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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by bleauberry on March 21, 2009, at 11:44:59
In reply to Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 20, 2009, at 18:45:13
> Do you ever think that one's brain lowers the happy chemicals from time to time to help one get a better grasp of reality?
>
> LinkadgeNo.
I do believe however, for those that have faith in the words of the Bible, that God allows suffering in this lifetime as one of the only means to get us to turn to Him.
Posted by garnet71 on March 21, 2009, at 12:11:59
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by bleauberry on March 21, 2009, at 11:44:59
That's interesting too, Bleauberry. Also with Buddhism, desire/want is the source of all pain and suffering. This, for me anyway, could apply to such things outside of the material world.
It could pertain to concepts like the yearning for a normal/non-abusive childhood, a nuturing parent or spouse, to loathe the memory of a traumatic experience...instead of being thankful for what you have, harnessing the positive, and moving on. Total acceptance and even love of past situations.
My Muslim friend told me that one Islamic law dictates that you don't disrespect or be unthankful about your parents. He told me you accept it as it is, that it could always be worse, and you should appreciate your parents for bringing you into the world no matter what. I have tried to adopt this philosophy but still have trouble with it.
A Catholic friend, my boss who was there the day my father died and I got on a plane, noticed I barely shed a tear...maybe I had a look of calmness, serenity, releif, when my father passed away when I was 23. He told me you don't have to love someone for 'who' they are. Unconditionally, I suppose, is what he meant.
I always look back and feel sorry for my father, and empathisize with him, but didn't feel much when I found out he died. In fact, I was up all night the evening before he died with pain and numbness in my arms, couldn't sleep all night, which was not normal for me at the time. And when it was time to leave the hotel for work, I paused, sat on the bed with the door key in my hand, and just sat there for a few minutes all dressed and ready to go. Sat there and stared at the wall for no reason other than a feeling of weirdness. Moments later, my sister called with the news.
Posted by nicky847 on March 21, 2009, at 12:42:02
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » bleauberry, posted by garnet71 on March 21, 2009, at 12:11:59
my last bad bout of depression was 5 1/2 years ago...and i met my wife near the tail end of it, probably because one of the ways i treat my depression is to make an effort to interact with people more....i do think sometimes it is the body's only way of affecting change in your life, esp. for people who dont like change otherwise
Posted by linkadge on March 21, 2009, at 12:59:59
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by bleauberry on March 21, 2009, at 11:44:59
>No.
>I do believe however, for those that have faith >in the words of the Bible, that God allows >suffering in this lifetime as one of the only >means to get us to turn to Him.
I once thought that way. But then I realized, whether or not I was with 'him' (whoever he was), I was still had pretty much the same level of mysery in my life. And, would I really want to be with somebody who is going to make me suffer if I don't choose him - thats the definition of an abusive relaitonship.
Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on March 21, 2009, at 20:12:39
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 21, 2009, at 12:59:59
> >No.
>
> >I do believe however, for those that have faith >in the words of the Bible, that God allows >suffering in this lifetime as one of the only >means to get us to turn to Him.
>
> I once thought that way. But then I realized, whether or not I was with 'him' (whoever he was), I was still had pretty much the same level of mysery in my life. And, would I really want to be with somebody who is going to make me suffer if I don't choose him - thats the definition of an abusive relaitonship.
>
>
> Linkadge
>Well, this isn't the forum to discuss that. I didn't mean to take your thread off topic. But your comments have nothing to do with anything the Bible has to say. Those comments do not fit.
God does not "make" us suffer. That is Satan the devil doing that. Satan is the inventor of disease, pain, lies, and deceit. Thankfully, it is not that way forever. A time is coming. People who purposely turn away God on their own free will, well, would you welcome that person into your Kingdom?
But as I said, God takes the evil that Satan dishes out and turns it into good. Satan's idea is to get you so ill that you hate God. That's the plan. When you strive to be close to God and welcome Him, whether He gives you miraculous healing or not, you have won. Any man who walks through life of his own strength is but dust in the end. God did not promise us a rose garden in this life. But He did promise us an eternal one. Satan lies, deceives, and twists minds. God does not. Satan, as you see yourself, is a master at it.
But no, I do not think depression is any kind of bodily reset. It is a body that needs to be reset.
Posted by HyperFocus on March 21, 2009, at 20:16:43
In reply to Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 20, 2009, at 18:45:13
My depression causes a much worse distortion of reality than any 'happy chemicals' do. At any rate if all we have are perceptions of reality then it surely wouldn't make a difference what version of reality we experience - so may as well have the happy one.
I'm not religous so I don't think there's any higher reasoning or meaning for suffering. It's just bad luck that you were born with a predisposition for illness which matured when your environment facilitated it.
The only things good to come out of my depression:
1. I will be a better person and appreciate things more.
2. My kids won't have to go through what I did.
Posted by Elimino Pete on March 22, 2009, at 1:13:03
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 21, 2009, at 9:27:28
I understand your point and the analogy of the adrenaline surge in a fight or flight situation, linkadge. I really believe your idea makes some sense. It would certainly be worthy of investigation and could possibly be studied with the aid of today's imaging technologies (maybe it already has?). Humans are amazingly resilient and adaptive creatures. Just look at all of us, right? So many things regarding mental conditions are quick to be characterized as maladaptive. To the contrary, I believe a good many of these are actually quite adaptive at their core. That would seem to apply to observable behavior in addition to happy chemical activity in the brain. So yes I think you are beating around something that has TONS of merit. That you experience it subjectively only adds to its validity. Along the same lines, one could argue that the development of at least certain psychoses is adaptive and homeostatic. A person can be so unable to deal with reality that they must create another one in order to survive. It seems to me it technically could be argued that virtually everything that occurs within an organism is homeostatic. We get to that mind/body connection though, and it tends to throw our science for a loop. It's that age old problem of trying to study something using the same thing it is that we are studying. These are just humble opinions of a not always so smart guy like me. My best to you, linkadge!
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 7:17:59
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by bleauberry on March 21, 2009, at 20:12:39
Its all just *symantics*: The bottom line is: god created satan and if god is omnicient then he knew how satan was going to turn out even before he made him. In this sence, he chose to create this creature which would allow our suffereing. In other words, God is still responsible for our suffering.
Whatever way you look at it, god has presented us with (or if you prefer the term 'allowed') two options: "choose him or burn in hell".
It is at this point you respond with something like "well man can never fully understand the nature of god" or something...
Hey, I've read the bible too, besides confusing me with a bunch of contradiction, I'm not everly enlightened.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 8:24:54
In reply to Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 20, 2009, at 18:45:13
> Do you ever think that one's brain lowers the happy chemicals from time to time to help one get a better grasp of reality?
No.
I find the inverse to be true. My perception of reality and ability to function more effectively in it are greatly improved during periods of remission of biological depression.
I think of healthy depressions in the absence of affective disorder to be a mechanism by which a primate under extraordinary stress conserves energy and induces quiescence. I see that most healthy depression as a reaction to some sort of loss - whether it be a person, a job, a favorite tool, hopes and dreams, or anything else of importance to the individual.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 8:42:49
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by bleauberry on March 21, 2009, at 20:12:39
> God does not "make" us suffer. That is Satan the devil doing that.
I know this is a very important and sensitive topic to many people.
I would only suggest that there are spiritual alternatives within which suffering can occur in the absence of a demon or a universal force of evil.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 10:27:08
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 8:24:54
Yeah, thats a typical SLS responce.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 10:28:33
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 10:27:08
The above post was intended as responce to your first post.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 10:36:41
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 10:27:08
> > > Do you ever think that one's brain lowers the happy chemicals from time to time to help one get a better grasp of reality?
> > No.
> > I find the inverse to be true. My perception of reality and ability to function more effectively in it are greatly improved during periods of remission of biological depression.
> > I think of healthy depressions in the absence of affective disorder to be a mechanism by which a primate under extraordinary stress conserves energy and induces quiescence. I see that most healthy depression as a reaction to some sort of loss - whether it be a person, a job, a favorite tool, hopes and dreams, or anything else of importance to the individual.
> Yeah, thats a typical SLS responce.
Yes, it is, thank God.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 11:20:19
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 10:36:41
>Yes, it is, thank God.
You can thank him if you like.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 11:26:19
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 11:20:19
> >Yes, it is, thank God.
>
> You can thank him if you like.
>
> LinkadgeYou have no idea how many times I have thanked Him for the blessings that have allowed me to survive such a crushing illness while maintaining an optimistic outlook and an appreciation for all the joys and positive forces that this Universe has to offer. I have been blessed with positive energy.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 13:06:37
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 11:26:19
>You have no idea how many times I have thanked >Him for the blessings that have allowed me to >survive such a crushing illness while >maintaining an optimistic outlook and an >appreciation for all the joys and positive >forces that this Universe has to offer. I have >been blessed with positive energy.
I always find it interesting the types of things that people consider "gifts from God".
For example: "We are blessed by God in Canada to have all this wonderful clean drinking water".
But, the thoughful person then asks themself. Why would God bless this country with clean drinking water and yet give another countries disease infested refuse potty water to feed to their children till they end up getting sick and dying?
For every blessing that you think God has given you, there is another person (who is logically as diserving as you of the same blessing) yet is left without.
Most people create an image of God in their mind which is not entirely logical. God, you see, is a neural construct by some indivudals to believe that there is something or someone responsible for the good things. Perhaps it makes them feel in control of their lives.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 13:07:34
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 13:06:37
Some people need a little more temporal lobe grey matter.
Linkadge
Posted by sam K on March 22, 2009, at 13:50:53
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 13:06:37
even if another country has bad water, they still might have something else wonderful canada doesnt have. theres something good about everything mostly. some things just suck
Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 13:55:31
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 13:06:37
> >You have no idea how many times I have thanked >Him for the blessings that have allowed me to >survive such a crushing illness while >maintaining an optimistic outlook and an >appreciation for all the joys and positive >forces that this Universe has to offer. I have >been blessed with positive energy.
> I always find it interesting the types of things that people consider "gifts from God".
Yes. It is interesting the types of things that some people take for granted.
> For example: "We are blessed by God in Canada to have all this wonderful clean drinking water".
> But, the thoughful person then asks themself.
Yes. I am a thoughtful person. And I, too, have often asked:
> Why would God bless this country with clean drinking water and yet give another countries disease infested refuse potty water to feed to their children till they end up getting sick and dying?
I have found an answer to this dilemma that is routed outside the Western religions' concepts of God.
That God is, does not necessarily prevent nor justify trajedy. That is why I try to take nothing for granted. The more things that I deem are gifts, the wealthier I become.
> For every blessing that you think God has given you, there is another person (who is logically as diserving as you of the same blessing) yet is left without.
This is a Western concept. To me, it seems linear and bipolar. I find it more productive to think of things in terms of matrices.
> Most people create an image of God in their mind which is not entirely logical.
According to whom?
It seems illogical to me that one can fathom existence without God.
> God, you see, is a neural construct by some indivudals
As are all semantic representations that evolve from the human mind.
> to believe that there is something or someone responsible for the good things. Perhaps it makes them feel in control of their lives.
Any positive control that I have in my life is a gift and another blessing. It is a personal achievement. Thankfully, I have achieved much, despite depression. For this, I am grateful and indeed blessed.
I am usually quite happy, even in the presence of depression. If this is a sickness, may I never recover...
- Scott
Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 13:58:39
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by sam K on March 22, 2009, at 13:50:53
> theres something good about everything mostly. some things just suck
Yes!
You get it.
I hope I may use this as a quote from time to time.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 15:17:38
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by sam K on March 22, 2009, at 13:50:53
>some things just suck
Thats exactly my point. Some people are born into misery, they live in misery and they die in misery.
Some people see their blessings as gifts from god. I just see that there are lucky people and less lucky people.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 15:24:27
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 13:55:31
>I have found an answer to this dilemma that is >routed outside the Western religions' concepts >of God.
>That God is, does not necessarily prevent nor >justify trajedy. That is why I try to take >nothing for granted. The more things that I deem >are gifts, the wealthier I become.
Ok, whatever
>This is a Western concept. To me, it seems >linear and bipolar. I find it more productive to >think of things in terms of matrices.Ok, whatever
>> Most people create an image of God in their >>mind which is not entirely logical.>According to whom?
According to simple observations about the nature of the world around us.
>It seems illogical to me that one can fathom >existence without God.
Clinical depression can be an existence without God.
>I am usually quite happy, even in the presence >of depression. If this is a sickness, may I >never recover...Ok, whatever. I am remembering again why this board is a waste of my time.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 15:30:30
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » sam K, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 13:58:39
>> theres something good about everything mostly. >some things just suck
>Yes!
>You get it.
SLS, I love the way you try to rope other people onto your side of the argument without providing any form of justification. SAM made the point that "some things just suck". Unfortunately, those "some things" happen to be people's lives.If you choose to believe in a God who randomly blesses some people and destines others to an eternity of mysery go right ahead. Well, perhaps you don't see it that way. To be honest, I really don't care how you see it because it's not as if you are about to lay it out clear for any of us.
Linkadge
Posted by raisinb on March 22, 2009, at 15:36:06
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 15:30:30
To see/create larger meaning in life or experience.
To quote Deitrich Bonhoeffer: "There is no such thing as a nonreligious man," i.e., there is no man who does not believe in something larger than himself that creates meaning to his life.
We could see depression as the loss of this ability to create meaning.
From my point of view, it does not matter whether God or any other religious being does or does not exist. What does matter is an individual's ability to achieve hope and a meaningful narrative of the trials and beauty of his life. Religion can serve this need for some, but it doesn't have to be that.
Posted by SLS on March 23, 2009, at 7:13:42
In reply to it is a human need, posted by raisinb on March 22, 2009, at 15:36:06
> We could see depression as the loss of this ability to create meaning.
Depression can crush spirituality. Spirituality is one of the many casualties of this disease.
> What does matter is an individual's ability to achieve hope
My spirituality, along with a bit of logic, is what allowed me to have hope for 25 years of treatment failures while being severely depressed.
> and a meaningful narrative of the trials and beauty of his life.
That's an interesting way to describe it - "narrative".
I do think like that sometimes when reflecting on my life - past, present, and future. I hadn't recognized that I was narrating at times. Thanks for the insight.
- Scott
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