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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 8:21:33
asdf
Posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 8:33:45
In reply to 'Side effect' is a stupid term., posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 8:21:33
[Sorry about the last one, I misunderstood the posting software, somehow.]
I've just worked out what's been bugging me about drug packet leaflets:
Consider the following three side effects:
(i) Causes increased sweating.
(ii) Causes suicide.
(iii) (e.g. with edronax) Causes nausea.The first is something that is just part of using a drug, happens to everybody, and YOU JUST HAVE TO LUMP IT. The second happens to very few users of a drug, is intolerable, and IS GROUNDS FOR DISCONTINUATION OF THE DRUG. The third is TEMPORARY, and goes away after a week.
I will admit that there is no firm dividing line between (i) and (ii), but anything that kills you or renders you non-functional definitely belongs to (ii).
Yet these very different categories of things are all conflated as "side effects", even on some pages in psycho-babble. This isn't helpful.
--
Onestone.
Posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2009, at 11:54:14
In reply to Re: 'Side effect' is a stupid term., posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 8:33:45
Sorry don't follow your line of thinking. To me a side effect is something that may or may not happen if you take a med. Phillipa
Posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 12:31:39
In reply to Re: 'Side effect' is a stupid term. » Onestone, posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2009, at 11:54:14
> Sorry don't follow your line of thinking. To me a side effect is something that may or may not happen if you take a med. Phillipa
Yes, but some side effects you're expected just put up with or deal with, sort of "intended" side-effects, like constipation (which is listed on the velafaxine leaflet). with others, it's "for help's sake, get him down to the casualty department right away!", like acute allergic reaction (also on the venlafaxine leaflet).
I think it's a difference in kind, not one of degree.
I would expect the leaflet to make clear the difference between "sorry, you're going to have to put up with this" and "if this happens, stop taking the pill straight away."
If the edronax leaflet had listed nausea as "very common, but goes away after a week to ten days" rather than just saying "nausea", I probably wouldn't have stopped taking it, and then restarted after speaking to my psych.
--
Onestone.
Posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2009, at 12:37:04
In reply to Re: 'Side effect' is a stupid term. » Phillipa, posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 12:31:39
Follow you now so leaflets should be rewritten? Good idea. But if read on don't most say side effects may be temporary? Love Phillipa
Posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 13:18:38
In reply to Re: 'Side effect' is a stupid term. » Onestone, posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2009, at 12:37:04
> Follow you now so leaflets should be rewritten? Good idea. But if read on don't most say side effects may be temporary? Love Phillipa
The edronax one doesn't. It isn't an English language version, though. (I live on continental Europe. ;-)
The venlafaxine one (also not in English) says, in best politicians' style: "Side effects appear mostly at the start of treatment and with higher dosage". Is that the same as saying that side effects can be temporary? I suppose it _might_ be, but it reads as though they're scared of committing themselves to anything definite.
It would also be nice if one didn't need a magnifying glass to read them with. ;-)
--
Onestone.
Posted by Sigismund on January 20, 2009, at 16:54:52
In reply to Re: 'Side effect' is a stupid term., posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 8:33:45
Side effect is an ideological term.
Posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 17:23:10
In reply to Re: 'Side effect' is a stupid term., posted by Sigismund on January 20, 2009, at 16:54:52
> Side effect is an ideological term.
Hi, Sigismund, that's brilliant! It even made me laugh a bit (and it takes quite something to do that).
Shall we shift this over to the politics or philosophy (is there one?) board? ;-)
--
Onestone.
Posted by yxibow on January 21, 2009, at 3:01:31
In reply to Re: 'Side effect' is a stupid term. » Sigismund, posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 17:23:10
I hate to say it, but yes to be really crass, it is put up or shut up sometimes.
I have to put up with a lot of side effects, possible some permanent effects of medication that I have taken or am currently taking at the moment.
I know I cannot discontinue a medication at the moment that is keeping me at least somewhat functional for a disorder that is so complicated that nobody on this planet has it. It can be searched on here and I've never encountered anyone with my cluster of symptoms.
So I feel alone. What should I do? Not take medications that could do nasty things to me or possibly fall to the level where I feel like a confused child and be completely suicidal again more than I already feel lost and lonely alot? Its a complete catch-22 with at least two medications I take, out of the panoply of them.
I don't like to take them, I do, I know what they did, but what am I to do when there is no MAGIC BULLET for what I have and frankly there isn't any magic bullet for anyone. Yet. Maybe we will have genetically tailored drugs and agents this century. Some day stem cell research might turn up something really good.There are really good solutions and sometimes a scenario where you have to weigh the consequences of taking medication or putting up with a disorder.
This includes chemotherapy, brain, heart, gum surgery, etc.The list goes on, but ultimately you either chose to take a course that may have a risk or choose to live with something that may be a detriment but you prefer not to deal with it in a certain way because you have a perfectly good reason of your own that you wish to follow.
E.g. chemotherapy and nausea or spending what valuable time you have in this thing called life which we all pass through, with your family and friends because the risks and hospitalization are too much to bear.
-- just my 2c-- Jay
Posted by fayeroe on January 21, 2009, at 20:02:45
In reply to call it what you want...., posted by yxibow on January 21, 2009, at 3:01:31
Jay, I agree with you. I'd really rather be med free, but I cannot not take what is helping me enough to survive life.
Take care, friend. Pat
Posted by jflange on January 23, 2009, at 12:16:15
In reply to Re: call it what you want...., posted by fayeroe on January 21, 2009, at 20:02:45
Side-effect is simply the "unmarketable" effect that the drug has.
And yes, the idea that suicide and a rash can be included in the same category of "side effect" is truly absurd.
jflange
Posted by Sigismund on January 23, 2009, at 14:49:21
In reply to call it what you want...., posted by yxibow on January 21, 2009, at 3:01:31
My opinion wasn't asked, but I thought I'd give it anyway.
If there was a drug I thought was OK I'd put up with all sorts of bad effects without too much complaint.
My complaint is that I have not come across such a drug.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 23, 2009, at 16:45:12
In reply to Re: 'Side effect' is a stupid term. » Phillipa, posted by Onestone on January 20, 2009, at 12:31:39
> I would expect the leaflet to make clear the difference between "sorry, you're going to have to put up with this" and "if this happens, stop taking the pill straight away."
I obviously can't speak to the consumer information you've received with your meds, but I've always seen side effects/other effects ranked by seriousness by grouping them with phrases such as the following:
If any of these effects occur, tell your doctor or pharmacist at your next visit...
If any of these effects persist or worsen, notify your doctor or pharmacist promptly...
Tell your doctor immediately if any of these unlikely but serious side effects occur...
Tell your doctor immediately if any of these highly unlikely but very serious side effects occur...
Seek immediate medical attention if you develop some of the following symptoms...Lar
Posted by Onestone on January 23, 2009, at 16:45:15
In reply to Re: call it what you want.... » yxibow, posted by Sigismund on January 23, 2009, at 14:49:21
> My opinion wasn't asked, but I thought I'd give it anyway.
>
> If there was a drug I thought was OK I'd put up with all sorts of bad effects without too much complaint.
>
> My complaint is that I have not come across such a drug.I'm still an an early stage of drug exploration. I only started ~12 years ago. Actually, I gave up on drugs ~10 years ago on the conviction that what I really needed was psychotherapy. Now I'm convinced I needed both then, and I need a drug now.
An OK drug to me is one where the positive effects exceed the negative. Of the several I've tried, only St. John's wort belongs to that category. What I need is definitely one without a prominent serotonin "enhancing" effect.
Posted by Onestone on January 23, 2009, at 16:50:32
In reply to Re: 'Side effect' is a stupid term. » Onestone, posted by Larry Hoover on January 23, 2009, at 16:45:12
> > I would expect the leaflet to make clear the difference between "sorry, you're going to have to put up with this" and "if this happens, stop taking the pill straight away."
>
> I obviously can't speak to the consumer information you've received with your meds, but I've always seen side effects/other effects ranked by seriousness by grouping them with phrases such as the following:
>
> If any of these effects occur, tell your doctor or pharmacist at your next visit...
> If any of these effects persist or worsen, notify your doctor or pharmacist promptly...
> Tell your doctor immediately if any of these unlikely but serious side effects occur...
> Tell your doctor immediately if any of these highly unlikely but very serious side effects occur...
> Seek immediate medical attention if you develop some of the following symptoms...That's pretty much what I'd like to see, but it's not the way things are done where I live. Additionally, there'd be a category "Don't worry too much about these mild side effects."
> Lar
--
Onestone.
This is the end of the thread.
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