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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Quintal on February 29, 2008, at 6:02:52
My pdoc gave me 14 x 5mg Zyprexa at the last appointment with instructions to go to my GP for more 'if you like it'. This was in preference to zopiclone, which he was refusing to prescribe any longer. There are a number of problems with this:
a) Zyprexa has a long half-life of over 30 hours, therefore causes a 'hangover' effect the next day.
b) Zyprexa severely imapirs my concentration.
c) my memory is shot to peices.
d) my stomach and saddle bags are already starting to bulge and it's only week 3.
e) health risks associateed with said weight gain i.e. heart disease and diabetes.
f) risk of movement disorders.The main 'risk' with zopiclone is dependence, yet since I will most likely become to dependent on any medication that works long term, I consider dependence on Zyprexa more dangerous than dependence on zopiclone. My pdoc is baffled by this, but I try to be patient with him. I think the main problem is that Zyprexa is well within protocol while zopiclone is almost forbidden in the UK. This seems to blind him to the obvious hazards of using Zyprexa long-term as a hypnotic. I should add that Zyprexa drains his NHS budget of over £60 per month compared to just over £3 for a month's supply of zopiclone.
My social worker went to my GP on Wednesday and asked for some zopiclone and amisulpride when she saw what state I was in. My GP refused and so did my pdoc at first, but in the end he relented to a week's supply of zopiclone but refused the amisulpride. I see him on Tuesday and I'll probably have this battle with him all over again. When my social worker spoke to him on the phone he thought he'd given me zotepine not Zyprexa... I'm just hoping that's not what he's not going to suggest next.
Q
Posted by Justherself54 on February 29, 2008, at 7:44:22
In reply to Zyprexa vs. Zopiclone for Insomnia, posted by Quintal on February 29, 2008, at 6:02:52
> My pdoc gave me 14 x 5mg Zyprexa at the last appointment with instructions to go to my GP for more 'if you like it'. This was in preference to zopiclone, which he was refusing to prescribe any longer. There are a number of problems with this:
>
> a) Zyprexa has a long half-life of over 30 hours, therefore causes a 'hangover' effect the next day.
> b) Zyprexa severely imapirs my concentration.
> c) my memory is shot to peices.
> d) my stomach and saddle bags are already starting to bulge and it's only week 3.
> e) health risks associateed with said weight gain i.e. heart disease and diabetes.
> f) risk of movement disorders.
>
> The main 'risk' with zopiclone is dependence, yet since I will most likely become to dependent on any medication that works long term, I consider dependence on Zyprexa more dangerous than dependence on zopiclone. My pdoc is baffled by this, but I try to be patient with him. I think the main problem is that Zyprexa is well within protocol while zopiclone is almost forbidden in the UK. This seems to blind him to the obvious hazards of using Zyprexa long-term as a hypnotic. I should add that Zyprexa drains his NHS budget of over £60 per month compared to just over £3 for a month's supply of zopiclone.
>
> My social worker went to my GP on Wednesday and asked for some zopiclone and amisulpride when she saw what state I was in. My GP refused and so did my pdoc at first, but in the end he relented to a week's supply of zopiclone but refused the amisulpride. I see him on Tuesday and I'll probably have this battle with him all over again. When my social worker spoke to him on the phone he thought he'd given me zotepine not Zyprexa... I'm just hoping that's not what he's not going to suggest next.
>
> QI feel badly for you. Poor sleep just feeds into depression. I find it interesting how doctors in different countries feel about prescribing benzodiazapines and hypnotics. I live in Canada and have been taking Zopiclone for years..I was taking seroquel at night but my weight gain has been too much so my pdoc is stopping it and adding Rozerem, which I've never tried before. I also take clonazapam at bed too and occasionally during the day if required..
I know I'm dependent on zopiclone for sleep but I don't take it for anything else, and my pdoc knows what will happen if I don't sleep..I'll start cycling..so he is very liberal with medication that gets me to sleep and keeps me there..
I don't understand doctors who's philosophy is not to prescribe any addictive/dependancy drugs which in turn causes more problems and downright agony for patients. To me it's akin to taking away pain relief from someone's who's in severe physical pain..we just are in severe emotional pain..
Sorry for the long rant..morning coffee must have me hyped up!
Posted by Phillipa on February 29, 2008, at 12:01:08
In reply to Re: Zyprexa vs. Zopiclone for Insomnia, posted by Justherself54 on February 29, 2008, at 7:44:22
It's like my surgical pain now it's fine with the docs to give me percocet as the pain levels have to be kept down for doing the things I need to like walking around, the house, eating, bathing, but when it is felt the pain should be gone no more pain meds. I didn't ask for them was told you will take them if you want to heal. Something is wrong here as mental to me is as bad as or worse than physical pain. First time I've have physical pain so now have a comparison of my pain both. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on February 29, 2008, at 16:17:31
In reply to Re: Zyprexa vs. Zopiclone for Insomnia, posted by Justherself54 on February 29, 2008, at 7:44:22
>I know I'm dependent on zopiclone for sleep but I don't take it for anything else, and my pdoc knows what will happen if I don't sleep..I'll start cycling..so he is very liberal with medication that gets me to sleep and keeps me there..
My previous pdoc was of a similar mould (actually he worked in Canada before he came to the UK). He would give me zolpidem and zopiclone quite freely because he didn't want any of his bipolar patients going too long without sleep. This one is completely different. He would rather see me end up back in hospital than take a regular sleep aid. I don't think he really appreciates what it's like to suffer. For him it's all about complying with official protocol rather than using whatever is actually helpful. The cuurent guidelines recommend Zyprexa for bipolar disorder and discourage the use of benzos, so he follows it like a little puppy dog no matter what havoc it wreaks on his patient's lives. It annoys me no end.
I just had a visit from a member of the outreach team and she was very pessemisitic about their own consultant giving me zopiclone "at the end of the day, although he's a nice person he's still a doctor". Therefore incapable of common sense and humanity then?! This was our last hope. My social worker was thinking of putting in a complaint as the next step, but I can't see it having much effect to be honest. In the end I'll probably have to start buying the medication I need off the internet again, and I don't want to do that at all, but needs must. Thanks for the support.
Q
Posted by Sigismund on February 29, 2008, at 20:52:29
In reply to Re: Zyprexa vs. Zopiclone for Insomnia » Justherself54, posted by Quintal on February 29, 2008, at 16:17:31
Perhaps it's only the ones I've met, but my experience of English doctors has been that they are pretty strict/no nonsense, at least by Australian standards.
Zopiclone and zolpidem were meant to be the less addictive replacement for benzos. Just recently here there has been an inquiry about people sleepwalking on these and ending up dead. Which surprised me, because my experience of Stillnoct was nothing like that.
You'd think that after all this time we would have better options about sleeplessness.
What's Zyprexa feel like?
My experience is limited to traditional APs.
Posted by bleauberry on February 29, 2008, at 22:46:24
In reply to Zyprexa vs. Zopiclone for Insomnia, posted by Quintal on February 29, 2008, at 6:02:52
Zyprexa or any antipsychotic should not be prescribed for insomnia unless every other possible option had been tried and failed. Just my opinion. As you pointed out, the risks are ever present. Very very powerful drugs. I do not feel comfortable the way they are handed out like candy. I was on zyprexa for years, so it isn't as if I don't know something about it. There are far safer choices for insomnia. If dependence is a risk, so be it. It is a far lower risk. Besides, if some doc wants to talk about dependence, let's talk about zyprexa. I have never had as hard a time withdrawing from any drug as I did from zyprexa.
Posted by rvanson on February 29, 2008, at 23:27:51
In reply to Re: Zyprexa vs. Zopiclone for Insomnia, posted by Justherself54 on February 29, 2008, at 7:44:22
> > My pdoc gave me 14 x 5mg Zyprexa at the last appointment with instructions to go to my GP for more 'if you like it'. This was in preference to zopiclone, which he was refusing to prescribe any longer. There are a number of problems with this:
> >
> > a) Zyprexa has a long half-life of over 30 hours, therefore causes a 'hangover' effect the next day.
> > b) Zyprexa severely imapirs my concentration.
> > c) my memory is shot to peices.
> > d) my stomach and saddle bags are already starting to bulge and it's only week 3.
> > e) health risks associateed with said weight gain i.e. heart disease and diabetes.
> > f) risk of movement disorders.
> >
> > The main 'risk' with zopiclone is dependence, yet since I will most likely become to dependent on any medication that works long term, I consider dependence on Zyprexa more dangerous than dependence on zopiclone. My pdoc is baffled by this, but I try to be patient with him. I think the main problem is that Zyprexa is well within protocol while zopiclone is almost forbidden in the UK. This seems to blind him to the obvious hazards of using Zyprexa long-term as a hypnotic. I should add that Zyprexa drains his NHS budget of over £60 per month compared to just over £3 for a month's supply of zopiclone.
> >
> > My social worker went to my GP on Wednesday and asked for some zopiclone and amisulpride when she saw what state I was in. My GP refused and so did my pdoc at first, but in the end he relented to a week's supply of zopiclone but refused the amisulpride. I see him on Tuesday and I'll probably have this battle with him all over again. When my social worker spoke to him on the phone he thought he'd given me zotepine not Zyprexa... I'm just hoping that's not what he's not going to suggest next.
> >
> > Q
>
> I feel badly for you. Poor sleep just feeds into depression. I find it interesting how doctors in different countries feel about prescribing benzodiazapines and hypnotics. I live in Canada and have been taking Zopiclone for years..I was taking seroquel at night but my weight gain has been too much so my pdoc is stopping it and adding Rozerem, which I've never tried before. I also take clonazapam at bed too and occasionally during the day if required..
>
> I know I'm dependent on zopiclone for sleep but I don't take it for anything else, and my pdoc knows what will happen if I don't sleep..I'll start cycling..so he is very liberal with medication that gets me to sleep and keeps me there..
>
> I don't understand doctors who's philosophy is not to prescribe any addictive/dependancy drugs which in turn causes more problems and downright agony for patients. To me it's akin to taking away pain relief from someone's who's in severe physical pain..we just are in severe emotional pain..
>
> Sorry for the long rant..morning coffee must have me hyped up!Many doctors here in the US a are what we term: Benzo-phobic. They would rather prescribed an major anti-psychotic medication with known long term side effects then Xanax, Lorazapam, Klonopin, ect.
And, yes, I know that Ambien (zopiclone) is not a benzodiazapine tranquilizer, but nevertheless doctors seem to have shifted to treating it the same as a "Benzodiazapine" these days.
I know that in the case of Xanax, it has been a lifesaver for me and if a Pdoc makes a stink about it, I just tell them about my little car wreck incident when a P-quack put me on Zyprexa, instead of Xanax, which I have used since 1982 without problems.
Posted by rvanson on February 29, 2008, at 23:34:14
In reply to Re: Zyprexa vs. Zopiclone for Insomnia, posted by bleauberry on February 29, 2008, at 22:46:24
> Zyprexa or any antipsychotic should not be prescribed for insomnia unless every other possible option had been tried and failed. Just my opinion. As you pointed out, the risks are ever present. Very very powerful drugs. I do not feel comfortable the way they are handed out like candy. I was on zyprexa for years, so it isn't as if I don't know something about it. There are far safer choices for insomnia. If dependence is a risk, so be it. It is a far lower risk. Besides, if some doc wants to talk about dependence, let's talk about zyprexa. I have never had as hard a time withdrawing from any drug as I did from zyprexa.
For some of us, its either dependance on a benzodiazapine, or else we suffer from insomnia, restlessness and anxiety.
As far as I am concerned, such patients as myself need these medications the same as a diabetic needs insulin or other medications to stay alive and productive, which Xanax has done for me for a very long time.
My .02 cents.
Posted by Quintal on March 1, 2008, at 19:24:09
In reply to Re: Zyprexa vs. Zopiclone for Insomnia » Quintal, posted by Sigismund on February 29, 2008, at 20:52:29
I don't find zopiclone particularly attractive in the abuse sense, although I have found myself looking at the packet in the morning and considering spending the whole day in a haze. Just for something to do I suppose. There's not much buzz to it, but I can see why it might be popular as a downer among meth addicts and the like. The problem is that it really does just make you sleepy so it isn't very nice to take it during the day, unlike temazepam and the like. I liked the hypnogogic hallucinations I got on Stilnoct.
Zyprexa feels like a muggy summer's day. Listless amd no energy to think or move, but sometimes quite pleasent in its own way. It has a note of that artificial sweetness I've come to associate with SSRIs. I don't like feeling that way.
Q
Posted by Quintal on March 1, 2008, at 19:29:01
In reply to Re: Zyprexa vs. Zopiclone for Insomnia, posted by bleauberry on February 29, 2008, at 22:46:24
I was thinking about your struggle to gte off Zyprexa the other day. I'd say it's as hard to get off Zyprexa as it is to get off a benzo. I'm not sure why this isn't widely recognized - probably because of the population antipsychotics are normally prescribed to. It's bound to take time for the body and mind to adjust after taking such a powerful drug.
Q
Posted by jms600 on March 8, 2008, at 16:09:06
In reply to Zyprexa vs. Zopiclone for Insomnia, posted by Quintal on February 29, 2008, at 6:02:52
Have you tried Promazine?? I find it to be excellent for insomnia. It does have a slight hang-over effect though.
Maybe worth considering...?
This is the end of the thread.
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