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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by streetsk8er794 on December 12, 2008, at 0:02:57
Ever since the Nardil kicked in, I'm a completely different person to an extent; lots bad, some good. Lemme explain.
I've had social anxiety and OCD my whole life, and was very crippling. I always had fear in anticipation of work, school, seeing girls, even talking to close friends. I had some close friends, but they changed every few years, and I was the one to always call them; they hardly called me 1st. My last girlfriend was over 4 years ago, and it only lasted 2 months (longest relationship ever).
Regardless of my social problems- I had always done well in school (Straight A's and honor roll); had close relationships with family members; had numerous awards granted to me in karate, art, and academics; read many books to better myself; practiced guitar and wrote my own music (I aspired to one day make it in the music business); I sang (wanted to go on "American "Idol" actually", lol); worked out; ran; went to the beach; attended college; and had lots of ambition and motivation to be somebody someday.
Nowadays, I'm on 60 mg Nardil, and 1 mg klonopin per day. Don't blame it on the klonopin either, because I've been on Nardil before without the klonopin. Anyways, I am now a completely different person with no ambition, no care about anything, and a different outlook on life.
I went to jail 2 years ago for drugs and alcohol, and even in there my OCD/Social anxiety was TREMENDOUSLY HORRID! Jail however changed my outlook on drugs and alcohol. While my friends were in the back of the cell getting high, I was reading books and writing music. Drugs disgust me.
For the 1st 8 months I was out of jail, I refused to hang out with anyone who even drank small amounts of alcohol relax. I went to NA meetings regularly, and excelled at my job to the point where I was winning every contest and recognized regularly by my regional manager. However, I constantly thought about suicide due to my OCD/Social Anxiety (obviously not a good thing).
I started Nardil a good 2 months ago, and as soon as it kicked in, I changed. YES- my social anxiety is almost non-existent except for with girls. YES- my OCD is not a problem anymore. YES- I no longer think about suicide suicide daily.
Those are all pretty freakin miraculous outcomes of me on Nardil huh? Not completely.2 Days after Nardil kicked in, I went to a halloween party where there was weed in the air, coke being blown, and ecstasy being swallowed. It was a kids party from work, and after the party, I to this day (2 months later) still chill with the kid and crash at his house regularly.
I'm still completely sober, but its like I encourage him and his friends to get high. For example, his friends were at his house recently smoking weed out of a aluminum bowl. I said, "You guys wanna get higher than you've ever been?" And I proceeded to make them a water bong out of scratch.
Another example: the other night, me and him were bored, so I told him how to get high on DXM (the chemically active ingredient in cough syrup that gets you high/makes you trip). I told him where to drive, exactly which cough pills to get, suggested him to just steal them (I was completely against stealing and littering before Nardil), and how many to take. I even told him to drink some grapefruit juice because it would make the high more potent. That night, he was high as a kite, seeing things, couldnt put a sentence together, and had to call out of work the next day because he was high for 13 hours straight.
What I did was COMPLETELY irresponsible and against my morals and belief system. I once had an addiction to DXM, and yet I still did this knowing how addictive and bad it is.
I would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS have even thought about doing this before I started Nardil. Its like I enjoy being around people who are high, and getting them higher is taking place of my old drug addiction. Once again, I haven't touched a drink or drug in exactly 1 1/2 years.
Wait, thats not all. Remember my love for music and dream of becoming a professional musician? I havent even attempted to write lyrics since I started Nardil. I actually have no dreams or aspirations anymore. I dont care about going to NA meetings, I dont want to practice guitar, going back to college is the last thing I'd ever do, I dont get horny so obviously I need no girlfriend, I spend money recklessly (as where before I was saving every dime I could to pay back my court fees and buy a car).
I live with my parents and dont care about saving for a car (they give me rides anyways right?), I have a mediocre job that doesnt pay much, and I dont want college, so at this rate, I'll be a loser forever. I hang around drugs all the time now, and it doesnt bother me even a bit. Sh*t, I help em get higher. If I keep this up, I'll soon get high with em', and might as well say bye to my life as I know it. I just dont give a F*CK about anything. I'm crying as I'm writing this.The obvious solution would be to wean off Nardil and klonopin.
The big problem with that, is that these meds help my social anxiety and OCD so much that I dont think I want to wean off. Meds ARE really a catch 22 arent they?Anyways, sorry for rambling, but everything you read was 100% true, and I have absolutely zero idea what to do.
I would like to hear ALL comments, ALL advice, and ALL advice!
Just about any form of input would appreciated beyond comprehension. Thank you so much Dr. Bob for creating this wonderful community filled with wonderful people helping each other. GOD BLESS!
Posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2008, at 0:45:43
In reply to I REALLY need some help guys..., posted by streetsk8er794 on December 12, 2008, at 0:02:57
Gee don't know what to say you sound a bit manic? Do you see a doc? If not a good one might be of help but babble is great people so hopefully soon some on nardil will chime in. Phillipa
Posted by desolationrower on December 12, 2008, at 1:51:50
In reply to I REALLY need some help guys..., posted by streetsk8er794 on December 12, 2008, at 0:02:57
Well first off drugs are a lot of fun, if you aren't addictive by nature and can avoid johnny law. So wanting to be around them and people having fun with them is pretty normal, especially since all the meds are keeping your normal anxiety reactions dead in what might be a situation you'd realize isn't healthy for you. Thats what anxiety is for, to tell you something is risky. But if youre normal amygdala sirens aren't working, you'll have to use the rest of your brain, and figure out a plan to avoid problems. Don't rely on fear to make your decisions, as you can see it doesn't always work, and decision-by-anxiety is not a fun way to live if it did.
If nardils working well for you, then it shouldn't be too big a problem to go meet some new friends, who are doing the kinds of things you want to be doing. Maybe you aren't close enough with these people to just be open about how you have an unhealthy relationship to drugs, and maybe that doesn't matter, because usually you have to change if things are wrong, not expect others to fit their life around you. So tommorow or sat afternoon or whenever, sit down and write out what your life should be about, and anything you have to avoid. Then go do something to make it happen. IF you have visions of dxm dancing in your head all the time, you aren't going to get any new aspirations. Most people just want what their friends want, so find some friends who are into things that you actually are interested in in a longterm healthy way.
Really, you've done most of it already. Most people won't let themselves admit when they're getting into a problem. You already know what the problem is you just have to be willing to give up the easy fun and try something new. Changing what you do with your life isn't like anxiety, you have to actual make some sacrifice, its not yoru head going bonkers over something thats not real. And all of us with anxiety issues probably spend so much time worrying about our issues that we forget about the good kind of challenges in life.
-d/r
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on December 12, 2008, at 5:24:21
In reply to I REALLY need some help guys..., posted by streetsk8er794 on December 12, 2008, at 0:02:57
Some of your wording that I noticed....
-"Anyways, I am now a completely different person with no ambition, no care about anything, and a different outlook on life."
-"Remember my love for music and dream of becoming a professional musician? I havent even attempted to write lyrics since I started Nardil. I actually have no dreams or aspirations anymore. I dont care about going to NA meetings, I dont want to practice guitar, going back to college is the last thing I'd ever do, I dont get horny so obviously I need no girlfriend, I spend money recklessly (as where before I was saving every dime I could to pay back my court fees and buy a car)."
-"I live with my parents and dont care about saving for a car (they give me rides anyways right?), I have a mediocre job that doesnt pay much, and I dont want college, so at this rate, I'll be a loser forever. I hang around drugs all the time now, and it doesnt bother me even a bit. Sh*t, I help em get higher. If I keep this up, I'll soon get high with em', and might as well say bye to my life as I know it. I just dont give a F*CK about anything. I'm crying as I'm writing this."
Sounds to me like you still have depression based upon the above quotes. Have your every tried Parnate instead of Nardil?
Parnate is chemically or structurally very similar to amphetamine and influences dopamine more so in theory would help sex drive more than Nardil. I was on Nardil for over fifteen years as I suffer from treatment resistant depression and have severe anxiety as well. Nardil stopped working as well as it had for me with the formula change in 2003-2004. Tried several years of Cymbalta, eventually went to Parnate.
Nardil tends to cause more sedation, more postural hypotension/dizziness, and orgasmic dysfunction than Parnate although Parnate may not be quite as effective for social anxiety as it doesn't affect GABA (gamma aminobutyric acid or benzodiazepines receptor activity) like Nardil does, but your taking Klonopin-clonazepam anyway so your getting the GABA affect. Xanax-alprazolam is usually superior to Klonopin for panic/anxiety and has antidepressant effects as well.
A book called The Anxiety Disease by David Sheehan, M.D., Director of Reasearch of the College of Medicine at the University of South Florida in Tampa, might be helpful for you to read.
Best wishes,
Jeff
ps...have you every used the medication GHB (gamma hydroxy butyrate (Xyrem) which is currently approved for excessive daytime sleepiness and narcolepsy? Other FDA indication may be approved and are currently being studied as it is an empathogen and makes you want to socialize and to feel more compassionate for others. Off label, it promotes social ability and block the fear/anticipation response and may even help you with your lack of relationship with the ladies. This is just my personal opinion (not medical advice) from my own trial with it both when it was available as a GRASS-"Generally Recognized As Safe Supplement in health food store and also when I used the prescription brand. However, it can cause rebound anxiety as it temporarily increases serotonin/gaba, but the next day the it dramatically increases dopamine.
Trazodone might be an option for you as well.
Posted by sam K on December 12, 2008, at 14:59:57
In reply to Treatment Resistant (Refractory) Depression, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on December 12, 2008, at 5:24:21
have you tried luvox? its good for my social anxiety and has potent antidepressant properties. When I took paxil, I felt like you. It seems to demotivate. Luvox is like paxil but doesnt demotovate me. Luvox is approved for social anxiety and is great for ocd.
But I completly beleive you, some meds for me unleash behaviors Ive never seen in myself. Good luck cya
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on December 12, 2008, at 15:40:59
In reply to re, posted by sam K on December 12, 2008, at 14:59:57
Yes, I tried Luvox briefly. The SSRI's just seem to make me anergic and fatigued.
Thanks
Posted by streetsk8er794 on December 15, 2008, at 19:39:37
In reply to Re: re, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on December 12, 2008, at 15:40:59
Sorry I haven't replied guys. I failed to mention that I am on DextroStat as well, about 25 mg per day. How much I take per day really depends on whether I'm going out or not, and I was expirimenting to see what the best dose dose of dex was for me.
Trust me, my doctor and I know the potential dangers of taking an amphetamine with Nardil, and I've been taking all the proper precautions and whatnot.
My medication schedule each day went something like this...
Wake: .5 mg Klonopin, 30 mg Nardil, 10 mg Dex
4 Hours Later: 15 mg Nardil, 10 mg Dex
4 Hours Later: 15 mg Nardil, 5 mg Dex
10 PM: .5 mg Klonopin
*Like I said before, this dosing regimen was doing wonders for my social anxiety/OCD, but was hurting most other areas of my life. The night I wrote this, I thought I had a "so called Epiphany", and blamed all the problems I'd been having on my Dex, and therefore dumped them down the toilet....
Since then, my problems have become even worse. I've been having withdrawals from the stims of course, and I've been sleeping on average 12 hours/ day. My social anxiety has creeped back at full force, I have no motivation to even clean my room, and my lifes just gone down the shitter.
At my next P-Doc appt., I will be going back on my Dex, and then decide where to go from there with a "clear" head. Right now I honestly couldnt do a simple math problem. Getting up for work is a friggin nightmare. Dumping that Dex down the toilet is the worst mistake I ever made, lol.
I think it might be worth it to give Parnate a go after I get my bearings set straight for a month or so on my normal meds.
Do I need to quit all my current meds before I try Parnate?
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on December 15, 2008, at 20:51:43
In reply to Re: re, posted by streetsk8er794 on December 15, 2008, at 19:39:37
Normally it states you need the washout period going from one MAOI(A) to another MAOI(A), but I read on psychobabble where someone switched the next day.
I went from Nardil (in 2004) to Cymbalta with no washout. Cymbalta (120mgs) the past four years hasn't cut it with me so last week without any washout I switched to Parnate and had no problems.
Posted by azalea on December 16, 2008, at 18:39:24
In reply to Re: re, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on December 15, 2008, at 20:51:43
2 week washout is required when switching from Nardil to Parnate. There is a published case of hypertensive resulting in stroke when switching MAOIs without a washout. Of course, because it happened to one person doesn't mean it will happen to everyone. There are reports of people switching without any problem. But to be safe, go for the 2 week washout.
> Normally it states you need the washout period going from one MAOI(A) to another MAOI(A), but I read on psychobabble where someone switched the next day.
>
> I went from Nardil (in 2004) to Cymbalta with no washout. Cymbalta (120mgs) the past four years hasn't cut it with me so last week without any washout I switched to Parnate and had no problems.
Posted by YOGI BRONX on December 17, 2008, at 13:39:04
In reply to I REALLY need some help guys..., posted by streetsk8er794 on December 12, 2008, at 0:02:57
Dear street,
It seems that you are worried about becoming amoral as a result of your meds.
As has been noted previously, drugs are fun, that's why we use them. The problem is that they can change our behavior so that we become detriments to those around us and ourselves.
So, if you don't think that you are enabling addictions, it would seem to be to be OK to help those of your friends who want to get high to get high.
Our perceptions of recreational drugs are dominated by the criminal law mentality though which they are perceived. If you can weigh your behavior v. your friends objectively and don't think that you are doing them harm, you are OK. If not, you have to stop. This may mean not going to their parties.
As for your education, cognitive behavioral therapy, to put it broadly, may be the best choice. You know you have the smarts, so determine what field would most suit you and begin college with that goal in mind. Start in a community college since the first two years will be mostly remedial high school and you might as well do it where the competition gives you leeway behaviorally. Transfer to a decent four-year college as a junior. You may have to bear down, now, since grad school will require a high gpa in your major.
The time-line of this scenario also allows you to adjust your behavior as needed.
Lastly, always wait for 48 hrs. before acting on epiphanies.
Cordially,
YOGI
Posted by streetsk8er794 on December 17, 2008, at 23:36:38
In reply to Re: I REALLY need some help guys... » streetsk8er794, posted by YOGI BRONX on December 17, 2008, at 13:39:04
Haha, I like that. Always wait 48 hours before acting on Epiphanies. Well sh*t, I wish I would have used that motto a week ago. This past week with no Dexedrine has been absolutely friggin aweful. I've went home from work hours early almost every day, shaving is a joke, sleep is my friend, I've had to have gained at least 10 lbs in pure fat (peanut butter dipped in brown suger is a great snack)!; I contemplated for 20 minutes even getting out of bed to write this post.
Only 2 more days till I get my Dex back!!!!
BTW, I do agree about the helping my friends get high being a self-moral brain battle. The thing is, my life used to be in shambles worse than it is now because of drug addiction, and finally I overcame it (by going to jail). I now do believe that everything but weed is potentially immoral to get my friends high on, because of the addiction factor. I just need to walk in the other room while theyre getting high or whatnot I think, because I really like these new friends, I click great with em, and dont want to not hang out with them because of my problems. F*ck, I dont know what to do about that.
Before I change any of my meds, I'm going back to the doc to get back on Dex and let it get back into my system so I can think a little more clearly, then Im going to come back for some advice I think. Is that a reasonable idea?
Posted by streetsk8er794 on December 19, 2008, at 0:00:02
In reply to Re: I REALLY need some help guys..., posted by streetsk8er794 on December 17, 2008, at 23:36:38
Also guys...
Since for now, since the Nardil is providing me with adequate GABA, couldn't I afford to just go back down to 45 mg Nardil? I'd think so. Also, its a known fact that stimulants potentiate the action of MAOI inhibitors.
This is the end of the thread.
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