![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by JadeKelly on January 28, 2009, at 12:22:28
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
> Hi,
>
> I have taken SSRI-drugs for more than 10 years. During this time I have also worked with several different therapists as well as courses in personal development and meditations. (I have also tried quit using the medication twice with no success)
>
> Last fall I fell into one of my deepest depressions ever. I have been given a combination of SSRI-drug (Seroxat) and one named Mirtazapine.
>
> I don't get any better (have had severe suicidal thoughts for several months) and I have started to believe that the drugs might block my recovery.
>
> The therapist that I am currently working with (specializes in EFT - Emotional Freedom Tecnique) have put forward a hypothesis that my long use of anti-depressive might in fact block any progress and being contra-productive.
>
> My question is therefore - do you know about other cases where anti-depressives is known to have had a negative effect if taken over such a long time that I have taken them?
>
>
> //Indigodaniel
>Hello Indigodaniel,
My depression began rather abruptly based on situational episodes that my brain (emotions) simply couldn't handle. It snowballed into complete numbness and apathy. After 3 months on an antidepressant that allowed me to feel my feelings again, I'm just now starting therapy. And for the first time I feel ready.
For me, it would have been mostly a waste of my time and the therapists to have started sooner. Some would disagree but when you are so shut down that talking would not be helpful, whats the point (again, for me).
You may be very different, but I wonder if Scott has a point in that if you could get some result from your medication treatment, that may pave the way for a more productive outcome with your therapist. I don't know you so its hard to say but you may want to give that some thought.
So in answer to your question, I know plenty of people who have been on long term anti-depressants and stay on them because they work, or switch occasionally because they stop working.
I haven't noticed a negative effect in any of them, but most have gotten relief for good periods of time, making therapy a useful tool in getting well.I hope that makes sense and helps!
Good Luck to you,~Jade
PS-There may be a reason those SSri's are no longer helping you. If you were to run a thread regarding that, there are some very smart people here that may have some good ideas to run by your PDoc.
Posted by antigua3 on January 28, 2009, at 12:27:06
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by Garnet71 on January 28, 2009, at 11:27:58
I may be jumping in w/something that isn't really what you're talking about in this thread, but you bring something up for me.
I've been in therapy for many years. I've also suffered from several bouts of severe depression during those years, which I've gone on medication to alleviate the symptoms so that I could "supposedly" work with my therapy. But, I've found that the SSRIs blunted my emotions and made working on my issues even more difficult because I was unable to access my feelings as well. I think this has prolonged my healing immensely, although I do understand the need for me to have gone on those medications.
I believe that therapy can cause depression. Maybe I don't mean it in quite that way, but therapy can bring forth such emotional things and a downward spiral that has required medication for me. I have PTSD and there were roads I could never have travled in my therapy w/o the support of medication.
But... w/o the medication, I can actually "feel" things, which has helped me make a lot of progress in therapy, in a quicker albeit more painful way.
I don't know how it really works. I know I have cycles of depression and while I'm not depressed now, I know that at some point in my future life, it will hit again and I will have to deal with it.
antigua
Posted by JadeKelly on January 28, 2009, at 12:51:40
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » Garnet71, posted by antigua3 on January 28, 2009, at 12:27:06
> I may be jumping in w/something that isn't really what you're talking about in this thread, but you bring something up for me.
>
> I've been in therapy for many years. I've also suffered from several bouts of severe depression during those years, which I've gone on medication to alleviate the symptoms so that I could "supposedly" work with my therapy. But, I've found that the SSRIs blunted my emotions and made working on my issues even more difficult because I was unable to access my feelings as well. I think this has prolonged my healing immensely, although I do understand the need for me to have gone on those medications.
>
> I believe that therapy can cause depression. Maybe I don't mean it in quite that way, but therapy can bring forth such emotional things and a downward spiral that has required medication for me. I have PTSD and there were roads I could never have travled in my therapy w/o the support of medication.
>
> But... w/o the medication, I can actually "feel" things, which has helped me make a lot of progress in therapy, in a quicker albeit more painful way.
>
> I don't know how it really works. I know I have cycles of depression and while I'm not depressed now, I know that at some point in my future life, it will hit again and I will have to deal with it.
> antigua
>
>Hi antigua,
I actually think we're really saying the same thing though. I think the point being if you are emotionally shut down, I mean numb, and you can undo some of that, whether it be by starting OR stopping a certain medication, it seems to me therapy would be more productive.
My current medication treatment (not an SSRI) has allowed me to feel what I need to feel. I do actually believe that had I gone into therapy before being treated biologically for my depression, I may have had some kind of breakdown. I'm not looking forward to therapy, it will be painful, but I'm ready and its necessary.
~Jade
Posted by antigua3 on January 28, 2009, at 13:06:12
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » antigua3, posted by JadeKelly on January 28, 2009, at 12:51:40
OK, I see what you're saying. I've found that medication has helped and hurt my therapy, but it has been necessary. I needed the drugs to blunt my feelings enough so that I could travel down difficult paths, and once I reached some difficult places, the medication helped me handle it better. But, when I'm at the most difficult junctures (and how do I know what those really are; I'm probably full of it, thinking I know these things), I've made greater progress being off the meds and being able to feel.
It's like a juggling act. I need the meds to get there, but I need to be off of them sometimes to go deeper. But I wouldn't have gotten there w/o the meds to relieve the depression that these feelings have caused.
I don't know. I'm probably wrong. It's probably a lot more biological than I want to admit. And I certainly understand you saying that you need to be stabilized before you are strong enough to begin the therapy.
Wishing you the best of luck,
antigua
Posted by Cseagraves on January 28, 2009, at 13:40:25
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
Dear Indigo,
If you look above you will find a thread called "Long term SSRI use has destabilized me" posted by "New Questions". These posts might help you with your question.
As you can see when you read these post that alot of people are feeling that ssri's might be causing more damage than good.
I feel in my case, they have.
Courtney
Posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 13:53:03
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by Cseagraves on January 28, 2009, at 13:40:25
Hi Courtney.
> As you can see when you read these post that alot of people are feeling that ssri's might be causing more damage than good.
>
> I feel in my case, they have.
In what ways have SSRIs damaged you?
- Scott
Posted by JadeKelly on January 28, 2009, at 14:25:26
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » JadeKelly, posted by antigua3 on January 28, 2009, at 13:06:12
> OK, I see what you're saying. I've found that medication has helped and hurt my therapy, but it has been necessary. I needed the drugs to blunt my feelings enough so that I could travel down difficult paths, and once I reached some difficult places, the medication helped me handle it better. But, when I'm at the most difficult junctures (and how do I know what those really are; I'm probably full of it, thinking I know these things), I've made greater progress being off the meds and being able to feel.
>
> It's like a juggling act. I need the meds to get there, but I need to be off of them sometimes to go deeper. But I wouldn't have gotten there w/o the meds to relieve the depression that these feelings have caused.
>
> I don't know. I'm probably wrong. It's probably a lot more biological than I want to admit. And I certainly understand you saying that you need to be stabilized before you are strong enough to begin the therapy.
>
> Wishing you the best of luck,
> antiguaHi antigua,
Don't know if you'll get this but first, I want to apologize. I reread your post and was unaware you were suffering from PTSD. I really feel it was wrong for me to try and understand what treatment would or wouldn't be best for someone with your diagnosis. And I'm sorry you suffered whatever you did.
Second, my symptoms of complete shutdown were well into place before I started treatment, so we have a difference there as well.
It seems to me its all so individual, my cognitive skills were crap while I was depressed, I'm still dealing with that, ha. And we're to go get the best care while in that condition.
Its all very difficult but doable. I think it just takes longer for us to figure it out when in a diminished state of mind.
I hope you get this and good luck to you ;-)
~Jade
Posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2009, at 17:12:22
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
SLS has a lot of wisdom. Check his posts again. I would emphasize the general notion/opinion that SSRIs are rather limited and not dependable longterm. It does represent a rather conservative and primitive treatment protocol to use just them. Mirtazapine was a reasonable option but didn't work right. That's ok. There is still Nortriptyline, Cymbalta, Desipramine, Nardil, Parnate, Marplan, Abilify, Zyprexa, Ritalin, Lamictal. Not sure if Effexor was one you tried or not. It is unique in its power. Lexapro too, even though it is an ssri, seems to change its personality in a very good way when combined with risperdal or abilify.
More than likely it would be a combination of 2 or 3 of those that you really need to be your best, not a simple limited ssri thing.
I do not think any amount of psychological warfare, regardless of how talented it is, will fix a biochemical problem. You kind of have to instinctively decide whether your symptoms are psychologically based, biologically based, or a mix of both.
Some people who are mercury toxic from amalgams are told to go to psychotherapy for their depression. I tell you what, no amount of talking or EFT or massage or anything is going to get that mercury out of the cells. It is a biological thing that needs a biological treatment. It's kind of the same with biologically caused depression.
Psychological therapy helps in terms of understanding it all and learning coping techniques that make it less overwhelming. It helps make the burden feel lighter, but does not make the burden go away.
Posted by antigua3 on January 29, 2009, at 11:01:01
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » antigua3, posted by JadeKelly on January 28, 2009, at 14:25:26
Absolutely no need to apologize. You didn't say a thing that offended me.
I understand where you're coming from and wish you the very best. If I can ever be of help, please don't hesitate to let me know.
antigua
Posted by Jadekelly on January 29, 2009, at 13:12:19
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » JadeKelly, posted by antigua3 on January 29, 2009, at 11:01:01
Posted by Indigodaniel on January 29, 2009, at 15:01:06
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by Garnet71 on January 28, 2009, at 11:21:26
interesting concept indigo child. I have honestly never come across it before but will certainly look into it.
When it comes to EFT I will continue working with it and hope that it will help me together with changed medication.
id
Posted by Indigodaniel on January 29, 2009, at 15:17:34
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 11:24:13
Scott, thanks for sharing of your experience. It has given me some valuable insights.
Posted by garnet71 on January 29, 2009, at 19:57:55
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by Indigodaniel on January 29, 2009, at 15:01:06
> interesting concept indigo child. I have honestly never come across it before but will certainly look into it.
>
> When it comes to EFT I will continue working with it and hope that it will help me together with changed medication.
>
> id--------------
okay, well indigo is one of my favorite colors - I wasn't sure if you were referring to a color or a concept. The names we choose for our avatars are interesting. :)
Posted by NewQuestions on February 3, 2009, at 8:39:55
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
Scott--Can you post your drug history, problems and successes?
Posted by SLS on February 3, 2009, at 9:29:14
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives--SLS, posted by NewQuestions on February 3, 2009, at 8:39:55
> Scott--Can you post your drug history, problems and successes?
That's a TALL order. Give me a little time to organize my thoughts.
I guess to start off with, I cannot think of more than a handful of antidepressants and mood stabilizers that I have not tried. These include:
maprotiline
citalopram
doxepin
phenytoinHere is the list of things I have tried, but not the combinations. Some of these drugs are hypnotics or anxiolytics.
--------------------------------------------
adinazolam
alprazolam
amitriptyline
amoxapine
aripiprazole
bromocriptine
bupropion
carbamazepine
chloral hydrate
chlorpromazine
clomipramine
clonazepam
clorgyline
d-amphetamine
desipramine
doxycycline
escitalopram
fluoxetine
fluphenazine
gabapentin
idazoxan
imipramine
indalpine
isocarboxezid
lamotrigine
levitiracetam
lithium
lorazepam
methylphenadate
mifepristone
mirtazapine
moclobemide
modafinil
nomifensine
nortriptyline
olanzapine
paroxetine
pemoline
perphanazine
phenelzine
PKU-8059
pregabalin
protriptyline
quetiapine
reboxetine
risperidone
selegiline
sulpiride
triiodothyronine T3
thyroxine T4
temazepam
thioridazine
topiramate
tranylcypromine
trazodone
triazolam
trimipramine
valproate
venlafaxine
viqualine
ziprasidone-------------------------------------------------
- Scott
Posted by NewQuestions on February 3, 2009, at 13:13:34
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives--SLS » NewQuestions, posted by SLS on February 3, 2009, at 9:29:14
Can you look at my prior posts and comment? Can you relate? Did you find anything that worked for a while, and then stopped working, or have you found difficulty finding the right drug to begin with?
Posted by 49er on February 3, 2009, at 17:18:37
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
Hi,
As one who is slowly tapering off of meds due to horrific side effects, I have a different viewpoint that may not be popular on these boards. But that hasn't stopped me previously:)
I personally feel that long term use of psych meds can cause serious side effects. I am suffering from a hearing loss, tinnitus, and some cognitive issues.
Joseph Glenmullen, a psychiatrist who is not antimeds, has also raised this possibility.
I won't comment on your therapist's theory but let me say this. Withdrawing too fast from meds or cold turkeying can also cause suicidal ideation. I was cold turkeyed off of Prozac many years ago and the suicidal ideation lasted for months.
Also, many psych meds have suicidal ideation as a side effect. I know, everyone says the risk is miniscule. But keep in mind that side effects are greatly underreported. It is estimate that only 1 to 10% of adverse affects are reported to the FDA in the US.
If you do decide to taper, I would do it very slowly. Ten percent of the current dose every 3 to 6 weeks. This is not very popular with psychiatrists and when I have mentioned this on boards, a certain psychiatrist tells me it won't work. Well, many people are proving otherwise and tapering slowly is alot safer.
By the way, I have suffered insomnia as a withdrawal symptom from Remeron. But if I had tapered at the rate my psychiatrist wanted me taper at, I would have been in alot worse shape.
I have been able to taper in spite of dealing with a family death and job instability. It hasn't been easy but feeling like a human being again is all the motivation I need.
Also, while my hearing hasn't returned to normal, it certainly has improved.
If you're interesting in tapering slowly send me a private message. This goes for anybody. I have nothing to sell.
Good luck with your decision.
49er
> Hi,
>
> I have taken SSRI-drugs for more than 10 years. During this time I have also worked with several different therapists as well as courses in personal development and meditations. (I have also tried quit using the medication twice with no success)
>
> Last fall I fell into one of my deepest depressions ever. I have been given a combination of SSRI-drug (Seroxat) and one named Mirtazapine.
>
> I don't get any better (have had severe suicidal thoughts for several months) and I have started to believe that the drugs might block my recovery.
>
> The therapist that I am currently working with (specializes in EFT - Emotional Freedom Tecnique) have put forward a hypothesis that my long use of anti-depressive might in fact block any progress and being contra-productive.
>
> My question is therefore - do you know about other cases where anti-depressives is known to have had a negative effect if taken over such a long time that I have taken them?
>
>
> //Indigodaniel
>
Posted by garnet71 on February 4, 2009, at 22:49:25
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives--SLS » NewQuestions, posted by SLS on February 3, 2009, at 9:29:14
That list is daunting.
I've never even heard of hypnotics. Sometimes I wonder, Scott, if your medical problems are a result of taking all of these medications, in addition to the ECT you spoke of in another post?
Posted by SLS on February 5, 2009, at 2:05:32
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives--SLS » SLS, posted by garnet71 on February 4, 2009, at 22:49:25
> That list is daunting.
>
> I've never even heard of hypnotics. Sometimes I wonder, Scott, if your medical problems are a result of taking all of these medications, in addition to the ECT you spoke of in another post?Which medical problems?
- Scott
Posted by garnet71 on February 5, 2009, at 23:19:49
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives--SLS » garnet71, posted by SLS on February 5, 2009, at 2:05:32
> > That list is daunting.
> >
> > I've never even heard of hypnotics. Sometimes I wonder, Scott, if your medical problems are a result of taking all of these medications, in addition to the ECT you spoke of in another post?
>
> Which medical problems?
>
>
> - Scott*****************
The one that prevents you from functioning to your full capacity.
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 5:10:21
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives--SLS » SLS, posted by garnet71 on February 5, 2009, at 23:19:49
> > > That list is daunting.
> > >
> > > I've never even heard of hypnotics. Sometimes I wonder, Scott, if your medical problems are a result of taking all of these medications, in addition to the ECT you spoke of in another post?
> >
> > Which medical problems?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> *****************
>
> The one that prevents you from functioning to your full capacity.
I think I understand your logic here. I had a medical problem only AFTER I took drugs.It was my life's ambition as a child to take antidepressants, although I was perfectly healthy. I was obsessed with wanting to experience the side effects of these drugs that we have all come to know and love. I proceeded to fool the entire diagnostic team at Columbia University by feigning ultra-rapid-cycling bipolar disorder just to get my hands on some. Thank God I got what I wanted from these professionals. I couldn't have gotten sick without them.
Don't wonder too much about me. I'm not worth it.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on February 6, 2009, at 6:11:26
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives--SLS, posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 5:10:21
Scott,Why the sarcasm as Garnett raised perfectly legitimate points and wasn't disrespectful to you?
So are you saying that psych meds are completely side effect free and cause no problems? I don't think you are but that is the way you are coming across.
By the way, when I thought that psych meds were wonderful, anybody who wrote posts like the ones I write on these board would incur my wrath. I wouldn't respond unless I was respectful but silently, I seethed. I just didn't want to believe that my beloved psych meds could be the source of my problems.
Even when I connected the use of Remeron to my hearing loss, I still didn't taper right away as that is how spellbound these meds had me. It was only when I started tapering that I realized how wrong I was.
Anyway, as one who always respected your points of view even though I vehemently disagree with you, I am disappointed in this type of post.
> > The one that prevents you from functioning to your full capacity.
>
>
> I think I understand your logic here. I had a medical problem only AFTER I took drugs.
>
> It was my life's ambition as a child to take antidepressants, although I was perfectly healthy. I was obsessed with wanting to experience the side effects of these drugs that we have all come to know and love. I proceeded to fool the entire diagnostic team at Columbia University by feigning ultra-rapid-cycling bipolar disorder just to get my hands on some. Thank God I got what I wanted from these professionals. I couldn't have gotten sick without them.
>
> Don't wonder too much about me. I'm not worth it.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 6:43:49
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives--SLS, posted by 49er on February 6, 2009, at 6:11:26
>
> Scott,
>
> Why the sarcasm as Garnett raised perfectly legitimate points and wasn't disrespectful to you?Yes, you are right. I get defensive when people say things like that to me, as I have heard it for decades. I will apologize.
Thanks for keeping me in line. I appreciate it.
I hope I don't come across as saying that psychiatric medications are without side effects and other undesirable traits. Unfortunately, for some conditions, they are the best we have to work with.
Thanks again.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 6:47:13
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives--SLS » SLS, posted by garnet71 on February 4, 2009, at 22:49:25
I apologize, Garnet, for being sarcastic.
As I said to 49er, I get defensive when people say things like that to me, as I have heard it all for decades. That's all.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 6:58:04
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives--SLS, posted by 49er on February 6, 2009, at 6:11:26
> ...even though I vehemently disagree with you.
Damn. I thought I was more persuasive than that. Charm alone should be worth something (yeah, right).
:-)
- Scott
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.