![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by bulldog2 on January 16, 2010, at 17:40:10
In reply to DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by detroitpistons on January 14, 2010, at 18:43:51
> I really wish it wasn't so easy to buy a gun. My friend committed suicide last week. He had a history of depression, but had never been properly treated for it. I think he was in denial about it.
>
> He had attempted suicide years ago while in the Army and was put on medication, but he eventually went off of it. A few months ago, he went on Zoloft (through a family doctor) and then went off of it. I urged him not to do it and to see a psychiatrist instead of a family doctor. Again, I think he was in denial. He was always a "tough guy."
>
> He bought a gun months ago. He had previously had a CCW and used to carry a pistol when working as an armed guard, and like I said, he was also in the Army. In light of this, it wasn't a huge surprise that he bought the gun. He enjoyed target practice.
>
> He had had a lot of career problems. He had obtained a business degree and couldn't find a job. He finally decided to go into law enforcement, and he had been accepted into an independent police academy, despite concerns that his depression history would prevent him from becoming a policeman.
>
> It finally seemed like things were on track for him, and he seemed to be doing fine. I had seen him just before Christmas and he was in good spirits.
>
> Last week, he unexpectedly used his gun to end his life after having had an argument with his wife. He had been drinking.
>
> I firmly believe that he wouldn't have taken his life had it not been for that gun and/or if he wasn't drunk.
>
> It should be harder to get a gun. I have a history of depression, but I could probably go out and buy a gun right now....You can say he would've done it anyways, but possessing the gun made it a heck of a lot easier for him to carry out his impulsive decision in a drunken state.
>
> For the love of god, don't buy a gun!I keep two loaded guns in my bedroom drawer. They were bought for protection. But sometimes I have thoughts about how easy it would be to end things in this crazy world. Sometimes I think I should take the bullets out of the gun. But they still lay in that drawer with my socks. They are there for protection in case someone breaks into the house.I don't think I have the guts to do that anyhow.
Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on January 16, 2010, at 17:56:37
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by bulldog2 on January 16, 2010, at 17:40:10
And what about your little grandkids???
Posted by Phillipa on January 16, 2010, at 20:20:38
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on January 16, 2010, at 17:56:37
Colorado hi!!!!! And good question. Love Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 5:00:52
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on January 16, 2010, at 17:56:37
When at bottom, I've begun to think this last year that I'm so glad I do not own or havr access to a gun. I'm so thankful. Really, nothing would come it. But we most likely van go some pretty dark places
Posted by bleauberry on January 20, 2010, at 19:15:40
In reply to DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by detroitpistons on January 14, 2010, at 18:43:51
I just saw a story on the news where a guy saved his life with a gun yesterday.
His car went off the road into water. As the car was sinking, he pulled out his gun to shoot the window so he could get out.
So in an ironic kind of way, while a gun was used to end one person's life, it saved the life of another.
Posted by detroitpistons on January 20, 2010, at 20:29:14
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by bleauberry on January 20, 2010, at 19:15:40
I'm glad that the gentleman had a gun and that it helped to save his life. I recently read a story about a guy who was charged by a really big grizzly bear. Can't remember the location, but it was a more remote area, maybe Alaska. Anyways, the guy had a very large caliber handgun and it stopped the bear at the last second. If I lived in a place with a lot of grizzlies, I'd carry a hand canon too.
I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about gun rights. I'm pretty much in the middle, I guess. I just think it's a bad idea for people who have suicidal tendencies to own a gun. Actually, let me take that a step further and say definitively, as more or less fact, that PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUICIDAL TENDENCIES SHOULD NOT POSSESS A GUN!! PERIOD.
Now, am I saying that we should pass laws to try to prevent this type of thing? No, not necessarily. That is a huge can of worms. Should the Virginia Tech shooter have had the ability to buy guns? Probably not, but I don't know if there's any easy way to have prevented that without getting into a lot of privacy rights and constitutional issues.
Bottom line - I just wish that my friend didn't have a gun on that evening, because this seemed like a snap decision. He was actually having a great day with his wife. Things were getting better for him. Then he got drunk and that was the end. Nobody has any explanation. This was completely unpredictable.
I believe that my friend would still be alive today had that gun not been there. I bet he would have gone to bed. Maybe he would have swallowed a bunch of pills, but guess what? His wife probably would have gotten him to the hospital in time to save him and then everybody would have known the severity of his problems and he and his wife would have taken steps towards making a proper recovery and learning more about the illness and how to deal with it in the future.
Things could have gone a different direction, for the better. That's not wishful thinking. My mom tried to kill herself with pills 10 years ago and my Dad found her and she survived. It was a "cry for help." Guess what? She's still alive today, except that she learned a lot from that whole ordeal in terms of recognizing signs/ symptoms, what to do in a crisis, etc, etc, and she was then properly treated. I really doubt she's going to try it again because of everything that she went through and learned from that 1st attempt. If she had a gun in her hand that day instead of that bottle of pills, she'd be dead.
With all due respect, by your rationale, people like my mother would have killed themselves anyways, right? Can you see how that logic is flawed? My friend could still be alive today and he could be recovering. He could have gotten better. The gun being present assured his death. What he really needed was a "cry for help" because he was too embarrassed or proud to really seek help on his own.
There is nothing anybody can say to change my mind about this. Had there been no gun in that house on that night, my friend would be alive today, and he may very well have gone on to live out the rest of his life.
So I'm going to say this again...If you are a member of this board with a history of depression, with or without a history of suicide attempts, then DON'T BUY A MOTHERF***ING GUN!! Seems like common sense to me.
> I just saw a story on the news where a guy saved his life with a gun yesterday.
>
> His car went off the road into water. As the car was sinking, he pulled out his gun to shoot the window so he could get out.
>
> So in an ironic kind of way, while a gun was used to end one person's life, it saved the life of another.
>
>
Posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2010, at 23:19:11
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » bleauberry, posted by detroitpistons on January 20, 2010, at 20:29:14
I definitely agree with your rationale. As a sidenote someone write with had a gun sent me an e-mail saying he would shoot himself. Knew what state was in and city called the police dept there as googled the number of police they took him to the hospital three day lock up. But guess what he finally got better, is back up in his career making good money. And a former babbler. I even talked with his pdoc and forwarded the suicidal emails to the doc. So this story has a happy ending. He no longer comes here is happy and productive. Although he will not give me credit for his recovery I seriously think the hospital scared him into normalcy!!!!! We still e-mail three years later!!!! Love Phillipa
Posted by detroitpistons on January 20, 2010, at 23:34:00
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » detroitpistons, posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2010, at 23:19:11
Phillipa,
That's a great story. Thanks for sharing. Also, major, major kudos to you for taking action and getting the police over there!! You're awesome! You probably saved a man's life, and you didn't even need to leave the house!
Just out of curiosity, how did they track him down? You said you knew his city and state, but did you know his name and/or address?
> I definitely agree with your rationale. As a sidenote someone write with had a gun sent me an e-mail saying he would shoot himself. Knew what state was in and city called the police dept there as googled the number of police they took him to the hospital three day lock up. But guess what he finally got better, is back up in his career making good money. And a former babbler. I even talked with his pdoc and forwarded the suicidal emails to the doc. So this story has a happy ending. He no longer comes here is happy and productive. Although he will not give me credit for his recovery I seriously think the hospital scared him into normalcy!!!!! We still e-mail three years later!!!! Love Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on January 21, 2010, at 0:13:37
In reply to DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by detroitpistons on January 14, 2010, at 18:43:51
Well, at my worst, I had ideations about a gun. Fortunately, I had no access, and never had the temptation to take the fantasy further. I've also stopped stock piling meds based on the same principle.
Is this an urban myth: golden gate jump survivors recalling that mid-jump they had made a mistake?
Some make a deliberate, planned decision--who am I too say it is not their right? However, many of us know that impulses vary in intensity and are transient. Inebriation and despair are not good decision making frames of mind.
Posted by detroitpistons on January 21, 2010, at 15:39:08
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » detroitpistons, posted by floatingbridge on January 21, 2010, at 0:13:37
Floating,
Thanks for posting. Whenever I have suicidal ideations, I always picture a gun to my head and me pulling the trigger. That's why I won't own a gun. It just makes it too easy, especially if someone is drunk and/or prone to making impulsive decisions - some people are more likely than others to do this. My friend was a pretty impulsive guy, especially when drinking. BTW, he didn't drink very often after he got married. It was a once in a while type of thing.
I've never come close to killing myself. With really bad depression, I might see the image of the gun to my head many times a day, but I don't do anything. But, for example, let's say I did come close to doing it, with a bottle of pills sitting right in front of me. I think I would probably start to think and comtemplate, and that might stop me. Even if someone starts swallowing pills, at least they still have a chance to change their minds, call 911, and then take it from there and hopefully recover in a hospital.
I think I had mentioned this in my original message, but my friend had attempted suicide before by cutting his wrists, and it didn't work. He lived another 12 years after that. He was never properly treated. I told him time and time again to go see a psychiatrist, but he just wouldn't do it.
Again, guns just make suicide too easy. There are probably thousands upon thousands of people who have attempted suicide, failed, gotten treatment, and then lived out the rest of their lives. With guns, that usually doesn't happen. It's final.
I wasn't trying to get into the whole issue about gun rights, etc with my original post. I don't know if we can or ever will be able to legislate this. I guess it's up to the friends and family members, but there's only so much they can do. The minute he told me about buying that gun I thought, "Oh boy, I have a bad feeling about this."
> Well, at my worst, I had ideations about a gun. Fortunately, I had no access, and never had the temptation to take the fantasy further. I've also stopped stock piling meds based on the same principle.
>
> Is this an urban myth: golden gate jump survivors recalling that mid-jump they had made a mistake?
>
> Some make a deliberate, planned decision--who am I too say it is not their right? However, many of us know that impulses vary in intensity and are transient. Inebriation and despair are not good decision making frames of mind.
Posted by Phillipa on January 21, 2010, at 18:57:15
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » Phillipa, posted by detroitpistons on January 20, 2010, at 23:34:00
Yes as we e-mailed I had his name and his doc's name and the doc the address. It was pretty simple. Thinking back don't know how I did it. He was mad for a while but we still e-mail daily. Love Phillipa
Posted by janejane on January 21, 2010, at 21:58:32
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » detroitpistons, posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2010, at 23:19:11
Phillipa, that's an amazing story. I'm glad he's doing well now and he's still in touch.
Posted by Phillipa on January 21, 2010, at 22:02:25
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » Phillipa, posted by janejane on January 21, 2010, at 21:58:32
Plus he's opened another law office. Just spoke with him too. How are you doing? Love Phillipa
Posted by evenintherain on January 27, 2010, at 1:43:44
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by bleauberry on January 15, 2010, at 16:16:26
i would be interested to see these statistics and where they come from.
in my opinion, it really isn't that easy to kill yourself through other means. there are times when, if i had access to a gun, i would have used it and i would be dead right now. i can say this with relative certainty and as someone who has previously attempted suicide.
a huge amount of people kill themselves with guns. suicide is generally listed as 11th highest for cause of death in the USA (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa.php?cause_id=11). homicide is 15th.
men complete suicide a lot more frequently than females, despite the fact that females attempt more than 3 times more frequently. men are more likely to use a gun.states with highest gun ownership per capita:
Louisiana, Alaska, Montana, Tennessee, Alabama.States with highest suicides rates:
Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, Nevada, New MexicoStates with lowest gun ownership per capita:
Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Jersey, New YorkStates with lowest suicide rates:
D.C., New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, Connecticut, Rhode Islandno real definitive answers here, just interesting stats.
i myself live in a state with very strict gun laws. i know, because at one time looked up getting one for suicidal reasons. if it had been easier to obtain, i doubt would be alive. i have a hard time believing this isn't the case for other people too.
> Just for clarification, it is a proven fact
> that suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders are
> significantly lower in areas where there is a
> high level of gun ownership. In areas where
> there are few guns, suicides, crimes, thefts,
> and murders skyrocket. Gun ownership tends to
> ward off chaos and evil, as the founding
> fathers knew. A murder is less likely to happen
> when the potential murderer knows his target
> also has a loaded gun.
Posted by detroitpistons on January 27, 2010, at 14:16:40
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » bleauberry, posted by evenintherain on January 27, 2010, at 1:43:44
Excellent post, in my honest opinion....Its spot on and includes some really interesting and useful information. Thanks for posting, evenintherain.
Regarding the post at the very bottom of evenintherain's post below (originally posted by bleauberry):
I too would be interested to know where bleauberrys statistics came from. By the way, Im not trying to create an argument here or to offend, or to ruffle any feathers. My mind is open to many different possibilities. But regardless of all of that, the only relevant statistics are those related to suicides, as far as I'm concerned.In other words, and to clarify, my original post was specifically and solely intended to be about gun ownership AS IT RELATES TO THE POPULATION OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE A HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, ESPECIALLY THE ONES WHO HAVE MADE 1 OR MORE SUICIDE ATTEMPTS IN THE PAST (sry, not yelling, just can't use italics)...Im not taking any position whatsoever about gun rights, gun laws/ constitutional matters, nor did I ever intend to address that. The whole gun debate is really outside of the narrow scope of my original post. Simply put - Im just making a general statement that certain individuals with known mood disorders like my friend, yours truly, and probably a good majority of the people on this board, SHOULD NOT OWN A GUN. I think that this really comes down to individual choice. My hope is that these people choose NOT to own a gun. Maybe psychiatrists/ psychologists/ therapists should make it a point to spend a couple minutes discussing this issue with anyone who battles with depression.
> i would be interested to see these statistics and where they come from.
>
> in my opinion, it really isn't that easy to kill yourself through other means. there are times when, if i had access to a gun, i would have used it and i would be dead right now. i can say this with relative certainty and as someone who has previously attempted suicide.
>
> a huge amount of people kill themselves with guns. suicide is generally listed as 11th highest for cause of death in the USA (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa.php?cause_id=11). homicide is 15th.
> men complete suicide a lot more frequently than females, despite the fact that females attempt more than 3 times more frequently. men are more likely to use a gun.
>
> states with highest gun ownership per capita:
> Louisiana, Alaska, Montana, Tennessee, Alabama.
>
> States with highest suicides rates:
> Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, Nevada, New Mexico
>
> States with lowest gun ownership per capita:
> Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Jersey, New York
>
> States with lowest suicide rates:
> D.C., New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, Connecticut, Rhode Island
>
> no real definitive answers here, just interesting stats.
>
> i myself live in a state with very strict gun laws. i know, because at one time looked up getting one for suicidal reasons. if it had been easier to obtain, i doubt would be alive. i have a hard time believing this isn't the case for other people too.
>
> > Just for clarification, it is a proven fact
> > that suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders are
> > significantly lower in areas where there is a
> > high level of gun ownership. In areas where
> > there are few guns, suicides, crimes, thefts,
> > and murders skyrocket. Gun ownership tends to
> > ward off chaos and evil, as the founding
> > fathers knew. A murder is less likely to happen
> > when the potential murderer knows his target
> > also has a loaded gun.
>
Posted by bleauberry on January 27, 2010, at 18:28:23
In reply to DON'T BUY A GUN!!! - They make 'it' much easier » evenintherain, posted by detroitpistons on January 27, 2010, at 14:16:40
Thanks for sharing. I don't disagree or agree, but respect the differing opinions in light of the fact that every home is going to present a different environment, scenario of possibilities, risks, and benefits.
My personal opinion is that a gun does not make it any more likely or less likely that someone will commit suicide. A rope does just fine in the absence of a gun. Much less mess too, if they are at all concerned about family members cleaning up the mess. A car driven off the highway into a tree does the job and doesn't look like suicide. And it's free. A gun costs money. Or find the breaker box in the house and grab the main wire. It's ll over in the blink of an eye. Chug down a bottle of Tequila along with a few Xanax or Klonopin, and it's a gentle smooth way to drift away forever without any drama or mess.
The point is, if someone is going to commit suicide, a gun is not going to make it more easy or less easy. It is just another option among several already available.
That's how I see it anyway. I've seen three suicides in my life. None involved a gun despite easy access to one in the room they killed themselves in.
Ok, let's assume some law says no one with depression can keep their gun. The Constitution says otherwise. It is a right of being a citizen. But that's another story. Ok, no gun, they took it away. Does that mean that person is more likely to live? No. Like I said, a rope, an electrical outlet, a car, a bathtub, and drugs, even an overdose of Vodka for pete's sake...all just as easy as gun, some as rapid, and some smoother and painless.
My opinion, a gun makes no difference one way or the other.
Throughout life, nothing is fair and nothing is guaranteed. Everything is a risk versus benefit scenario. As I see it, the benefits of gun ownership far outweigh by a huge margin the risks.
A family member deciding to hide a gun owned by a suicidal depressed family member, well, they shouldn't be surprised to come home and find that person hanging from a rope.
> Excellent post, in my honest opinion....Its spot on and includes some really interesting and useful information. Thanks for posting, evenintherain.
>
> Regarding the post at the very bottom of evenintherain's post below (originally posted by bleauberry):
> I too would be interested to know where bleauberrys statistics came from. By the way, Im not trying to create an argument here or to offend, or to ruffle any feathers. My mind is open to many different possibilities. But regardless of all of that, the only relevant statistics are those related to suicides, as far as I'm concerned.
>
> In other words, and to clarify, my original post was specifically and solely intended to be about gun ownership AS IT RELATES TO THE POPULATION OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE A HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, ESPECIALLY THE ONES WHO HAVE MADE 1 OR MORE SUICIDE ATTEMPTS IN THE PAST (sry, not yelling, just can't use italics)...Im not taking any position whatsoever about gun rights, gun laws/ constitutional matters, nor did I ever intend to address that. The whole gun debate is really outside of the narrow scope of my original post. Simply put - Im just making a general statement that certain individuals with known mood disorders like my friend, yours truly, and probably a good majority of the people on this board, SHOULD NOT OWN A GUN. I think that this really comes down to individual choice. My hope is that these people choose NOT to own a gun. Maybe psychiatrists/ psychologists/ therapists should make it a point to spend a couple minutes discussing this issue with anyone who battles with depression.
>
>
>
>
> > i would be interested to see these statistics and where they come from.
> >
> > in my opinion, it really isn't that easy to kill yourself through other means. there are times when, if i had access to a gun, i would have used it and i would be dead right now. i can say this with relative certainty and as someone who has previously attempted suicide.
> >
> > a huge amount of people kill themselves with guns. suicide is generally listed as 11th highest for cause of death in the USA (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa.php?cause_id=11). homicide is 15th.
> > men complete suicide a lot more frequently than females, despite the fact that females attempt more than 3 times more frequently. men are more likely to use a gun.
> >
> > states with highest gun ownership per capita:
> > Louisiana, Alaska, Montana, Tennessee, Alabama.
> >
> > States with highest suicides rates:
> > Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, Nevada, New Mexico
> >
> > States with lowest gun ownership per capita:
> > Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Jersey, New York
> >
> > States with lowest suicide rates:
> > D.C., New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, Connecticut, Rhode Island
> >
> > no real definitive answers here, just interesting stats.
> >
> > i myself live in a state with very strict gun laws. i know, because at one time looked up getting one for suicidal reasons. if it had been easier to obtain, i doubt would be alive. i have a hard time believing this isn't the case for other people too.
> >
> > > Just for clarification, it is a proven fact
> > > that suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders are
> > > significantly lower in areas where there is a
> > > high level of gun ownership. In areas where
> > > there are few guns, suicides, crimes, thefts,
> > > and murders skyrocket. Gun ownership tends to
> > > ward off chaos and evil, as the founding
> > > fathers knew. A murder is less likely to happen
> > > when the potential murderer knows his target
> > > also has a loaded gun.
> >
>
>
Posted by bleauberry on January 27, 2010, at 19:00:01
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 5:00:52
This has been a great discussion and I enjoyed what everyone contributed.
Somewhere along the line however I missed my most important message. I meant to say it right at the beginning. Got too involved. Lost in the shuffle.
So here it is.
If anyone is in such a condition of suicidal risk, do one of two things:
1. Drive them personally to the emergency room.
2. Call 911.
3. If it is you yourself, don't try to be superman. Get to the hospital and tell them honestly you are fearing for you life. If you are too far gone to even drive to the hospital, pick up the nearest phone, dial 911, and say, "I think I want to kill myself." You'll be in safe hands within minutes.The gun thing is a nonfactor. Anyone that depressed should not be at home. The risk is too high, no matter what the actual killing tool is.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 27, 2010, at 19:25:07
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by bleauberry on January 27, 2010, at 19:00:01
BB,
This is an interesting thread. I have been at two scenes, razor and gun. And as I think about it, my husband lost two men in his family by self-inflicted gun shot.
Disclosure: guns damaged the quality of the world. I wish they had never been invented. If we could use discovery and technology for humane purposes, well, we'd all be leading different lives.
I intended to write something very different, more egalitarian, more tolerant. Guns make it easier to kill. Period.
My favorite authors had ingenious ways; rocks in the pocket while walking into water; hanging; poison; disembowelment; disappearing on a frozen night. Reminds me of Leonard Cohen's song, "who by fire".
What a world. I debate endlessly and without resolution w/ a family member over 'the right to bear arms' and what it really could mean to have a gun in the houses. I'm not a true pacifist--I do not have the strength that would take.
respectfully, and in the spirit of debate,
fb
This has been a great discussion and I enjoyed what everyone contributed.
>
> Somewhere along the line however I missed my most important message. I meant to say it right at the beginning. Got too involved. Lost in the shuffle.
>
> So here it is.
>
> If anyone is in such a condition of suicidal risk, do one of two things:
> 1. Drive them personally to the emergency room.
> 2. Call 911.
> 3. If it is you yourself, don't try to be superman. Get to the hospital and tell them honestly you are fearing for you life. If you are too far gone to even drive to the hospital, pick up the nearest phone, dial 911, and say, "I think I want to kill myself." You'll be in safe hands within minutes.
>
> The gun thing is a nonfactor. Anyone that depressed should not be at home. The risk is too high, no matter what the actual killing tool is.
Posted by detroitpistons on January 27, 2010, at 23:24:44
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! - They make 'it' much easier, posted by bleauberry on January 27, 2010, at 18:28:23
Bleau,
Agree to disagree. However, I think this is more than just a matter of personal opinion, so I feel compelled to respond further.
You had originally stated the following:
"Just for clarification, it is a proven fact that suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders are significantly lower in areas where there is a high level of gun ownership. In areas where there are few guns, suicides, crimes, thefts, and murders skyrocket. Gun ownership tends to ward off chaos and evil, as the founding fathers knew. A murder is less likely to happen when the potential murderer knows his target also has a loaded gun.
This is all kind of backwards from our first instinctual response, but it is statistical fact."
I think you are incorrect in proclaiming some of those statements above as "statistical fact." To the contrary, everything I have read seems to indicate the exact opposite. Nothing has been "proven" yet, more data is needed, and more research will be performed. Eventually, we'll be able to sort out the nuances of this statistical relationship and be able to paint a better picture and understand exactly how causation fits in, but that level of detail is a little beyond the scope of this discussion. For our purposes, I think the evidence that we already have about guns and suicide is overwhelmingly at odds with the statements made in your quote.
One thing is becoming increasingly clear: Individuals who own a gun are more likely to commit suicide than are other individuals, period. I feel comfortable in saying that this is much more of a "statistical fact" than is your claim. If you can find something that supports your claim, I'd love to see it.
Most of the data that do exist and the research studies seem to indicate a strong correlation between gun ownership and the likelihood of suicide. I have to admit, I'm a little short on time now, so I haven't yet researched this as thoroughly as I would have liked. Here are at least a couple things to consider:
- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17risk.html
- http://econweb.umd.edu/~duggan/guns-suic-final.pdfAlso, I think it's an oversimplification to say that everybody will just use a rope or take pills or drive their car into a wall. There's a lot more to it than that. You can't just assume that every single person in every situation will find a different option and execute it successfully. There are lots of scenarios and examples that prove this. Some people are just ignorant and they really don't know a good way to do it. There are millions of scenarios. Again, the data show that owning a gun does make suicide easier and more likely.
Regarding this: "As I see it, the benefits of gun ownership far outweigh by a huge margin the risks."
For a depressed person with prior suicide attempts? I seriously doubt that the benefits outweigh the risk for someone with that history. Remember, we're talking about a select population of people here who have mood disorders, not all of America. In order for the benefits of gun ownership to outweigh the risks for a depressive with past suicide attempts, that person would have to be living in a severely dangerous location, like in the middle of the Amazon surrounded by hungry crocodiles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for sharing. I don't disagree or agree, but respect the differing opinions in light of the fact that every home is going to present a different environment, scenario of possibilities, risks, and benefits.
>
> My personal opinion is that a gun does not make it any more likely or less likely that someone will commit suicide. A rope does just fine in the absence of a gun. Much less mess too, if they are at all concerned about family members cleaning up the mess. A car driven off the highway into a tree does the job and doesn't look like suicide. And it's free. A gun costs money. Or find the breaker box in the house and grab the main wire. It's ll over in the blink of an eye. Chug down a bottle of Tequila along with a few Xanax or Klonopin, and it's a gentle smooth way to drift away forever without any drama or mess.
>
> The point is, if someone is going to commit suicide, a gun is not going to make it more easy or less easy. It is just another option among several already available.
>
> That's how I see it anyway. I've seen three suicides in my life. None involved a gun despite easy access to one in the room they killed themselves in.
>
> Ok, let's assume some law says no one with depression can keep their gun. The Constitution says otherwise. It is a right of being a citizen. But that's another story. Ok, no gun, they took it away. Does that mean that person is more likely to live? No. Like I said, a rope, an electrical outlet, a car, a bathtub, and drugs, even an overdose of Vodka for pete's sake...all just as easy as gun, some as rapid, and some smoother and painless.
>
> My opinion, a gun makes no difference one way or the other.
>
> Throughout life, nothing is fair and nothing is guaranteed. Everything is a risk versus benefit scenario. As I see it, the benefits of gun ownership far outweigh by a huge margin the risks.
>
> A family member deciding to hide a gun owned by a suicidal depressed family member, well, they shouldn't be surprised to come home and find that person hanging from a rope.
Posted by evenintherain on January 28, 2010, at 3:26:11
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by floatingbridge on January 27, 2010, at 19:25:07
i also don't want to offend anyone, and i doubt anything i might say could change anyone's mind.
but this somehow struck a nerve and i thought i would comment: "a bottle of Tequila along with a few Xanax or Klonopin, and it's a gentle smooth way to drift away forever without any drama or mess."
that's not how it works. the human body is very resilient, it is not so easy to put down. people don't just gently fall asleep. if you poison yourself, your body will react. violently. you don't expect to die instantly (or at all, in most cases). you have to wait, probably in intense fear, for everything to kick in.
i think this fear is why a gun may be a favored method (over all the rest, the pluses and minuses of which i will not be going over here) by some people (results are speedy and irreversible, despite the numerous downsides).
anyway, i can't speak for anyone else, but i can certainly speak for myself when i say the potential benefits most certainly do not outweigh the risks of gun ownership, and the rational part of myself certainly hopes no one would let me get a hold of one.
Posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2010, at 17:14:39
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by floatingbridge on January 17, 2010, at 5:00:52
I don't have them at hand, but it was a magazine and two newspaper articles that did editorials on how neighborhoods with the highest gun ownership had dramatically lower crime levels. I guess the reasoning was that criminals were not the only ones that had guns, and thus they were neutralized from attempting crime in those neighborhoods. The gunless neighborhoods were the ones hit hard by crime. It was a sidenote, but suicide rates were also lower in the gun ownership neighborhoods.
We've all heard this saying before, but it deserves repeating once in a while...
People kill people (or self), guns don't kill people. The gun does absolutely nothing without the purposeful direction of a human being. It wasn't the gun's fault that the trigger got pulled.
Granted, for a very depressed person, a nearby gun makes it quick and easy.
My father used to work as a trauma surgeon and told stories of many people who shot themselves in the head, only to survive the rest of their lives blinded, paralyzed, or mentally retarded. So even with a gun, it isn't guaranteed.
No matter. If someone is that depressed and intervention does not occur, they will die at their own hand one way or another. Whether they have access to a gun or not will not significantly change the outcome.
I've never seen any studies or statistics on people who were attempting suicide, but didn't have a gun, and so aborted the suicide attempts. That would be interesting. My guess is those numbers would be very low. If they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 28, 2010, at 17:28:04
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2010, at 17:14:39
I know, BB. People kill people. It's true. However, don't you think guns make it a wee bit easier?
best,
fb
Posted by detroitpistons on January 28, 2010, at 18:16:40
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!!, posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2010, at 17:14:39
I want to respond to a couple points. I'll add my comments under each quoted section below.
>>>> I don't have them at hand, but it was a magazine and two newspaper articles that did editorials on how neighborhoods with the highest gun ownership had dramatically lower crime levels. I guess the reasoning was that criminals were not the only ones that had guns, and thus they were neutralized from attempting crime in those neighborhoods. The gunless neighborhoods were the ones hit hard by crime. It was a sidenote, but suicide rates were also lower in the gun ownership neighborhoods. <<<<
No offense, but a couple of editorials in magazines and newspapers do not science make. What you described about the content of these OPINION pieces completely flies in the face of the data and information gathered from numerous, real studies and statistics.
>>>> Granted, for a very depressed person, a nearby gun makes it quick and easy. <<<<
So you do think that it's a bad idea for a very depressed person to own or have access to a gun? Now we're getting somewhere.
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>>>> No matter. If someone is that depressed and intervention does not occur, they will die at their own hand one way or another. Whether they have access to a gun or not will not significantly change the outcome. <<<<This is simply not a true statement, to say the least. There is no evidence to support what you're saying as far as outcomes. Again, the evidence suggests the opposite.
Secondly, they will NOT necessarily die at their own hands one way or the other. Please stop saying that. You just can't make a bold statement like that as a matter of fact. It's a logical fallacy. Every single attempted failed suicide proves that they all will NOT "die at their own hand one way or another".
Statistics aside, isn't this just common sense? You're fighting an uphill battle trying to argue that it's perfectly OK for depressed people to own guns.
My friend tried slitting his wrists years ago. It didn't work. He didn't know what he was doing. The next morning, he went and bought rope and was going to hang himself. He was AWOL from the Army and he was in Canada. His family managed to track him down based on credit card transactions. His stepbrother found him sitting in the parking lot of his hotel in his car after he had returned from buying the rope. Clearly, in this case, the fact that he was unarmed saved his life. With a gun, he would've been dead.
Nobody's trying to say that guns are evil or that we should make laws to make it harder to buy guns or anything like that. I don't hate guns. I'm not against people owning guns.
It's a bad idea for people who are at risk of committing suicide to possess a gun!! How could anybody argue that? No matter what you want to believe, guns do make it easier to kill yourself! They are very effective for that purpose.
I don't know what else to say.
Posted by bleauberry on January 29, 2010, at 15:03:29
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » bleauberry, posted by detroitpistons on January 28, 2010, at 18:16:40
Hi, thanks for the feedback. Makes for interesting thought.
I do not think a severely depressed person should have access to a gun.
I see it here all the time when someone says, "Where's the evidence?" Come on. I read it months ago and I don't remember where. I just got home from work. I got dinner to cook and things to do. Am I really going to spend my entire evening doing a research project on guns to answer somebody's challenge for information? I don't think so. Somebody can do it themselves if it means that much to them. I'm just participating in a discussion of ideas.
For every time I am challenged for scientific documentation, the challenger does not offer any of their own. ??? People once in a while will ask, "Where's your proof?" Well, I return the question, "Where's yours?". When in reality, hard proof of anything mostly does not exist.
Editorials are, yeah, I'm always skeptical. Too much bias and flaw usually. And even with hard science, there is plenty of bias and flaw. Even our best clinical studies presented to FDA are chock full of bias and flaw. So going full circle back to the challenge for scientific data...no matter the source and no matter the side of the debate...skepticism is warranted.
But it does make for interesting discussion.
While a small percentage of guns will cause disaster, an overwhelming majority of them prevent disaster. That's my stance. Without gun ownership, there would be chaos. The founding fathers had divine wisdom in recognizing that people have the right to self defense. The mere suspicion that a particular neighborhood is well armed will send criminals to easier prey elsewhere.
But back to depression, it probably is not a good idea for a badly depressed person to have a gun nearby. They're probably going to do it anyway, but no sense in someone helping them by leaving a gun around.
If it is their own gun, well, that's a different story. No one has the right to take it away unless the depressed person approves or if it is demanded by a Judge.
Posted by detroitpistons on January 29, 2010, at 16:32:54
In reply to Re: DON'T BUY A GUN!!! » detroitpistons, posted by bleauberry on January 29, 2010, at 15:03:29
****I see it here all the time when someone says, "Where's the evidence?" Come on. I read it months ago and I don't remember where. I just got home from work. I got dinner to cook and things to do. Am I really going to spend my entire evening doing a research project on guns to answer somebody's challenge for information? I don't think so. Somebody can do it themselves if it means that much to them. I'm just participating in a discussion of ideas.****
First off, you made a bunch of pretty incredible claims about guns and crime and suicides. The burden of proof is on you, not me. Secondly, you're not "just participating in a discussion of ideas." This is a serious subject, and you're making assumptions and statements that are misleading or false. I'm sorry, but if you're making a wild claim about a serious subject that relates to life and death, then you should either take the time to do some research or you shouldn't post anything at all.
The only time I ever ask anyone to cite their sources or show me evidence, is when someone is making a wild or controversial or poorly supported claim. After I read your info. I immediately thought, "WOW, that is unbelievable," (especially the part about suicides being lower in areas with a more guns, etc) and so I was naturally very interested to find out the source of the information and read it for myself because it was opposite of everything I'd ever read. Anyhow, it doesn't take much research to figure out that guns and depression don't mix and that when people have guns, they are much more likely to commit suicide. I thought that was somewhat common knowledge, and also common sense...
****For every time I am challenged for scientific documentation, the challenger does not offer any of their own. ??? People once in a while will ask, "Where's your proof?" Well, I return the question, "Where's yours?". When in reality, hard proof of anything mostly does not exist.****
Again, the burden of proof isn't on me, but I did post a link to an article about a research study and I posted another link to a research paper. The information is out there. It's all over the place. On the other hand, I can't find anything to support what you're claiming. I'm sorry if I've come across as abrasive, but I want to make sure that this thread is accurate because this is important to me. As you know, my friend just killed himself with a gun, so this subject is especially sensitive to me right now.
****But back to depression, it probably is not a good idea for a badly depressed person to have a gun nearby. They're probably going to do it anyway, but no sense in someone helping them by leaving a gun around.****
So we agree on the first sentence. It's not a good idea for depressed people to have guns around. In your first couple posts though, I thought you were trying to say that it didn't matter.
As far as the "They're probably going to do it anyway" part, we have to agree to disagree on that. There's nothing left to be said. Again, there are so many examples...My Mom would be dead right now if she had a gun the day she tried to take her own life 10 years ago. Today, she's healthy and happy.
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