject, and you're making assumptions and statements that are misleading or false. I'm sorry, but if you're making a wild claim about a serious subject that relates to life and death, then you should either take the time to do some research or you shouldn't post anything at all.
The only time I ever ask anyone to cite their sources or show me evidence, is when someone is making a wild or controversial or poorly supported claim. After I read your info. I immediately thought, "WOW, that is unbelievable," (especially the part about suicides being lower in areas with a more guns, etc) and so I was naturally very interested to find out the source of the information and read it for myself because it was opposite of everything I'd ever read. Anyhow, it doesn't take much research to figure out that guns and depression don't mix and that when people have guns, they are much more likely to commit suicide. I thought that was somewhat common knowledge, and also common sense...
****For every time I am challenged for scientific documentation, the challenger does not offer any of their own. ??? People once in a while will ask, "Where's your proof?" Well, I return the question, "Where's yours?". When in reality, hard proof of anything mostly does not exist.****
Again, the burden of proof isn't on me, but I did post a link to an article about a research study and I posted another link to a research paper. The information is out there. It's all over the place. On the other hand, I can't find anything to support what you're claiming. I'm sorry if I've come across as abrasive, but I want to make sure that this thread is accurate because this is important to me. As you know, my friend just killed himself with a gun, so this subject is especially sensitive to me right now.
****But back to depression, it probably is not a good idea for a badly depressed person to have a gun nearby. They're probably going to do it anyway, but no sense in someone helping them by leaving a gun around.****
So we agree on the first sentence. It's not a good idea for depressed people to have guns around. In your first couple posts though, I thought you were trying to say that it didn't matter.
As far as the "They're probably going to do it anyway" part, we have to agree to disagree on that. There's nothing left to be said. Again, there are so many examples...My Mom would be dead right now if she had a gun the day she tried to take her own life 10 years ago. Today, she's healthy and happy.
Posted by Sigismund on January 29, 2010, at 18:37:57
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » detroitpistons, posted by bleauberry on January 29, 2010, at 15:03:29
>Without gun ownership, there would be chaos.
I take this to mean that it is difficult to restrict gun ownership once guns are widely available. Otherwise it makes no sense to me (compare Bhutan vs Congo). And I agree. Our PM had to wear a bullet proof vest for a bit after gun control of *rifles* was introduced, which was done by a (very) conservative government after a particularly gruesome massacre. Mr Howard said then 'I am determined that Australia will not go down the same path as the United States'.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 29, 2010, at 19:25:50
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by Sigismund on January 29, 2010, at 18:37:57
They're like a virus.
Posted by bleauberry on January 30, 2010, at 13:00:15
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by detroitpistons on January 29, 2010, at 16:32:54
Hey, sorry to have sparked a hot spot with you. Wasn't intended. Please accept apologies.
We do agree suicide rates are higher with gun ownership. Indeed I found stats to prove that this morning.
Being kind of bored I decided to do some googling to see what I could find on the topic. Here's what I found:
1. Someone can make a scientifically supported case that high gun ownership is positively coorelated with high gun crime.
2. Someone can make a scientifically supported case that high gun ownership is negatively coorelated with high gun crime.
3. Stats and interpretations of available data appear sound on the surface, but are skewed and flawed when looking at the details and unconsidered variables.
4. There is enough scientific evidence on either side of this debate to make a case either way. We as humans tend to "cherrypick" what we read. You did that to support your views, and I did with mine. In reality, a sound case can be made to support both views, which brings me full circle to a previous statement that our best evidence means whatever it means in the eyes of the stat collection method, the variables not included in the stats, and the interpreter's perception. This morning I searched for evidence on both sides and found equal amounts.
5. Some areas of high gun ownership did have the least amount of gun crime, while others had the highest. Geography matters. One size doesn't fit all. A blanket statement by either you or me is false.
6. Some counties without guns had higher suicide rates than USA per capita. See here how one could interpret that several ways, and how other likely important variables are needed to get a better picture of what it means.
Bsically what I came away with is that you and me were both arguing correctly that gun ownership contributes to suicide. In our other debates, we were both partially correct and partially wrong.
This article by the University of Florida summed it fairly well:
"Valid measures of macro-level gun levels are essential to assessing the impact of gun levels on crime and violence rates, yet almost all prior research on this topic uses proxies that are either invalid or whose validity has been assumed rather than demonstrated. The present study uses city, state, cross-national, and time series data to assess the criterion validity of over two dozen gun indicators. The criterion measures used are primarily direct survey measures of household gun prevalence. The results indicate that (1) most measures used in past research have poor validity, making past findings uninterpretable, (2) the best measure for cross-sectional research is the percentage of suicides committed with guns, and (3) there are no known measures that are valid indicators of trends in gun levels, making credible longitudinal research on the subject impossible at present.
A final interesting thing I discovered that none of us had mentioned yet was that the color of the skin of a geographic region, as well as the population density of a region, were potent players that could sway the results far one way or far another way.
All that said, I hereby apologize for making my statements as boldly as I did. As is common in almost everything in the world, "More research is needed."
Posted by bulldog2 on January 30, 2010, at 22:59:25
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » detroitpistons, posted by bleauberry on January 30, 2010, at 13:00:15
So what is the imppact of guns on suicide rates?These are my thoughts and not a study.I would think there are two kinds of suicides. There are planned suicides and spur of the moment suicide.
I would think that guns would impact both kinds of suicides. If done correctly death by gun is almost instantaneous. For the planned suicide the really determined would generally find another method to die if a gun were not available. So the impact of gun ownership here might not be that great. Some might not follow thru if that is the only way they wished to die. But I believe that number is small.
For spur of the moment I think the presence of a gun might be significant. In the moment of dispair the gun is there and death is fast.
Many have probably gone that route.Those prone to depression should probably not own a gun. Sometimes when I am feeling down and defeated I think of the gun in the drawer. How easy to end this long struggle. The mind does wander.
Posted by Sigismund on January 30, 2010, at 23:27:04
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! Suicide, posted by bulldog2 on January 30, 2010, at 22:59:25
>Sometimes when I am feeling down and defeated I think of the gun in the drawer.
What shape of gun?
When I looked down the end of a rifle the whole thing seemed a little difficult to coordinate.
Posted by Sigismund on January 30, 2010, at 23:37:03
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! Suicide, posted by Sigismund on January 30, 2010, at 23:27:04
>When I looked down the end of a rifle the whole thing seemed a little difficult to coordinate.
I'll try to look on the bright side: maybe my arms have grown.
Though now we have gun control.
What's a gun anyway? Not that I care. I've had enough. So it's paradise here and now? I was always wrong about everything.
I need to think outside our wretched culture.
Wade Davis is on the radio in 25 minutes.
Posted by bulldog2 on January 31, 2010, at 9:25:59
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! Suicide, posted by Sigismund on January 30, 2010, at 23:27:04
> >Sometimes when I am feeling down and defeated I think of the gun in the drawer.
>
> What shape of gun?
>
> When I looked down the end of a rifle the whole thing seemed a little difficult to coordinate.Sub nose 357 caliber smith and wesson revolver 5 shot. Small enough to conceal.
Posted by Yoder on February 7, 2010, at 15:28:34
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! Suicide, posted by bulldog2 on January 30, 2010, at 22:59:25
I was raised around weapons of various types, and then the Army taught me how to use them efficiently during the days of Vietnam.
The primary purpose of most pistols and rifles is for killing. Despite knowing how to use them I have not had one in my home since 1976. To have weapons of any sort in a home where children are present is irresponsible parenting. Some gun advocates may disagree, but so few people store firearms safely. Children access them and then disasters happen. I have seen too many teenagers commit suicide with firearms found in the home in my 21 years of teaching.
Then there are those situations that involve depression. Too tempting.
If a firearm must be kept in a home, then it should have a trigger lock, and the keys should be stored in a safe deposit box, or any place else that makes access a little more difficult.
Remote locations like Alaska, requires firearms for protection from some of those knarly critters..but in the city there really is no justifiable reason to posses one.
Posted by detroitpistons on February 8, 2010, at 14:07:11
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! Suicide, posted by Yoder on February 7, 2010, at 15:28:34
Two thumbs way up!!
> I was raised around weapons of various types, and then the Army taught me how to use them efficiently during the days of Vietnam.
>
> The primary purpose of most pistols and rifles is for killing. Despite knowing how to use them I have not had one in my home since 1976. To have weapons of any sort in a home where children are present is irresponsible parenting. Some gun advocates may disagree, but so few people store firearms safely. Children access them and then disasters happen. I have seen too many teenagers commit suicide with firearms found in the home in my 21 years of teaching.
>
> Then there are those situations that involve depression. Too tempting.
>
> If a firearm must be kept in a home, then it should have a trigger lock, and the keys should be stored in a safe deposit box, or any place else that makes access a little more difficult.
>
> Remote locations like Alaska, requires firearms for protection from some of those knarly critters..but in the city there really is no justifiable reason to posses one.
This is the end of the thread.
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