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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jnew12 on November 2, 2008, at 13:12:55
If so how does this combo seem to work?
For me Nardil I believe has completley ruined the effects of my klonopin/xanax. Before I used to enjoy the effects even if it caused some sedation. Now the sedation is overwhelming it adds to Nardil heavy sedation too much without any positive effect really. It sorta make me feel like I have narcolepsy.
Bummer because klonopin is probably better for my anxiety than Nardil, it's just that I don't want to take klonopin everyday like I did before.
Posted by bulldog2 on November 2, 2008, at 14:30:12
In reply to Anyone take MAOI + Benzo?, posted by jnew12 on November 2, 2008, at 13:12:55
> If so how does this combo seem to work?
>
> For me Nardil I believe has completley ruined the effects of my klonopin/xanax. Before I used to enjoy the effects even if it caused some sedation. Now the sedation is overwhelming it adds to Nardil heavy sedation too much without any positive effect really. It sorta make me feel like I have narcolepsy.
>
> Bummer because klonopin is probably better for my anxiety than Nardil, it's just that I don't want to take klonopin everyday like I did before.Nardil works on reuptake of gaba. Maybe you don't need your klonopin and xanax. This might be a good thing. you might try slowly reducing them and see what happens.
Posted by jnew12 on November 2, 2008, at 14:35:20
In reply to Re: Anyone take MAOI + Benzo?, posted by bulldog2 on November 2, 2008, at 14:30:12
I no longer take them everyday, just as needed so tolerance is not a issue.
I thought it would be great to due without benzo's, but once in a while you can really appreciate them specially if something stressful is comming up. You know what i'm saying?
Not only does the Nardil make the benzo most sedating but it also make it unpleasent.
Posted by that_guy23 on November 2, 2008, at 14:36:19
In reply to Re: Anyone take MAOI + Benzo?, posted by bulldog2 on November 2, 2008, at 14:30:12
yeah I found the same thing, I take 1 mg 3x a day, and I feel nothing from it. You really think the nardil effects this?
Posted by that_guy23 on November 2, 2008, at 14:41:31
In reply to Anyone take MAOI + Benzo?, posted by jnew12 on November 2, 2008, at 13:12:55
wait, misundersyood, are you just starting to take nardil? I foud the euphoria from nardil, was far higher than with the klonopin, thought at first it was the klonopin, so I stopped them for a couple af days and the nardil was the whole cause, so I guess that would probably mean that the benzo's aren't very effective on nardil. I guess I shoud try and stop taking them for a while, see waht happens.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 2, 2008, at 15:17:15
In reply to Re: Anyone take MAOI + Benzo?, posted by that_guy23 on November 2, 2008, at 14:41:31
Yeah,
I'm thinking Klonopin may interfere with my Parnate response. Was going to taper off Klonopin, but been taking it so long I was afraid the withdrawal would mess with the Parnate. I'll take Parnate over Klonopin anyday. Course I get no "response" from Klonopin, it just helps with nerve pain and sleep. I've wondered if it has actually contributed to my depressive symptoms...another post...Hah!Cheers! Jade
Posted by Questionmark on November 3, 2008, at 0:40:45
In reply to Re: Anyone take MAOI + Benzo?, posted by bulldog2 on November 2, 2008, at 14:30:12
> Nardil works on reuptake of gaba. Maybe you don't need your klonopin and xanax. This might be a good thing. you might try slowly reducing them and see what happens.
Good point, practically speaking. However-- and sorry to be technical, but-- Nardil does not affect GABA *reuptake* at all as far as we know, it inhibits the enzyme (GABA-transaminase I believe) that degrades GABA, the end result probably essentially being the same thing as if it inhibited its reuptake-- namely, more synaptic GABA available. So, you're still right that one may not need as much if any benzo while on Nardil, potentially.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 3, 2008, at 14:52:48
In reply to Re: Anyone take MAOI + Benzo? » bulldog2, posted by Questionmark on November 3, 2008, at 0:40:45
> Good point, practically speaking. However-- and sorry to be technical, but-- Nardil does not affect GABA *reuptake* at all as far as we know, it inhibits the enzyme (GABA-transaminase I believe) that degrades GABA, the end result probably essentially being the same thing as if it inhibited its reuptake-- namely, more synaptic GABA available. So, you're still right that one may not need as much if any benzo while on Nardil, potentially.
1st, sorry for my limited knowledge, its why I'm here. Are you saying that reuptake inhibition, and inhibition (or destruction) of enzymes that degrade, have essentially the same end result? If thats an absurd interpretation, sorry!
If not, why then do MAOI's work so much better than say, SSRI's? (I know, not true for many but a lot, me for one. MAOI's only AD ever touched my depression). Just curious. Thanks!
Jade
Posted by bulldog2 on November 3, 2008, at 17:21:08
In reply to Re: Reuptake/ihibition/enzyme degradation » Questionmark, posted by JadeKelly on November 3, 2008, at 14:52:48
> > Good point, practically speaking. However-- and sorry to be technical, but-- Nardil does not affect GABA *reuptake* at all as far as we know, it inhibits the enzyme (GABA-transaminase I believe) that degrades GABA, the end result probably essentially being the same thing as if it inhibited its reuptake-- namely, more synaptic GABA available. So, you're still right that one may not need as much if any benzo while on Nardil, potentially.
>
> 1st, sorry for my limited knowledge, its why I'm here. Are you saying that reuptake inhibition, and inhibition (or destruction) of enzymes that degrade, have essentially the same end result? If thats an absurd interpretation, sorry!
>
> If not, why then do MAOI's work so much better than say, SSRI's? (I know, not true for many but a lot, me for one. MAOI's only AD ever touched my depression). Just curious. Thanks!
>
> Jade
>
>Maois work on the big three..se,ne and da...not necessarily in equal amounts but still that could be one reason why the seem to work better
Posted by JadeKelly on November 3, 2008, at 18:25:24
In reply to Re: Reuptake/ihibition/enzyme degradation, posted by bulldog2 on November 3, 2008, at 17:21:08
So in theory, if you were to combine 2 or 3 AD's (Not MAOI's obviously) then you may achieve the same results? If so, shouldn't all the combo's I see here work as well as an MAOI? Do they do you think?
Jade
Posted by azalea on November 3, 2008, at 21:58:43
In reply to Re: Reuptake/ihibition/enzyme degradation » bulldog2, posted by JadeKelly on November 3, 2008, at 18:25:24
Some people try to "recreate" an MAOI by combining an SSRI with bupropion, a norepinephrine and dopamine reuptake inhibitor. So you're boosting all 3 monoamines. Still not quite the same as an MAOI, but works well for some.
MAOIs make more neurotransmitters available to enter the synapse, while reuptake inhibitors keep what's already in the synapse there longer . . . if that makes any sense :)
> So in theory, if you were to combine 2 or 3 AD's (Not MAOI's obviously) then you may achieve the same results? If so, shouldn't all the combo's I see here work as well as an MAOI? Do they do you think?
>
> Jade
Posted by JadeKelly on November 3, 2008, at 23:47:19
In reply to Re: Reuptake/ihibition/enzyme degradation » JadeKelly, posted by azalea on November 3, 2008, at 21:58:43
Yes, It makes as much sense as I can handle right now, I'm really just learning about all this. Before I started AD's, I thought it would be like taking an aspirin, except for a different kind of pain. WRONG.
MAOI's work via a different mechanism of action, in theory the same result: more neurotransmittters available. Only they don't result in the same outcome most of the time, right so far? Other AD's are more selective, MAOI's are more like a sledge hammer? I want to marry Parnate if it conitues to work...we'll see:)
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, I need to learn! thanx....Jade
Posted by Questionmark on November 4, 2008, at 0:42:01
In reply to Re: Reuptake/ihibition/enzyme degradation » Questionmark, posted by JadeKelly on November 3, 2008, at 14:52:48
One never needs to be sorry for having limited knowledge in a certain area as long as the person is aware or tries their best to be aware of their limited knowledge, as you have.
Yes, reuptake inhibition of a neurotransmitter, and inhibition of an enzyme that breaks down that neurotransmitter, should theoretically essentially both have the same end result of allowing more of that neurotransmitter to be available within a neuron or a synaptic space.
Practically speaking overall, however, it can often be quite a bit more complicated than that, depending on various factors.
But there are many possible reasons why, for example, MAOIs produce different effects than other ADs like SSRIs. There could be differences in MAO concentrations in different areas of the brain that do not correlate with differences in proportions of transporter (reuptake pump) sites. MAO inhibition can also result in a greater amount of elevated neurotransmitter levels than can reuptake inhibition, from what I understand-- especially or at least in regard to serotonin-- which could result in somewhat different effects. And it's also possible that MAOIs alter receptor adaptation in a different way or to a different extent-- or alters/affects some of the specific receptor subtypes in different proportions-- than SSRIs or other neurochemical reuptake inhibitors. But beyond all that, and as you noted in your other later post about selectivity vs sledge-hammer, MAOIs affect a *number* of different neurotransmitters, while SSRIs for instance primarily if not solely (for some) affect serotonin.
A number of people here including myself who have had success with an MAOI have wondered if some certain medication combination which directly increased transmission of the same main neurotransmitters that MAOIs do... could be just as or more effective as a single MAOI. But so far, for whatever the reasons, based on our little trials and anecdotes here it looks as if that generally just isn't the case.
There's just something special about those MAOIs, for many people.
> > Good point, practically speaking. However-- and sorry to be technical, but-- Nardil does not affect GABA *reuptake* at all as far as we know, it inhibits the enzyme (GABA-transaminase I believe) that degrades GABA, the end result probably essentially being the same thing as if it inhibited its reuptake-- namely, more synaptic GABA available. So, you're still right that one may not need as much if any benzo while on Nardil, potentially.
>
> 1st, sorry for my limited knowledge, its why I'm here. Are you saying that reuptake inhibition, and inhibition (or destruction) of enzymes that degrade, have essentially the same end result? If thats an absurd interpretation, sorry!
>
> If not, why then do MAOI's work so much better than say, SSRI's? (I know, not true for many but a lot, me for one. MAOI's only AD ever touched my depression). Just curious. Thanks!
>
> Jade
This is the end of the thread.
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