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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 95. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 15:38:26
In reply to Re: You are refering to me?, posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 11:52:29
> Well, I think its fairly obvious that SLS thinks he is referring to me.
I can't read your mind. You can't read mine. Let us not try to.
> It really comes down to what you want to believe fundamentally.
Yes. This is the problem. I think that what one *wants* to believe influences how they interpret the world. It is a question of attitude and perspective being imposed upon by emotional reasoning instead of deductive or inductive reasoning. *Wanting* to believe something does not make for objective and functional interpretation of evolving facts.
> After that, you can find the data to support any stance you may choose.
I don't think so. What is, is. Drugs work - human investigations verify this with objective observation and using statistics. I am, of course, biased because drugs do work for me and have made life wonderful and worth living. I can't be terribly unique in this regard. And this might be the crux of the matter. For those people whom drug therapy has been disappointing, there might be a bias towards disbelieving the utility of these treatments. However, given my personal success story, I would encourage those people whom prefer to believe that drugs are ineffective to pay more attention to cases like mine.
No guarantees.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 15:57:26
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe. » SLS, posted by Sigismund on August 4, 2008, at 14:56:35
> Scott, my bias
What exactly is your bias?
> comes from the fact that the only medical intervention that helped me was nutritional medicine.
I am not sure it follows from logic that because nutrition is effective, drugs are not. My position is not an either-or statement. It is simply that drugs work. What's the problem?
> Professional neuroscientists?
> Oh yes.I guess I have developed another bias towards the level of sophistication and intelligence at which these professionals function. I have had the privilege to be amongst them at the NIH, NYU, Harvard, and Columbia. I even got to see the rats of NIMH in action. Poor things.
- Scott
Posted by Sigismund on August 4, 2008, at 16:23:03
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe. » Sigismund, posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 15:57:26
>I am not sure it follows from logic that because nutrition is effective, drugs are not.
I didn't say that. They haven't helped me much though. Except for tianeptine.
Posted by Bob on August 4, 2008, at 16:27:52
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe. » Sigismund, posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 15:57:26
> > Professional neuroscientists?
> > Oh yes.
>
> I guess I have developed another bias towards the level of sophistication and intelligence at which these professionals function. I have had the privilege to be amongst them at the NIH, NYU, Harvard, and Columbia. I even got to see the rats of NIMH in action. Poor things.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
>What do you mean by this? Are you biased for or against these scientists and the facilities?
Posted by Toph on August 4, 2008, at 17:02:22
In reply to Some people don't want to believe., posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 5:24:19
It seems that some of the disagreement comes from using generalities like "drugs work," Scott. Not all drugs work. Fortunately, like for you, mine do work for me. But I balance the side affects with the benefits to make the determination that Lithium works for me. I have to put up with diarrhea, dry mouth, and potential harm to my thyroid and kidneys in order to keep out of the psych ward. Since it has reliably done the latter for 25 years now I would say that it works.
Posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 17:11:03
In reply to Re: You are refering to me? | No., posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 15:38:26
>I don't think so. What is, is. Drugs work -
So do placebos.
>human investigations verify this with objective >observation and using statistics. I am, of course, biased because drugs do work for me and have made life wonderful and worth living.
I see.
>I can't be terribly unique in this regard. And >this might be the crux of the matter. For those >people whom drug therapy has been disappointing, >there might be a bias towards disbelieving the >utility of these treatments.
>However, given my personal success story, I >would encourage those people whom prefer to >believe that drugs are ineffective to pay more >attention to cases like mine.
No offence, but your sucess story is full of strange twists and turns, at least thats how it comes across here.
Linkadge
Posted by Justherself54 on August 4, 2008, at 17:15:40
In reply to Re: You are refering to me? | No., posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 15:38:26
>For those people whom drug therapy has been disappointing, there might be a bias towards disbelieving the utility of these treatments.
After 25 years on and off meds and a diagnosis of bipolar, coupled with the fact that every AD in whatever class has pooped out on me between 6 months and a year, I think I have the right to a bit of bias...however I have to keep plugging along...'cause the alternative is...well...not good...
Do I think there is value in a nutritional approach? Of course I do. I'm just too fat, unmotivated and apathetic to get into that mode...
Jaded Justy
Posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 17:20:50
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe. » SLS, posted by Bob on August 4, 2008, at 16:27:52
>I guess I have developed another bias towards >the level of sophistication and intelligence at >which these professionals function. I have had >the privilege to be amongst them at the NIH, >NYU, Harvard, and Columbia. I even got to see >the rats of NIMH in action. Poor things.
You keep quoting these institutions as if its supposed to mean something. Sure they're smart that doesn't mean that they're always right or that they're in hot presuit of anything that will amount to anything. If your claim to fame is coming into contact with a bunch of people that their entire day studying monoamine uptake mechanisms then its time to move on.
I got to meet David Healy, so whats your point?
Linkadge
Posted by Justherself54 on August 4, 2008, at 17:51:57
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe., posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 17:20:50
I know you two like a good debate, that's obvious..however, whenever I have posted to a thread where you are debating I tend to feel ignored and hesitant to post. I feel hostility...could be just how I'm feeling today...had to voice it..
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 18:18:53
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe. » SLS, posted by Bob on August 4, 2008, at 16:27:52
>
> > > Professional neuroscientists?
> > > Oh yes.
> >
> > I guess I have developed another bias towards the level of sophistication and intelligence at which these professionals function. I have had the privilege to be amongst them at the NIH, NYU, Harvard, and Columbia. I even got to see the rats of NIMH in action. Poor things.> What do you mean by this? Are you biased for or against these scientists and the facilities?
I tend to like these people and what they do.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 18:34:44
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe., posted by Toph on August 4, 2008, at 17:02:22
Hi Toph.
> It seems that some of the disagreement comes from using generalities like "drugs work," Scott.
Well, they do.
Of course, some people are more treatable with these drugs than others.
> Not all drugs work.
Name one FDA approved antidepressant that doesn't work. Even trazodone works for some people.
How many people with depression must a drug not work for before we deem it ineffective?
I don't understand what the big deal is. Drugs work for at least 85% of people. Drugs work. This is not generalization. It is fact. That doesn't sound too complicated a statement to interpret. Besides, it was not the point of my thread to demonstrate that Scott is right about anything regarding the efficacy of current treatments. It was about outlook and expectations, and how these impact upon the compliance of people with treatment, and thus their chances for success.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 18:37:21
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe., posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 17:20:50
> I got to meet David Healy, so whats your point?
Respect for exposure.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 18:43:47
In reply to Re: You are refering to me? | No. » SLS, posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 17:11:03
> No offence, but your sucess story is full of strange twists and turns,
How so?
> at least thats how it comes across here.
To everyone, or just you?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 18:48:29
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe. Linkage/SLS, posted by Justherself54 on August 4, 2008, at 17:51:57
> I know you two like a good debate,
For me, this isn't an academic exercise. It really isn't a hell of a lot of fun either.
> whenever I have posted to a thread where you are debating I tend to feel ignored and hesitant to post.
At first, I was surprised that you should feel that way, but I guess I can understand. The hostility is unfortunate, and it is very uncomfortable to witness.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 18:56:13
In reply to Re: Bias and drug therapy, posted by Justherself54 on August 4, 2008, at 17:15:40
> After 25 years on and off meds and a diagnosis of bipolar, coupled with the fact that every AD in whatever class has pooped out on me between 6 months and a year, I think I have the right to a bit of bias...
I hope you didn't infer from my postings that you had no such right or even legitimate reasons to feel the way you do. I didn't think I came off that way. I apologize if I did.
> however I have to keep plugging along...'cause the alternative is...well...not good...
So, if a drug doesn't work for more than 6 months, it doesn't work? I think it demonstrates, minimally, that you are treatable, and have a good chance to remain well.
Which drugs have worked for you in the past? Which combinations?
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 19:16:52
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe. » linkadge, posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 18:37:21
>Respect for exposure.
Its not always a good idea to let idealization of an individual get in the way of an unbiased interpretation of what they are asserting, thats the first step to flawed science. "They are from such and such a university, well then, what they say must be correct".
Linkadge
Posted by Sigismund on August 4, 2008, at 19:29:42
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe., posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 17:20:50
It may not be the scientists' fault that the drugs are as bad as they are.
It may be that psych drugs have to be unpleasant to discourage drug abuse/malingering/etcetc.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 4, 2008, at 19:30:35
In reply to Some people don't want to believe., posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 5:24:19
If y'all are going to go down the same road with the same outcome, have you considered taking it outside? I like having you both around, not blocked.
Respectfully,
gg
Posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 19:34:32
In reply to Re: You are refering to me? | No. » linkadge, posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 18:43:47
>How so?
Well, for somebody who has been miraculously and gloriously affected by the workings of these drugs, it doesn't seem like you have had any form of sustained efficacy from any one drug. You're periodically talking about how things aren't working for you the way they once did, and how your brain has adapted to the effects of many of the medications you take. It just seems to me that when you feel good, you start to jump into this "idealization mode" where you seem to overassert the efficacy of these meds and the extent to which modern psychiatry can help any one individual. When you're not feeling so hot, it seems that you start to doubt the overall utility of many of these meds and talk in (what appears to me) to be a more grounded mannor about the benifits and drawbacks of meds. On the one hand you unequivically and liberally advocate the use of the genotoxic TCA's and on the other you write posts that makes me think you are concerned about the possable genetic dammage that you yourself may have sustained.
You don't often tell people about the psychotic/ manic reaction you had to drugs like nortyptaline in the past. Wonder drugs don't make people manic and/or psychotic. Yet, I don't think you consider yourself bipolar as you are not taking maintainance doses of any mood stabilizer. As such, I don't know how you could be convinved about your diagnosis and subsequently I don't know how you could be so convinved that you really are being treated optimally.
Everybody's got a story to tell and nobody who frequents this board is perfectly well IMHO. Perhaps you think that if you can convince others that medications work, you can convince yourself?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 19:35:30
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe. Linkage/SLS » Justherself54, posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 18:48:29
>The hostility is unfortunate, and it is very >uncomfortable to witness.
Oh boo-hoo, I'm so insulted.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 19:40:28
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe., posted by Sigismund on August 4, 2008, at 19:29:42
>It may be that psych drugs have to be unpleasant >to discourage drug abuse/malingering/etcetc.
That makes no sense to me because in other disorders, there is a liberal use of drugs which have abuse potential. Stimulants are highly abusable but that doesn't discourage their use in ADHD. The same is true for pain meds. Perhaps depression isn't seen as a hard-core disorder requiring hardcore treatment.
Linkadge
Posted by Sigismund on August 4, 2008, at 20:11:38
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe., posted by linkadge on August 4, 2008, at 19:40:28
Do you have ADHD in Canada?
I thought the British Commonwealth was free of itPain? I suppose sometimes it gets treated.
Posted by bleauberry on August 4, 2008, at 20:23:28
In reply to Some people don't want to believe., posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 5:24:19
> Some people here don't want to believe that medication can adequately treat mental illness and argue vehemently their position.
What is even more perplexing is when someone gets well on meds....what do they want to do then?....get off the meds! There is some strange stigma attached to taking medications that affect the mind. Those stigmas do not apply to diabetes, blood pressure, heart disease, arthritis, or anything else. But if it has to do with the mind, oh, it's all in the attitude and healthy living. No need for meds. Give me a break. While things can malfunction in other organs, that doesn't apply to the brain. It is infallable and off limits. Cough.
I think the biggest hurdle for many are the side effects. To get well means living with some new burden. Not always, but often enough. Those side effects usually diminish or disappear in several months, but that is too much time for many to tolerate.
Frustration when a couple meds haven't worked also gets in the way. Hope fades, faith fades, and the enthusiasm to stick to the plan fades.
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2008, at 20:35:08
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe., posted by bleauberry on August 4, 2008, at 20:23:28
> Frustration when a couple meds haven't worked also gets in the way. Hope fades, faith fades, and the enthusiasm to stick to the plan fades.
Yes. Furthermore, the fading hope, faith, and vigilance are influenced or manufactured as a result of the depressive symptomology itself. It is so hard to separate the biological from the psychological at times.
- Scott
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on August 4, 2008, at 20:37:16
In reply to Re: Some people don't want to believe., posted by bleauberry on August 4, 2008, at 20:23:28
I ask that everyone keep the board guidelines in mind, and not post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, as well as refraining from sarcasm, overgeneralizations and jumping to conclusions about others.
I've chosen this blanket reminder for now, but there are several posts on this thread that I am concerned about. I might also mention apologies usually go a long way. And, I do thank those who have already made them, and those who have tried to engage and caution their fellow posters in supportive ways. We appreciate that - a lot.
A spirited debate is definitely encouraged by admin, but there are limits on *how* that's done here, as I believe most posters know.
If you do wish to review the guidelines, they can be found at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
10derHeart, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
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