![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on October 1, 2007, at 23:09:54
Long time, no post- study has really got me bogged down....!
For those of you who use Nardil- do any of you have breakthrough depressions, and if so, what do you do (medication wise)
My world has turned black over the past 8 days....not good....! Was a huge effort to even get out of bed today....I am questioning all factors in my life as possible causes.
fall 8 times, rise 9 times!Ace
Posted by your#1fan on October 1, 2007, at 23:21:17
In reply to Attn all Nardil users!, posted by ace on October 1, 2007, at 23:09:54
did you read my post above?
do you maybe need to be on multiple antidpressants, i swear if it wasnt for Prozac i would not be where i was.... but i also could have a back fire.
Maybe its just a sudden change in life for you? did you get tolerant to it?
Have you had a depression breakdown.
I have had those awful mornings where you just want to lay there. But i jump out of the bed, take prozac and deal with life.
You have to make life in a happy scene, but really sometimes inside you really could care less...
Im a prozac person, but im concerned about this nardil.... did it just stop working? MAOI are pretty potent, in the past you said it really worked...
Ace im so sorry, just know that depression is your enemy and wants to destroy your life. Dont let the demon get you.
I've been wondering where you have been!
Posted by tecknohed on October 2, 2007, at 7:07:41
In reply to Attn all Nardil users!, posted by ace on October 1, 2007, at 23:09:54
Hi Ace!
I no longer take Nardil, but I remember an occasion when I got brief relief whilst in similar circumstances (whilst on Nardil).
You still on a benzo? (xanax isn't it?)
One time, whilst on Nardil + clonazepam I decided to try & quit the clon (was feeling too lethargic). As I lowered the dose I became MUCH more 'activated'. This lasted a week then I needed to go back to my previous dose of clon 'cause my anxiety started up again. Still, it was enough to break the cycle - for a while. Just a thought.
Posted by tecknohed on October 2, 2007, at 7:11:59
In reply to Attn all Nardil users!, posted by ace on October 1, 2007, at 23:09:54
I forgot to add that my mood went up too.
best wishes,
teck
Posted by stargazer2 on October 2, 2007, at 12:39:17
In reply to Attn all Nardil users!, posted by ace on October 1, 2007, at 23:09:54
Hi Ace, I have always read your posts and been envious of your continued success on Nardil. How long has it been helpful to you and what did you mean by fall 8, rise 9 times, was this your success/failure record with Nardil or overall with depression?
I started on Nardil this year in May after being on Emsam and over the past 5 months have had varying degrees of success with Nardil. Some of the add-ons have included Abilify, Buproprion (OK on generic, but not good on the generic called budeprion), Amphetamine (hypertensive crisis at 10 mg, OK on 2.5 and 5 mg), Lamictal (no effect).
On 8/17 I began Nortriptylline 25. I was already on Nardil 30 which I had reduced from 45 after the hypertensive crisis. I also saw an endocrinologist and my TSH level was normal, but slightly higher than they liked, given my history of TRD. I began synthroid 50 mcg on 8/15.
The Nortriptyline was increased to 75 mg but reduced to 50 mg based on my SE of severe dry mouth and dizziness.
I also increased the Nardil from 30 back to 45 at the end of August as my mood remained poor. The addition of these 3 meds (Synthroid, Nortriptylline and Nardil) has brought me to a place right now that feels fairly stable.
What meds are you currently on? What other meds have you tried with nardil? I know Wellbutrin, Abilify and Lamictal are OK with Nardil. NOrtriptylline is not offically sanctioned with Nardil but I have read the TCA's are ok with the exception of anafrnil.
I hope you find something that turns your depression around quickly. You have had such success in the past with Nardil, I hope you get to that place again soon.
Stargazer
Posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2007, at 13:24:41
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users!/Ace, posted by stargazer2 on October 2, 2007, at 12:39:17
Ace still in school and did you mean falling? You know I care about you. Phillipa
Posted by ace on October 2, 2007, at 22:14:24
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users!, posted by your#1fan on October 1, 2007, at 23:21:17
> did you read my post above?
No- sorry, I will but!
>
> do you maybe need to be on multiple antidpressants, i swear if it wasnt for Prozac i would not be where i was.... but i also could have a back fire.With Nardil it is hard....I have tried many before....usually an atypical does the job. Or Tramadol- that does the job BIG time! bad depression withdrawal however.
> Maybe its just a sudden change in life for you? did you get tolerant to it?
I'm not sure. I am doing an extremely hard year at university. The maths I am doing is very taxing on me mentally, and I am also trying to maintain and do so many things at once. I usually work til 4-5am, then sleep to 1pm.....
I am getting older and am feeling worried about such things as forming a relationship, and becoming financially self-sufficient. I do put myself under extreme pressures. I am very obsessive!
My life style is not conducive to living a healthy life. However i feel 'trapped' in it.
>
> Have you had a depression breakdown.Many.
>
> I have had those awful mornings where you just want to lay there. But i jump out of the bed, take prozac and deal with life.I really feel glad for you. I understand those awful morning feelings, and that urge to do nothing. And all the psychotherapy in the world can't help me. But congrats to you...you deserve it!
>
> You have to make life in a happy scene, but really sometimes inside you really could care less...In the depression....it's like that. I just brood and writhe in my bed. I really can't stand it. I just tell myself 'endure'.
>
> Im a prozac person, but im concerned about this nardil.... did it just stop working? MAOI are pretty potent, in the past you said it really worked...No. I think over time my body has become immune to it's effects and it takes less to cause a relapse. However, last night I rammed up the dose to 90mg. Withing 8 hours, the depression was better, withoubt doubt. However, the OCD has come back. My brain is in a messy area now.
>
> Ace im so sorry, just know that depression is your enemy and wants to destroy your life. Dont let the demon get you.Certainly not! If i will do one thing....that is endure until life takes me away....
> I've been wondering where you have been!
Don't worry- I will always be a psycho-babbler! Even when I don't post much, I really think about you guys and gals a lot. You are a wonderful bunch!Peace to you and thankYOU!
Ace
Posted by ace on October 2, 2007, at 22:20:10
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users! » ace, posted by tecknohed on October 2, 2007, at 7:07:41
> Hi Ace!
Hi mate!
>
> I no longer take Nardil, but I remember an occasion when I got brief relief whilst in similar circumstances (whilst on Nardil).
>
> You still on a benzo? (xanax isn't it?)That';s right- down to 1mg/day. Still an awesome drug!
>
> One time, whilst on Nardil + clonazepam I decided to try & quit the clon (was feeling too lethargic). As I lowered the dose I became MUCH more 'activated'. This lasted a week then I needed to go back to my previous dose of clon 'cause my anxiety started up again. Still, it was enough to break the cycle - for a while. Just a thought.
Thanks mate- much appreciated. There are so many variables here- I think I have to take stock of my life as such- form a social network, exercise, stop smoking. I am not a fan of psychotherapy, but I do feel environmental factors are playing against me.Actually clonazepam is a drug I would love to try- but Australian law prevents it being prescribed unless there is a bona-fide epilepsy.
Nardil is still great- i think i just have to get some discipline maybe? But i do have OCD now to deal with!
Mental illness sux!
Thanks again for your reply and hope you are feeling well mate!
Ace.
Posted by ace on October 2, 2007, at 22:26:16
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users! » ace, posted by tecknohed on October 2, 2007, at 7:11:59
> I forgot to add that my mood went up too.
Good to here teck!
> best wishes,
> teck
Posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2007, at 22:29:17
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users! +raquo; tecknohed, posted by ace on October 2, 2007, at 22:20:10
Ace they say all health professionals have some OCD. Love Phillipa
Posted by ace on October 2, 2007, at 22:42:30
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users!/Ace, posted by stargazer2 on October 2, 2007, at 12:39:17
> Hi Ace, I have always read your posts and been envious of your continued success on Nardil. How long has it been helpful to you and what did you mean by fall 8, rise 9 times, was this your success/failure record with Nardil or overall with depression?
No no. Nardil usually is wonderful. I screwed around with the dose and payed the price. I brought my dose up last night- within 8 hours was feeling much better. nardil really is a life saver! Yesterday I felt very down. When I said fall 8 times, rise 9- that is my personaly philosophy- never give in. Even when I am writhing in depression, I must soldier on.
>
> I started on Nardil this year in May after being on Emsam and over the past 5 months have had varying degrees of success with Nardil. Some of the add-ons have included Abilify, Buproprion (OK on generic, but not good on the generic called budeprion), Amphetamine (hypertensive crisis at 10 mg, OK on 2.5 and 5 mg), Lamictal (no effect).With nardil- you REALLY have to be patient some-times. It can take a dose of 90mg for 12 weeks to kick in...and when it kicks in- boy you will know about it!!!
The add-ons have been to augment Nardil, or for other ailments?
>
> On 8/17 I began Nortriptylline 25. I was already on Nardil 30 which I had reduced from 45 after the hypertensive crisis. I also saw an endocrinologist and my TSH level was normal, but slightly higher than they liked, given my history of TRD. I began synthroid 50 mcg on 8/15.I wouldn't recommend TCA's with MAOI's- although they have been used with success. I havent seen enough evidence to see they creat a robust response. But, for the right person, they could.
> The Nortriptyline was increased to 75 mg but reduced to 50 mg based on my SE of severe dry mouth and dizziness.
>
> I also increased the Nardil from 30 back to 45 at the end of August as my mood remained poor. The addition of these 3 meds (Synthroid, Nortriptylline and Nardil) has brought me to a place right now that feels fairly stable.Ok- from what I have read here, I personally don't think you have given Nardil a high enough dose for a long enough time. 30mg, in most, does not really do to mich i feel. 60mg seems to be the MINIMUM. But if you are stable now, maybe stick with this? But one part of me feels that you might fly high on 90mg! So it's a hard one!
Nardil monotherapy, or with one add-on, can really do the trick, with the right doses.> What meds are you currently on?
Nardil- 90mg (was on 60mg- need the extra 30mg)
Xanax 1mg
Seroquel- 25mgContemplating trying different atypicals for the OCD- my OCD is a very severe case.
What other meds have you tried with nardil?
So many! Here is some...
Lithium
Lamictal
Zyprexa
Pindolol
Clonodine
Wellbutrine
2 TCA's (forgot which ones)
NRI
Neurontinmany more too!
None have really done much, except Seroquel and Zyprexa.
I know Wellbutrin, Abilify and Lamictal are OK with Nardil. NOrtriptylline is not offically sanctioned with Nardil but I have read the TCA's are ok with the exception of anafrnil.
They are- I still would proceed with caution. I have taken so many drugs/foos containdicated with Nardil. No probs 99% of the time. maybe someone need to update the monograph!
> I hope you find something that turns your depression around quickly. You have had such success in the past with Nardil, I hope you get to that place again soon.
Thanks! well the 90mg did it- within 8 hours!
Now OCD is my next fish to fry!Thanks so much mate- you take good care.
Ace
>
> Stargazer
Posted by ace on October 2, 2007, at 22:46:14
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users!/Ace, posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2007, at 13:24:41
> Ace still in school and did you mean falling? You know I care about you. Phillipa
Yep- I am under tremendous pressure with my study....doing very abstract maths- one of the hardest units I have done. not sure if this played a role in my relapse.
That was just my personally philosophy! if i fall 8 times, I'll get up 9 times!!!!
NEVER give in!!!
Thanks heaps Phillipa- you are a good person- and hope you are doing wonderful!
Ace:)
Posted by Ron Hill on October 3, 2007, at 2:23:27
In reply to Attn all Nardil users!, posted by ace on October 1, 2007, at 23:09:54
Ace – The Nardil Champion,
Hello Mate. Springtime coming down-under, aye Mate?
Why did you reduce your Nardil dosage down from 90 mg/day in the first place? Why have you been screwing around with the dosage?
Could part of the problem be that you have your circadian clock out of sync by staying up until 4 or 5 am, and sleeping until 1 pm?
I’m the same way, Ace. I like to work in my home office until about 5 am and then go to bed. My energy kicks in at about 10 pm and stays good, until 5 am. Further, no phones ringing, wife has gone to bed, and I can totally focus on my work.
However, in doing this, I’ve got my circadian clock out of sync with the rotation of the earth, and as a result, I have lower energy during the day. Ace, could this be part of the reason for your bout with breakthrough depression? I don’t presume to know, I’m just asking.
For reasons that I will identify further down, the following tx is probably not appropriate for you. But, can I tell you about it anyway? Was that a yes? Good. Thanks Mate! Here goes:
Perhaps you could add-on between 20 mg/day to 60 mg/day of 2-phenylethylamine (PEA). Small open studies show that there is about an 80% chance that PEA will instantly snap you out of depression.
Ace, are you familiar with 2-phenylethylamine? PEA is a trace neurotransmitter endogenous to the brain. The trace amine is released in higher than usual amounts when people fall in love. You know the PEA feeling that I'm taking about, right? The love-sick sap walks around happy and smiling ear-to-ear all day long. All he can think about is the new love of his life. This is PEA.
For people NOT on an MAOI, the MAO-B (and to a much smaller extent, the MAO-A) metabolize PEA very quickly. Therefore, PEA cannot be used as an antidepressant for people that are NOT on an MAOI because the PEA does not last long enough in the brain. However, for a patient on a full dose of Nardil, the MAO-B and MAO-A are inactivated and, therefore, are not available to metabolize PEA. Under these conditions, PEA can be used as an add-on antidepressant. It should be noted that 5 to 10 mg/day of l-deprenyl is typically used as the MAOI, but studies show that Nardil also works.
I am a rapid cycler, and I cycle with a period of 15 days, consisting of three days of atypical depression (no energy, no motivation, sleep too much, etc), followed by 12 days of normal mood state (3 + 12 = 15). Then the cycle repeats over, and over, and over, on an ongoing basis.
Last week, during my most recent 3-day depressive phase, I added 30 mg/day of PEA to my current cocktail of Nardill (90 mg/day) and three AED’s (Trileptal, Lamictal, and Keppra). It was absolutely amazing how fast PEA took away my depression. I found it best to split the daily dosage in half and take the first half when I got up and the second half around mid-afternoon.
Unfortunately, my PEA trial was unsuccessful because withdrawal from the PEA, after my three days of use, was absolutely horrendous!! In the long run, the "cure" was worse than my usual three days of depression.
So, why not use the PEA all the time and, thereby, avoid the withdrawals? Well, for a few reasons. The endogenous levels of PEA are abnormally low during depression, but the PEA levels return to normal when the patient is not depressed. Therefore, it would raise my PEA levels too high if I were to add exogenous PEA during the 12 days per cycle when I am not depressed.Further, PEA acts like an endogenous amphetamine. The endogenous amphetamine is less mood destabilizing than an exogenous amphetamine. But none-the-less, some patients taking PEA on a long-term basis can experience anxiety and irritability.
Ace, if I recall correctly, I think that I remember that you have an anxiety disorder in addition to your OCD and atypical depression dx. So, long-term use of PEA might end up being problematic for you. Therefore, PEA is not likely not for you. But, thanks for letting me tell the story, Mate!!You are a smart man, Ace. You will figure out the solution to this breakthrough depression.
-- Ron
Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling (15 day cycle), and mild Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
875 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
Posted by back4abit on October 3, 2007, at 3:59:45
In reply to Attn all Nardil users!, posted by ace on October 1, 2007, at 23:09:54
> Long time, no post- study has really got me bogged down....!
>
> For those of you who use Nardil- do any of you have breakthrough depressions, and if so, what do you do (medication wise)
>
> My world has turned black over the past 8 days....not good....! Was a huge effort to even get out of bed today....I am questioning all factors in my life as possible causes.
>
>
> fall 8 times, rise 9 times!
>
> Ace
>
>Are you familiar with the giant movement concerning the re formulation of nardil?perhaps this can be a factor?
Posted by stargazer2 on October 3, 2007, at 7:23:01
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users!/Ace » stargazer2, posted by ace on October 2, 2007, at 22:42:30
Ace,
I added a TCA after reading about the safety of it in a journal called "Current Psychiatry, Vol. 1/June 2002". I gave my pdoc a copy of it. Also I know SLS was taking a TCA with Nardil.Here's the link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061003/msgs/693453.htmlHope that works so you can read the article.
I have tried 60 mg of Nardil but got extremely light headed with BP as low as 70/40 and also had severe GI slowing with severe gas and Constipation , so I had to reduce the dosage to 45 which I now take. The 30 was my reaction to the hypertensive episode, which scared me to death (my pdoc too!).
I was on Nardil 15 mg twice a day in 1989 (the original formula) until it stopped working for me. In retrospect, the dosage was very low and should have been raised but instead I was started on Prozac, the newly released wonder drug.
I also took Marplan with great success in 1991 until 1994 until Roche discontinued it since it was losing sales after Prozac and other newer drugs were released.
What time do you take the Nardil? DO you split the dosage of 90 or take it once a day.
As far as the poster is saying about the reformulation of Nardil in 2004, I believe it doesn't work like the original since the pill coating breaks down more easily than the original thus affecting absorption times.
Great chatting with you and glad to hear you're up and running again.
SG
Posted by ace on October 4, 2007, at 1:14:56
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users!/Ace, posted by stargazer2 on October 3, 2007, at 7:23:01
> Ace,
> I added a TCA after reading about the safety of it in a journal called "Current Psychiatry, Vol. 1/June 2002". I gave my pdoc a copy of it. Also I know SLS was taking a TCA with Nardil.
Cheers mate- i have this article at home- it's a very good article- esp with regards to it's comments on hypertensive problems. I feel you are, for the greater part, safer at HOME than in a hospital when suffering this syndrome. In my experience and what I have read, this is the case!New doctors simply do not know the mechanisms of MAOI's- it's that simple. They are not taught about them at all, except that they are 'scary' meds, with a huge list of contraindications.
I think it is generally safe, but can pose several additional s/effects (mostly annoyances).
However, ofcourse, stay clear of Anafranil. Generally better to start the TCA first I feel too.In addition, I havent seen a substantial thereaputic benefit, in using the two together. However, that is certainly not to say that the two could produce a robust effect.
I think the TCA's are wonderful drugs- their only problem being that doctors keep their dose too LOW (in contrast to SSRI's- I'm not a big fan!)
But yes, I know Scott was taking and has taken many TCA's with MAOI's with success.
So, i would say if it works for you, go for it!
cheers!
Ace> Here's the link:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061003/msgs/693453.html
>
> Hope that works so you can read the article.
>
> I have tried 60 mg of Nardil but got extremely light headed with BP as low as 70/40 and also had severe GI slowing with severe gas and Constipation ,How long did you try and stick it out with these s/effects??
so I had to reduce the dosage to 45 which I now take. The 30 was my reaction to the hypertensive episode, which scared me to death (my pdoc too!).They ARE very scary....In know from experience! But they usually always abate- even without medical assistance! But, always best to be safe!!!
> I was on Nardil 15 mg twice a day in 1989 (the original formula) until it stopped working for me. In retrospect, the dosage was very low and should have been raised but instead I was started on Prozac, the newly released wonder drug.That dose is VERY small....far too small to access the drug.
> I also took Marplan with great success in 1991 until 1994 until Roche discontinued it since it was losing sales after Prozac and other newer drugs were released.
Marplan was a winner. Seen great things about this. Wonder why they discontinued it?! hmmm...maybe something to do with $$$??!!
> What time do you take the Nardil? DO you split the dosage of 90 or take it once a day.30 mane. 45 nocte.
However, it is best to split it as much as possible in my experience.
> As far as the poster is saying about the reformulation of Nardil in 2004, I believe it doesn't work like the original since the pill coating breaks down more easily than the original thus affecting absorption times.
This is weird- it has always been a winner. But I believe Link supply Australians with the old formulation. I have spoken to officials about this, and recieved the response that it's active AND inactive ingredients are 100% equivalent.
Hmmm...want to look further into this.> Great chatting with you and glad to hear you're up and running again.
>
> SG
No probs champ- keep soldiering on!
Ace:)
Posted by ace on October 4, 2007, at 1:46:36
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users! » ace, posted by Ron Hill on October 3, 2007, at 2:23:27
> Ace – The Nardil Champion,
>
> Hello Mate. Springtime coming down-under, aye Mate?Certainly is mate! I am feeling the heat very much so now. I prefer the winter:)
>
> Why did you reduce your Nardil dosage down from 90 mg/day in the first place? Why have you been screwing around with the dosage?Well essentially, I prefer to be on the lowest possible dose which retains efficacy. But I went too low!
> Could part of the problem be that you have your circadian clock out of sync by staying up until 4 or 5 am, and sleeping until 1 pm?Yes- absolutely. I am being obsessional here (suprise, suprise!) I am trying to do so so many things in such a short time. I work all night on study and other projects, am too tired to have a shower, and smoke and drink far too much coffee. I feel trapped but- know what I mean? It's like I feel I must do these things. I am getting older and want to achieve. But at the same time, I have no social life and am concerned about this- I do want to find a partner and have kids. But i do have to become far more self-sufficent and responsible. I am in a bad frame, but I will find a way out, somehow! I just put so much pressure on myself- and I feel very guilty if I am not doing something productive.
But you are absolutely right- I AM putting my circadian rhythm all out of wack.
> I’m the same way, Ace. I like to work in my home office until about 5 am and then go to bed. My energy kicks in at about 10 pm and stays good, until 5 am. Further, no phones ringing, wife has gone to bed, and I can totally focus on my work.I can understand. My neuroanatomy lecturer gave me the BEST description why some of us do this- she said at night 'the world goes away' We can have complete focus
> However, in doing this, I’ve got my circadian clock out of sync with the rotation of the earth, and as a result, I have lower energy during the day. Ace, could this be part of the reason for your bout with breakthrough depression? I don’t presume to know, I’m just asking.
YES- absolutely I think. It is not healthy to live a life in this way. I am not being sensible i.e. eating crap food, smoking. These things are not good. They are within my contol but, and I have to summon my discipline to change them.
Do you feel your late nights could contribute to any existing problems?
>
> For reasons that I will identify further down, the following tx is probably not appropriate for you. But, can I tell you about it anyway? Was that a yes? Good. Thanks Mate! Here goes:Ofcourse mate!!!
> Perhaps you could add-on between 20 mg/day to 60 mg/day of 2-phenylethylamine (PEA). Small open studies show that there is about an 80% chance that PEA will instantly snap you out of depression.Totally restricted in Australia to onle a couple of psychopathologies. However, i could get my hands on it due to my differential diagnosis. Did you see the studies in Pubmed?? I have thought of this before
>
> Ace, are you familiar with 2-phenylethylamine? PEA is a trace neurotransmitter endogenous to the brain. The trace amine is released in higher than usual amounts when people fall in love. You know the PEA feeling that I'm taking about, right?Yep, familiar with this all. Have to refresh a few things but! I am extremely interested in this as it correlates to some of my experiences with nardil.
The love-sick sap walks around happy and smiling ear-to-ear all day long. All he can think about is the new love of his life. This is PEA.
>
> For people NOT on an MAOI, the MAO-B (and to a much smaller extent, the MAO-A) metabolize PEA very quickly. Therefore, PEA cannot be used as an antidepressant for people that are NOT on an MAOI because the PEA does not last long enough in the brain. However, for a patient on a full dose of Nardil, the MAO-B and MAO-A are inactivated and, therefore, are not available to metabolize PEA. Under these conditions, PEA can be used as an add-on antidepressant. It should be noted that 5 to 10 mg/day of l-deprenyl is typically used as the MAOI, but studies show that Nardil also works.This is something I am DEFINATELY interested in. Thanks heaps for reminding me of this- i will print this message out.
> I am a rapid cycler, and I cycle with a period of 15 days, consisting of three days of atypical depression (no energy, no motivation, sleep too much, etc), followed by 12 days of normal mood state (3 + 12 = 15). Then the cycle repeats over, and over, and over, on an ongoing basis.
>
> Last week, during my most recent 3-day depressive phase, I added 30 mg/day of PEA to my current cocktail of Nardill (90 mg/day) and three AED’s (Trileptal, Lamictal, and Keppra). It was absolutely amazing how fast PEA took away my depression. I found it best to split the daily dosage in half and take the first half when I got up and the second half around mid-afternoon.How quickly was the depression alleived?
> Unfortunately, my PEA trial was unsuccessful because withdrawal from the PEA, after my three days of use, was absolutely horrendous!! In the long run, the "cure" was worse than my usual three days of depression.This reminds me of the mu-opiod stimulation i get from tramadol...It is unbelievable, but then the withdrawal is very hard.
> So, why not use the PEA all the time and, thereby, avoid the withdrawals? Well, for a few reasons. The endogenous levels of PEA are abnormally low during depression, but the PEA levels return to normal when the patient is not depressed. Therefore, it would raise my PEA levels too high if I were to add exogenous PEA during the 12 days per cycle when I am not depressed.
>
> Further, PEA acts like an endogenous amphetamine. The endogenous amphetamine is less mood destabilizing than an exogenous amphetamine. But none-the-less, some patients taking PEA on a long-term basis can experience anxiety and irritability.I will have to fully assimilate this all. Will print this out. This information is very helpful!
> Ace, if I recall correctly, I think that I remember that you have an anxiety disorder in addition to your OCD and atypical depression dx.Diagnosis (Ib really don't care too much for 'labels' but)
1. Depression
2. OCD (with mild psychotic ideation of a self-referential nature). Very Atypical.
3. Depersonalization Disorder with phobic Anxiety
4. GAD
5. Social phobia (this now has been eradicated due to Nardil)Plus I am sure of have Axis 11 issues.
So, long-term use of PEA might end up being problematic for you. Therefore, PEA is not likely not for you. But, thanks for letting me tell the story, Mate!!
ThankYOU for telling it! You really have done your research, which i feel is great. I feel too many 'patients' don't really care so much for doing any research into their conditions/drugs.
I feel this can be disempowering.
>
> You are a smart man, Ace. You will figure out the solution to this breakthrough depression.Cheers Ron- Your preety smart yourself! Thanks so much for everything mate- and I truly hope you stay in good health!
speak soon!
Ace:)>
> -- Ron
>
> Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling (15 day cycle), and mild Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)
>
> 600 mg/day Trileptal
> 200 mg/day Lamictal
> 875 mg/day Keppra
> 90 mg/day Nardil
>
Posted by ace on October 4, 2007, at 1:49:46
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users!, posted by back4abit on October 3, 2007, at 3:59:45
> > Long time, no post- study has really got me bogged down....!
> >
> > For those of you who use Nardil- do any of you have breakthrough depressions, and if so, what do you do (medication wise)
> >
> > My world has turned black over the past 8 days....not good....! Was a huge effort to even get out of bed today....I am questioning all factors in my life as possible causes.
> >
> >
> > fall 8 times, rise 9 times!
> >
> > Ace
> >
> >
>
> Are you familiar with the giant movement concerning the re formulation of nardil?perhaps this can be a factor?Hi mate:)
Yes- heard all about this. I have rang up my supplier and spoke to the head honcho. I believe without doubt I am taking the original Nardil formulation. But I question why the FDA in the States changed incipients.
Hope all is well:)
AceCheers mate
Posted by Ron Hill on October 4, 2007, at 7:26:05
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users! » Ron Hill, posted by ace on October 4, 2007, at 1:46:36
Ace,
Sometime in the next couple of days, I plan to reply to the post you sent to me. But, for right now, I want to send you two articles regarding PEA augmentation of Nardil.
However, since the Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences does not offer free access to their full text versions, I had to find a back door that allows us to access the full text versions of the two articles of interest.
The directions to the back door are kinda hard to explain, but here goes:
1. Click here: http://bjsm.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/35/5/342
2. Go to the bottom of the page you just pulled up, and click on Register for Access.
3. Fill out the registration information.
SIDE NOTE: Perhaps you will be automatically routed to the full text version of the “PEA and Exercise” article after registering. If so, you can skip steps 4 and 5. Also, the full title of the article is “Phenylethylamine, a possible link to the antidepressant effects of exercise?”; but I will call it “PEA and Exercise” for short.
4. Click on the link in Step 1 above.
5. Fill in your user name and password that you just got when you registered. The full text of the “PEA and Exercise” article will come up on your screen.
6. Scroll down until you get to the References section at the bottom of the “PEA and Exercise” full text article. Now we have arrived at the back door. The two articles we want are Reference 2 and Reference 3. Click on one of them.
7. The abstract of the article will come up. In the menu box on the right hand side of the page, (directly adjacent to the abstract text), click the first entry; Full Text (PDF).
8. If you’re patient, the pdf text will come up in a minute or so. If you’ve got ants in your pants, you can save 30 seconds or so by clicking [Begin manual download].
9. Read the article, then go back to the References listed in the “PEA and Exercise” article and get the second one that we want.
10. If you have time, the article that I've been calling “PEA and Exercise” is worth scanning over. Real name = "Phenylethylamine, a possible link to the antidepressant effects of exercise?"
Hey, one last thing, Ace. PEA is an OTC. I bought my here: http://www.americannutrition.com/store/UNPEA.htmlHonest, polite and helpful brick and mortar store staff, safe, fast, and no problems. I used my credit card online for extra safety.
The capsules are 250 mg, which is WAY TOO MUCH to take with Nardil. The dosages discussed in the articles are 10 to 30 mg/day in one article, and 20 to 60 mg/day in the other (if my memory is correct).
Ace, I will talk to you more about this when I respond to your post, but I do not think that PEA augmentation of your Nardil is wise for you. My gut feeling is that it would eventually make you irritable with high anxiety. Your GAD is likely not a good fit.
However, if you do decide to try it, please talk to me first. Send me a babble-mail message 'cause I do not check the board very often. Promise me that you will try to keep your dosage down around 20 or 30 mg, and NEVER go above 60 mg/day.
Start low and go slow. You're smart, do not screw yourself up and end up worse off than you are.
Monitor your blood pressure. Do you have a blood pressure measuring machine? Do you have a hypertensive antidote (e.g.; nifedipine) with you at all times? IMHO, everyone taking an MAOI like Nardil, should have both.
Nowhere in the literature do I find anyone concerned about hypertensive crisis with this PEA augmentation. However, better safe than sorry.
As I told you previously, I took it for 3 days, with excellent results. But, the withdrawal was torturous.
I attempted to estimate 10 mg dose sizes and I took them bid. To say the least, it's difficult to estimate how much 10 mg is out of a 250 mg pile.
My blood pressure jumped from my usual 110/70 to 142/84 after my first 10 mg dose, and it stayed there throughout the three day trial.
Rule #1: Nobody gets hurt!
Rule #2: Don't forget Rule #1!!I care about you, Mate. Be smart, do your p-homework before changing your meds, and don't do anything stupid.
-- Ron
Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling (15 day cycle), and mild Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
875 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
Posted by djmmm on October 6, 2007, at 7:51:48
In reply to Re: Attn all Nardil users! » Ron Hill, posted by ace on October 4, 2007, at 1:46:36
FWIW, Phenelzine is metabolized into PEA (Phenylethylamine)... My theorey is that it is THIS aspect of Nardil that makes it the most effective/profound antidepressant.
Posted by djmmm on October 6, 2007, at 8:00:27
In reply to PEA Augmentation of Nardil » ace, posted by Ron Hill on October 4, 2007, at 7:26:05
From my experience... supplemented PEA combined with either Nardil OR Parnate causes rapid hypertension.
I've tried PEA with all MAOI's, and have found it ONLY effective and safe with Selegiline. The PEA/Selegiline experience is very "MDMA" like (pleasent, euphoric), while the PEA/Parnate or PEA/Nardil experience was VERY uncomfortable (tachycardia, flushing, headache)
I have taken conventional stimulants with Parnate and Nardil and NEVER experienced any hypertension. Needless to say, I was VERY surprised that even the smallest amount of PEA combined with parnate or Nardil, caused such horrendous problems.
Posted by stargazer2 on October 6, 2007, at 16:19:43
In reply to Re: PEA Augmentation of Nardil, posted by djmmm on October 6, 2007, at 8:00:27
salts (generic adderall) at 10 mg. 5 mg was OK though. I will never add a stim to nardil again, too risky for me.
But I am on Pamelor and Nardil and TCA's are officially contraindicated but I have read about them being used together safely with the exception of the TCA, Anafranil.
Tread carefully when combining Nardil w any stimulant. Low doses may be OK, as I had no rxn with 5 mg amphetamine salts.
Stargazer
Posted by Ron Hill on October 8, 2007, at 16:49:00
In reply to Re: PEA Augmentation of Nardil, posted by djmmm on October 6, 2007, at 8:00:27
djmmm,
Thanks for posting your experiences with PEA and MAOIs.
What daily dosage of Nardil were you taking when you added PEA and had a hypertensive crisis?
How much PEA did you take with your Nardil dosage?
Do you remember the brand name of the PEA you took?
The only capsule size that I have found on-line is 250 mg. This is what I bought and tried, and it is an excellent brand of PEA. But obviously, 250 mg is WAY TOO MUCH to take with a full dosage of Nardil. This makes it difficult to accurately measure the proper PEA dose.
What method did you use to measure out your dosage sizes?
Here is the PEA product that I bought and safely used:
http://www.americannutrition.com/store/unique_nutrition_phenylethylamine.html
Thanks djmmm!
-- Ron
Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling (15 day cycle), and mild Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
875 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil----------------------------------------
> From my experience... supplemented PEA combined with either Nardil OR Parnate causes rapid hypertension.
>
> I've tried PEA with all MAOI's, and have found it ONLY effective and safe with Selegiline. The PEA/Selegiline experience is very "MDMA" like (pleasent, euphoric), while the PEA/Parnate or PEA/Nardil experience was VERY uncomfortable (tachycardia, flushing, headache)
>
> I have taken conventional stimulants with Parnate and Nardil and NEVER experienced any hypertension. Needless to say, I was VERY surprised that even the smallest amount of PEA combined with parnate or Nardil, caused such horrendous problems.
This is the end of the thread.
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