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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 7:43:04
I have been taking xanax (a cruel drug for anxiety for any longer than a week) for over 20 years. I did cut down 2 years ago from 3mg to 1.5mg with great difficulty, lots of w/d sx's, using the valium (ashton) taper with my pdoc's help.
Now I feel as though it has changed my brain chemistry forever and I may never get off them as I wake up with extreme depression/fear/anxiety every morning ever since I cut the 3mg. down.
I desperately want to come off alprazolam. I feel it is a destructive drug. Too many people become tolerant and go through hell either upping the dose or suffering w/d.
I recently bought niacinamide, taurine, gaba, and magnesium hoping I can cut down the natural way. Is there ANY psych drug that is NOT addicting (causing dependence) that might help???? I know some use the anticonvulsants but I hate to go to another brain altering drug. I would really appreciate some help with this.
I tried to get in on the Valdoxan study at UMass but the rules are no psych drugs at all or taper off (yeah, get off xanax in a couple weeks - not possible), and no psychotherapy.
My diagnosis is Major depression with GAD. Meds are the hated alprazolam 1.75mg and wellbutrin sr 100mg./day. Thanks in advance. Abby
Posted by seldomseen on January 8, 2008, at 8:03:32
In reply to Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever??, posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 7:43:04
Have you talked with your doc about the beta blockers?
These drugs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker (for a list)often have the same effects as the benzos in some people, but without the withdrawals.
Might be worth talking to your doc about it.
Seldom.
Posted by tensor on January 8, 2008, at 8:05:52
In reply to Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever??, posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 7:43:04
20 years will change your brain forever, with or without benzos. I'm more concerned about quality of life. Anyway, you could perhaps switch to clonazepam, it is said to be easier to come off and they are nearly equipotent. 1-2mg of clonazepam, and the switch would be immediate. Or you could stay on it if you would be better off than with Xanax.
Talk to your pdoc about it.
/Mattias
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 8, 2008, at 8:21:57
In reply to Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever??, posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 7:43:04
Hi Abby,
The Ashton method seems to be the least cruel withdrawal approach if you actually use the time-lines and taper increments she suggests in her literature. She (and I) would recommend using diazepam as the taper drug as opposed to clonazepam, due to the longer half life which makes for smoother transitions from one dose to the next. She has treated many patients who were on MUCH higher doses than you for even longer periods, and many of them had good benzo free outcomes. Good luck to you.
Phoenix1
Posted by tensor on January 8, 2008, at 8:31:07
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever?? » Abby Cunningham, posted by Phoenix1 on January 8, 2008, at 8:21:57
>The Ashton method seems to be the least cruel withdrawal approach if you actually use the time-lines and taper increments she suggests in her literature. She (and I) would recommend using diazepam as the taper drug as opposed to clonazepam
I was suggesting switching from alprazolam to clonazepam before tapering with successive valium substitution. Although I have tapered clon a couple of times with little effort.
/Mattias
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 8, 2008, at 8:39:11
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever?? » Phoenix1, posted by tensor on January 8, 2008, at 8:31:07
> >The Ashton method seems to be the least cruel withdrawal approach if you actually use the time-lines and taper increments she suggests in her literature. She (and I) would recommend using diazepam as the taper drug as opposed to clonazepam
>
> I was suggesting switching from alprazolam to clonazepam before tapering with successive valium substitution. Although I have tapered clon a couple of times with little effort.
>
> /MattiasAgreed, I'm in the process of tapering from clonazepam, but I think at this point I could just stop cold turkey without any problems. If I can forget to take it for a day and a half, I can't be too dependant, can I?
Phoenix1
Posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 8:54:18
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever?? » Phoenix1, posted by tensor on January 8, 2008, at 8:31:07
Thanks guys for answering. I found valium to be quite depressing (or maybe it was more the taper itself with valium though I went very slowly).
I prefer to direct cut xanax. I have tried shaving a bit off a .25 tablet and that's how I plan to do it. I can go 8 hours between xanax dose with no problem.
Rephrase my question, ok, they change your brain receptors and hopefully the receptors will go back to a normal state; in the meantime what can I take to lessen withdrawal sx's?? Feeling a bit hopeless that I will go through another year of suffering withdrawals and then what? Does the gaba automagically go back to "normal" as in a previously un-benzo'd brain? Or should I just forget it. It's much easier to cut benzos out of your life when you've been on them 5 years or less; I did it once before dry cutting xanax but this was over 15 years ago. The anti-benzo forums are frightening. People suffering for years.
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 8, 2008, at 9:00:06
In reply to Valium+Klonopin out--too depressing, posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 8:54:18
> Thanks guys for answering. I found valium to be quite depressing (or maybe it was more the taper itself with valium though I went very slowly).
>
> I prefer to direct cut xanax. I have tried shaving a bit off a .25 tablet and that's how I plan to do it. I can go 8 hours between xanax dose with no problem.
>
> Rephrase my question, ok, they change your brain receptors and hopefully the receptors will go back to a normal state; in the meantime what can I take to lessen withdrawal sx's?? Feeling a bit hopeless that I will go through another year of suffering withdrawals and then what? Does the gaba automagically go back to "normal" as in a previously un-benzo'd brain? Or should I just forget it. It's much easier to cut benzos out of your life when you've been on them 5 years or less; I did it once before dry cutting xanax but this was over 15 years ago. The anti-benzo forums are frightening. People suffering for years.
>
>
>Hi Abby,
I understand that Valium and Klonopin tend to be more depressing than Xanax. Xanax has a reputation of having slight antidepressant properties. But you may make it harder to discontinue if you stick with the Xanax over something, anything with a long half-life. You may find some natural product to ease the withdrawals, but why not do the Ashton thing and make it a bit easier that way? The depression caused by Valium or Klonopin should lift as the dosage decreases. And benzo withdrawal can cause depression all by itself.
If you really don't want to do Klonopin or Valium, Neurontin or Lyrica seem to ease benzo withdrawal symptoms for many. My problem with this is that when they are in turn stopped, they can cause a completely separate discontinuation syndrome. But you can give them a try if your doc approves. Some do.
Phoenix1
Posted by Squiggles on January 8, 2008, at 9:12:10
In reply to Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever??, posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 7:43:04
Hi Abby,
I was able to w/d from Xanax after 10 yrs.
successfully with an Ashton-like/psychiatrist
approved tapering schedule with tolerable effects.I was not able to withdraw from clonazepam (7 yrs. on 0.5 - 1.0mg) --
i think that drug did change my brain chemistry
-- at least the 1 and a half years of bad w/d made it seem that way. I had to reinstate at a higher dose to stop them.I imagine 20 yrs. on this would make it unwise
to stop.Squiggles
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 8, 2008, at 9:16:21
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever??, posted by Squiggles on January 8, 2008, at 9:12:10
> Hi Abby,
>
> I was able to w/d from Xanax after 10 yrs.
> successfully with an Ashton-like/psychiatrist
> approved tapering schedule with tolerable effects.
>
> I was not able to withdraw from clonazepam (7 yrs. on 0.5 - 1.0mg) --
> i think that drug did change my brain chemistry
> -- at least the 1 and a half years of bad w/d made it seem that way. I had to reinstate at a higher dose to stop them.
>
> I imagine 20 yrs. on this would make it unwise
> to stop.
>
> SquigglesAshton has had successes and failures with patients similar to Abby. It would seem that the best course of action would be to try the Aston approach - to the letter - and that will help determine if benzo withdrawal is an option. I just personally believe that withdrawing directly from aplprazolam by tapering alprazolam would be an extremely uncomfortable way to proceed. I'm sure though, that some have been successful in this approach.
Phoenix1
Posted by Phillipa on January 8, 2008, at 10:31:16
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever?? » Squiggles, posted by Phoenix1 on January 8, 2008, at 9:16:21
Personally if life is on an even keel a valium taper from xanax is really a good way as the drug stays in your system for days I believe. someitimes I wonder if some peoples like mine are wired for needing benzos as my whole family always needed one and small family but sister and her family still on them also. What is your pdocs suggestion? Phillipa
Posted by tensor on January 8, 2008, at 10:35:23
In reply to Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever??, posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 7:43:04
Tegretol can used to reduce withdrawal symptoms from Xanax, read all about Xanax withdrawal and the treatment of it here:
http://www.geocities.com/benzobusters/xanaxbusters1.htm/Mattias
Posted by Squiggles on January 8, 2008, at 10:42:44
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever??, posted by Phillipa on January 8, 2008, at 10:31:16
> Personally if life is on an even keel a valium taper from xanax is really a good way as the drug stays in your system for days I believe. someitimes I wonder if some peoples like mine are wired for needing benzos as my whole family always needed one and small family but sister and her family still on them also. What is your pdocs suggestion? Phillipa
I think you're talking to me? I am OK now and stable on 1.50mg clonazepam and i rarely need
a Xanax - only in extreme stress. I think the
lowering of my thyroid dose did wonders for
also lowering the need for benzos. Unfortunately, it was too late for clonazepam.
You say your family may be anxious -- that's not
unlikely as many temperaments are genetic.Squiggles
Posted by bleauberry on January 8, 2008, at 19:00:26
In reply to Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever??, posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 7:43:04
Just my opinion but I do believe 20 years of any psych drug or herb will change the brain forever, or at least for another 10 to 20 years, at which time if that happened you would be back to the baseline symptoms you started with. But aging and stuff...everything is changed and probably not in our favor. The bounceback, healing, and resiliency just isn't there like 20 years ago.
Actually I think a mere 1 year on a drug will change things for a long time if not forever. I know when I came off zyprexa after 8 years it took a full 3 months to feel stabilized, another 3 months to see my true baseline, and now 12 months later I still feel addicted to it like whatever it did is not going to undo anytime soon.
I like your natural approach. Keep focusing on that, find the best ones and best doses. Maybe they will never replace a med but I bet they can cut down on the doses needed.
You might have to explore other anxiety/depression drugs, whatever you haven't already. Things in the SSRI family, possibly zyprexa, possibly a mood stabilizer like depakote, lithium, lamictal, gabapentin. With the SSRIs time is needed. With the others though if you have really bad side effects to begin with, it is my opinion to walk away and move on to the next. In studying posts of people that have reported on and rated their meds, practically everyone who had really bad side effects in the start either did not get better or got worse. If side effects are mild, keep with it and give it a fair go.
You probably feel trapped. I do too. Actually I think 1000s of us do. So you aren't alone. We have to do the best we can and explore other avenues we haven't tried.
One more thought. Nardil.
Posted by Phillipa on January 8, 2008, at 19:22:59
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever??, posted by Squiggles on January 8, 2008, at 10:42:44
Squiggles excellent point as my whole family though very small all have anxiety issues just some don't take benzos drink instead. Self medication. And since my thyroid dose is now lower could that be why I'm so tired and maybe need less benzos? After so many years wouldn't know what normal anxiety is. Sad but true. Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on January 8, 2008, at 19:33:04
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever?? » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on January 8, 2008, at 19:22:59
> Squiggles excellent point as my whole family though very small all have anxiety issues just some don't take benzos drink instead. Self medication. And since my thyroid dose is now lower could that be why I'm so tired and maybe need less benzos? After so many years wouldn't know what normal anxiety is. Sad but true. Phillipa
Low thyroid levels are notorious for
fatigue, puffiness, slow mentation,
weight gain, lethargy, rough skin,
sleepiness - just basically slowed down
metabolism; you might look at it as
a natural tranquillizer, but it's not
good for your heart and other organs.
I'm on the low side-- not clinically but
close to hypothyroidism; lithium does that.http://www.endocrineweb.com/tests.html
Squiggles
Posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 21:57:45
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever??, posted by bleauberry on January 8, 2008, at 19:00:26
I am truly beginning to believe the "reset" brain theory and saddened to think I am indeed trapped. And Bleauberry I agree that many many people also feel trapped in a chemically changed brain.
I do not wish to be on almost 2mg. xanax when I become elderly. Valium is indeed OUT as it caused me depression much worse than I knew before. As I said xanax lasts much longer in my system for some reason; 8 hrs. or 10 hrs. between doses is very doable for me.
That said, I will determine to be positive about making change even if small, in getting the xanax dosage down possibly with another med. such as the trileptal; the taper off that is less hellish than benzos anyway.
I will also Google Nardil and bring it up with my pdoc next week. If the Nardil can help my depression, will it also help the anxiety of benzo withdrawal? With God all things are possible.
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 8, 2008, at 22:18:03
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever?? » bleauberry, posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 21:57:45
> I am truly beginning to believe the "reset" brain theory and saddened to think I am indeed trapped. And Bleauberry I agree that many many people also feel trapped in a chemically changed brain.
>
> I do not wish to be on almost 2mg. xanax when I become elderly. Valium is indeed OUT as it caused me depression much worse than I knew before. As I said xanax lasts much longer in my system for some reason; 8 hrs. or 10 hrs. between doses is very doable for me.
>
> That said, I will determine to be positive about making change even if small, in getting the xanax dosage down possibly with another med. such as the trileptal; the taper off that is less hellish than benzos anyway.
>
> I will also Google Nardil and bring it up with my pdoc next week. If the Nardil can help my depression, will it also help the anxiety of benzo withdrawal? With God all things are possible.
>
>Personally, I have found a lower need for clonazepam while on Nardil. Maybe it is because it increases brain GABA, which has a relaxing and slight sedative effect. I'm not sure if it helps people quit benzos but it definitely helps some people with anxiety!
Phoenix1
Posted by bleauberry on January 9, 2008, at 17:46:17
In reply to Re: Do 20+ years of benzos change brain forever?? » bleauberry, posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2008, at 21:57:45
> I will also Google Nardil and bring it up with my pdoc next week. If the Nardil can help my depression, will it also help the anxiety of benzo withdrawal? With God all things are possible.
>
>I agree. God is still in the miracle business. We often look for the sudden miracles, but I usually see God work in a methodical patient fashion.
Here's an idea. For longterm discontinuation of benzo, well, make it a longterm strategy. For example, get good with a razor blade or knife at whittling off tiny pieces of a pill, or split a pill in two to get easier access to remove a tiny crumb of a corner. Reduce dosage by crumbs, removing a little bit more on a weekly basis. That's how I got off zyprexa. Took months. But it worked. It gives the brain time to adjust to what is happening without having to deal with a shock or a trauma. For some of us, reducing a dose from 2mg to 1.75mg would be shock and trauma. Just take off a crumb, maybe make that 2mg turn into 1.95mg, a week later 1.9mg, stay at 1.85mg for a couple weeks, and so on. Doses will never be exact, but I believe the inexactness actually helps the brain to figure out how to take over and work on its own.
Some of us may need medication help the rest of our lives. I wish I knew why.
Nardil can help with all your symptoms. Mileage varies. It does have effects on GABA which is one reason I had mentioned it.
This is the end of the thread.
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