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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by leeholmes on September 13, 2007, at 7:49:47
Hi guys,
I have social anxiety along with a terrible memory and suspected adult ADD. I was searching for years to find something that would help, I tried everything from SSRI's (that made me much more anxious and angry) through to parnate. I tried countless over the counter meds (theanine, phenibut, fish oil, Tyrosine- you name it i triedit). After years of misery I stumbled a cross a combo which seemed to work perfect. It made me sociable, confident and calm with a clear head and improved memory to boot- It was a godsend. This combo was:
Dmae
Piracetam
Dlpa
Multi B vits
Lecithin
0.5gram of serbian clonazepam (ICN Galenika's Rivotril)This combo worked amazingly and never decreased in its effectiveness for 9 months. My uni grades rocketed, I was so sociable and made countless friends- for the first time in my life i felt alive.
Then my supplier stopped shipping the ICN Galenika Rivotril (clonazepam). I instead ordered some German Rivotri (made by Roche)but to my horror this did not seem to work in the same way- it was completely different (this seems to be the standard rivotril in europe). There was no sense of inner calm and i could feel that they would be addictive- even after 2 weeks at 0.5g (feeling horrible) i had withdrawal effects. I never had these effects from the ICN Galenika rivotril, even after a month off for my exams.
My post has 2 aims. To let those of you with simliar probs to me know about the great combo i found and to plead if any of you know of an online pharmacy where i could get hold of some ICN Galenika rivotril(its from serbia).I thought i had finally found a combo i could stay on for life and now i feel i am back to square one. please help
Posted by 6 underground on September 14, 2007, at 0:59:56
In reply to ICN Galenika Clonazepam Please read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by leeholmes on September 13, 2007, at 7:49:47
ill read this again in the morning im just so tired right now i've been reading posts and just am just mind drained, ill see what i can say.
take care
Posted by James_glasgow on September 14, 2007, at 2:18:09
In reply to ICN Galenika Clonazepam Please read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by leeholmes on September 13, 2007, at 7:49:47
> Hi guys,
>
> I have social anxiety along with a terrible memory and suspected adult ADD. I was searching for years to find something that would help, I tried everything from SSRI's (that made me much more anxious and angry) through to parnate. I tried countless over the counter meds (theanine, phenibut, fish oil, Tyrosine- you name it i triedit). After years of misery I stumbled a cross a combo which seemed to work perfect. It made me sociable, confident and calm with a clear head and improved memory to boot- It was a godsend. This combo was:
> Dmae
> Piracetam
> Dlpa
> Multi B vits
> Lecithin
> 0.5gram of serbian clonazepam (ICN Galenika's Rivotril)
>
> This combo worked amazingly and never decreased in its effectiveness for 9 months. My uni grades rocketed, I was so sociable and made countless friends- for the first time in my life i felt alive.
> Then my supplier stopped shipping the ICN Galenika Rivotril (clonazepam). I instead ordered some German Rivotri (made by Roche)but to my horror this did not seem to work in the same way- it was completely different (this seems to be the standard rivotril in europe). There was no sense of inner calm and i could feel that they would be addictive- even after 2 weeks at 0.5g (feeling horrible) i had withdrawal effects. I never had these effects from the ICN Galenika rivotril, even after a month off for my exams.
> My post has 2 aims. To let those of you with simliar probs to me know about the great combo i found and to plead if any of you know of an online pharmacy where i could get hold of some ICN Galenika rivotril(its from serbia).
>
> I thought i had finally found a combo i could stay on for life and now i feel i am back to square one. please helpHi there
First thing is, on this site you are not allowed to exchange information about where to obtain medicines other than from a pharmacy with a script from your own doctor. So you are likely to face some saction for posting and asking about it, but if you write to Dr Bob now and explain you did not know the rule you might be okay.
With regard to clonazepam, Roche products developed the drug and soley sold it themselves worldwide under the brand names Rivotril and Klonopin, however, in recent years as the drugs are off patent they have transfered the rights to use the product name in this case Rivotril to ICN (it differs from country to country but ICN also have the rights in some to use the name Mogadon, Librium, and Dalmane, whereas is others it is Valeant who old that license, and I think ICN might actually be at least part owned by Roche).
What this means is that clonazepam is clonazepam regardless of whether it is made by Roche or ICN or anyone else and there should technically be no difference between the products. The only thing I can think is that you dont have Rivotril Roche, are they beige in colour? Rivotril Roche 2mg is white and a quarter scored tablet and 0.5mg are beige and again quarter scored.
I would go and see your doctor and ask for script for the drug and get it from your local pharmacy.
Take care.
James
Posted by leeholmes on September 14, 2007, at 5:45:09
In reply to Re: ICN Galenika Clonazepam Please read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by James_glasgow on September 14, 2007, at 2:18:09
Thank's very much for the advice James, it was very helpful and just the type of response i was hoping for. I have heard what you said about the clonazepam being essentially the same regardless of where it is manufactured many times and i know it makes sense but to me there seems to be a lot of difference between the two varieties.
The latest Rivotril i have been taking is definetely made by Roche but seems to have different effects to the ICN Galenika variety i was taking beforehand. The latter variety almost disolved in your mouth and kicked in very quickly and gave me a very slight but long lasting sense of euphoria (or perhaps just contentment) and made be pro social as well as making me feel like the person i was meant to be (in conjunction with the other substances i mentioned). The German variety (standard euro clonazepam) does not make me pro social, takes hours to work (although I can only notice v slightly, even at double the dose). I am now starting to wonder whether the original ICN Galenika Rivotril was perhaps something else, as it came with a box but was packed in a plastic bag every time i ordered it. I thought it could be Xanax but the effects lasted way too long (24-36 hrs).
Has anyone got any further suggestions?
Posted by James_glasgow on September 14, 2007, at 7:05:27
In reply to Re: ICN Galenika Clonazepam Please read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by leeholmes on September 14, 2007, at 5:45:09
Yep, it could well have been something else. I think I know where you are coming from (there is a lot of medicines coming out of the old Yugoslavia through various routes). It could have been midazolam also. Clonazepam when you place it in your mouth and it dissolves leaves you with a slight feeling like you have sucking a mint. Not sure what alprazolam tastes like, but midazolam does not really taste of anything. I know both cause euphoria.
James
Posted by cactus on September 16, 2007, at 2:50:47
In reply to Re: ICN Galenika Clonazepam Please read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by James_glasgow on September 14, 2007, at 7:05:27
my 0.5mg of rivotril are orange in australia but the 2mg are white
Posted by sam123 on September 16, 2007, at 13:09:40
In reply to Re: ICN Galenika Clonazepam Please read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by James_glasgow on September 14, 2007, at 7:05:27
I have heard people complain about generic Clonazepam not being as effective as the brand.
There is some authority on this issue:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12860486&dopt=AbstractPlus
And anecdotal:
http://www.crazymeds.org/BvsG.html
Posted by Quintal on September 17, 2007, at 15:40:54
In reply to Re: ICN Galenika Clonazepam Please read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by James_glasgow on September 14, 2007, at 7:05:27
Alprazolam stands out in my mind as being extremely bitter, as does diazepam. I remember Roche's Rivoril had a mild 'peppery'/chalky taste and left my mouth feeling slightly numb. I could not tolerate holding alprazolam or diazepam in my mouth for any length of time without gurning, and the taste residue of any accidental dissolving would take quite some rinsing away. If you'd ever let an alprazolam tablet melt in your mouth I'm sure you'd never have forgotten it. I don't remember any of the others having any particular taste. Nitrazepam came in disproportionately large horse-tablets for some reason. I think it might have had a bitter taste, or it may just have been the great difficulty in swallowing that stands out in my mind. In any case, I'm quite certain about the first two.
I suppose it's possible that faster dissolving=faster onset of action=more euphoria, but I wouldn't expect so much difference between the two brands. I bought generic clonazepam from a variety of online pharmacies for years and noticed no difference between batches. If you can confidently dismiss a negative placebo effect in this case, I think it's likely that you received a counterfeit batch containing another drug.
Q
Posted by cactus on September 18, 2007, at 0:36:40
In reply to Re: ICN Galenika Clonazepam Please read!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by Quintal on September 17, 2007, at 15:40:54
xanax leaves a terrible taste in your mouth, I could still taste it occasionally after 6 months, valuim and mogadon aren't much better either but rivotril is fine, it just goes chalky and halcion doesn't seem to have any taste either
Posted by gaucho on May 4, 2008, at 17:24:24
In reply to Re: ICN Galenika Clonazepam Please read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by James_glasgow on September 14, 2007, at 2:18:09
In reply to JamesGlasgow, I'm from Edinburgh myself. Now you have indicated that you were sent a batch of RIVOTRIL (clonazepam) made by Roche at their German plant. This should be absolutely identical to both the RIVOTRIL made by ICN Galenika and Nicolas Piramal in India. The only difference possible would be that each company may use a different filler or binder to make their tablets; the clonazepam itself under the licencing agreements is provided by Roche, and is precisely the same stuff in all cases. There is NO difference between them. This is why I have difficulty in understanding how or why you find any difference since the active ingredient is identical. I myself use Rivotril and it makes no difference to me which firm it is marketed by; the clonazepam 2mg that is in each tablet is the same. You should not have or feel any difference whatsoever no matter which version you use. The only difference, as I said, is that there may be different binders and fillers, no difference in the actual clonazepam powder used. Roche even use different fillers at some of their different factories. I use either the Roche or Galenika branded product and feel no difference at all. As should be the case.
I think you hould be looking at something else for the differences in your medication's effect on you, because it most certainly is NOT due to any difference between the ICN and Roche versions of RIVOTRIL. By choice I buy the Galenika product, but that's for reasons of price, Roche Rivotril being more expensive simply because you're paying for the company name! Honestly, despite what any other poster may say or have said, the two products are exactly the same in terms of clonazepam. Your problem lies elsewhere and to waste time on any possible difference between Galenika and Roche clonazepam would be completely unproductive. I hear people say that they 'prefer' one or the other - the only reason I can come up with for such a statement would be that their bodies are intolerant to one of the binders or fillers used by one or other company when making the tablet. The same goes for the RIVOTRIL made by Nicolas Piramal in India under a similar Roche licence. (These three are the only tablets permitted to use the Roche trade-name 'RIVOTRIL'. In the USA, Roche use a different brand-name for their clonazepam - 'KLONOPIN', which is again identical save for the fact that in the USA they make a 1mg tablet as well as the normal 500mcg and 2mg.)
If you would like to know more or discuss the Roche licencing programme, which covers many of their medicines, please email me at
anxietyandpanicsyndrome@msn.com putting your name and this forum in the subject line, and marking it for the attention of MICHAEL.
Meanwhile I notice that your post is a few months old; perhaps you have got to the root cause of the problem by now unless you are still stuck on the 'difference' between ICN and Roche Rivotril.
From your fellow Scot and Rivotril user,
Michael the Gaucho, always ready to help with anything I am able to.
Posted by James_Glasgow_UK on May 5, 2008, at 3:43:42
In reply to Re: ICN Galenika Clonazepam JamesGlasgow please RE, posted by gaucho on May 4, 2008, at 17:24:24
Hi gaucho
It is good to see I am not the only one in Scotland on the board.
I am 35 now and have been on and off Rivotril since 1991 (I discovered its remarkable effect on social phobia then), almost all prescribed by my NHS GP (he is either very ahead of his time or ...) and now by my psychiatrist also to bring me down from mania's and for anxiety (after years of baggering them and getting a degree in medicinal chemistry I worn them down)
Is there no way you can get it on the NHS, I know it might be a very silly question? A lot of GP's are aware of its use in social phobia and panic, I think it mentions panic being an unlicensed indication for it in the BNF.
James
Posted by gaucho on May 7, 2008, at 15:30:33
In reply to Re: ICN Galenika Clonazepam JamesGlasgow please RE, posted by James_Glasgow_UK on May 5, 2008, at 3:43:42
Yes James, I too am a Scot; the BNF specifically says that clonazepam is indicated only for epileptic/seizure condiions, not anxiety and panic, for which I get XANAX on a private script; very expensive, in fact I would be cheaper getting them from an IOP.
I have a plan to ask the doctor to change me from the alprazolam onto clonazepam (Rivotril brand) 2mg three times daily. The great advantage of Rivotril is that of all the anxiolytic benzos it produces least daytime sedation which makes it a superior drug in my eyes.
If you wish to communicate further on any issues at all, you can get me on gauchoamigo@msn.com or even castlecrazy@msn.com but the former is best.
Wishing you the best and hoping tht I can get my doc to prescribe 2mg Rivotril in place of Xanax,
Michael
Posted by tealady on July 16, 2008, at 4:08:13
In reply to ICN Galenika Clonazepam Please read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted by leeholmes on September 13, 2007, at 7:49:47
I just read this post
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010804/msgs/73843.html
it also seems to be saying nothing much from Rivotril cf other brand?I've just started Rivotril today for jaw/teeth clenching which was getting extreme during sleep..
I also have some Valium for the same purpose, but I've been told Rivotril is not as stong and not as addictive?
I'm just wondering how folks found Rivotril, if it worked for them , and how hard withdrawal is?
Thanks,
Jan
Posted by tealady on July 17, 2008, at 7:02:57
In reply to Clonazepam - Rivotril(Roche)- anyone used? » leeholmes, posted by tealady on July 16, 2008, at 4:08:13
I tried one last night and as others have said earlir in this thread I got a chalky taste, and a bit like pepery or mint, strange to describe..they were an orangy shade(Roche rivitril in australia) and it worked for about 8 hrs.. the chemist told me to expect 8-10 hrs.
It didnt stop my jaw clenching at all I think, but maybe I didnt give it long enough?
I did find it seemed to make it difficult to breathe deeply , and I had a kinda tight chest and even mild pain around lungs?
I recall reading someone else had this , but now I can't refind it?
Anyone had had this effect?
I trying some valium tonight instead..if I dont cut down the jaw clecnhing I'll just have a lot of disintegrated bones in my TMJ..well far worse. It feels like powery bits and sounds like it too when I awake after clenching.. the grit is extreme , as wwell as the apin. I'm afraid of going to sleep.. LOL
Posted by cactus on July 18, 2008, at 15:43:03
In reply to Re: Clonazepam - Rivotril(Roche)- anyone used?, posted by tealady on July 17, 2008, at 7:02:57
I find rivotril much stronger than valium. It works quite well, maybe you need to give it a few days but if you're concerned about the breathing and chest/lung pain, I'd tell your doc ASAP.
Also make sure that your doc have given you the equivalent dose, you can do this by using a Benzodiazepine equivalence chart. If you were still grinding you teeth on a certain amount of valium then, Xmg of Valium, might need Xmg of rivotril or maybe a touch more. Have a look into it.
If I remember correctly 0.5mg of rivotril is equal to about 10mg of Valium, good luck. C
Here's a link to a Benzodiazepine equivalence chart from this site
http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/bzd.html
there are loads of them out there which you can google. By the way, Rivotril is not generic. It's the real deal outside of the US, just a different name. I'm in australia and Rivotril is the main brand with Paxam being the generic brand. So Rivotril and Klonopin are the same thing.
Posted by yxibow on July 20, 2008, at 0:12:38
In reply to Re: Clonazepam - Rivotril(Roche)- anyone used?, posted by tealady on July 17, 2008, at 7:02:57
> I tried one last night and as others have said earlir in this thread I got a chalky taste, and a bit like pepery or mint, strange to describe..they were an orangy shade(Roche rivitril in australia) and it worked for about 8 hrs.. the chemist told me to expect 8-10 hrs.
> It didnt stop my jaw clenching at all I think, but maybe I didnt give it long enough?
> I did find it seemed to make it difficult to breathe deeply , and I had a kinda tight chest and even mild pain around lungs?
> I recall reading someone else had this , but now I can't refind it?
> Anyone had had this effect?
> I trying some valium tonight instead..if I dont cut down the jaw clecnhing I'll just have a lot of disintegrated bones in my TMJ..well far worse. It feels like powery bits and sounds like it too when I awake after clenching.. the grit is extreme , as wwell as the apin. I'm afraid of going to sleep.. LOLIf you had trouble breathing, be cautious with benzodiazepines -- you may be a slow metabolizer. Large enough doses can cause respiratory depression, aka collapsing of the lungs. Hopefully this was just some idiosyncratic reaction.
Posted by tealady on August 1, 2008, at 1:02:48
In reply to Re: Clonazepam - Rivotril(Roche)- anyone used? » tealady, posted by cactus on July 18, 2008, at 15:43:03
> I find rivotril much stronger than valium. It works quite well, maybe you need to give it a few days but if you're concerned about the breathing and chest/lung pain, I'd tell your doc ASAP.
>
> Also make sure that your doc have given you the equivalent dose, you can do this by using a Benzodiazepine equivalence chart. If you were still grinding you teeth on a certain amount of valium then, Xmg of Valium, might need Xmg of rivotril or maybe a touch more. Have a look into it.
>
> If I remember correctly 0.5mg of rivotril is equal to about 10mg of Valium, good luck. C
>
> Here's a link to a Benzodiazepine equivalence chart from this site
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/bzd.html
>
> there are loads of them out there which you can google. By the way, Rivotril is not generic. It's the real deal outside of the US, just a different name. I'm in australia and Rivotril is the main brand with Paxam being the generic brand. So Rivotril and Klonopin are the same thing.
>
>
>Thanks Cactus, I'm, in Oz too.
Thanks for your helpful reply, I just was feeling a tad too overwhelmed to reply, and I still can't find the post in here where I read that somone else had that "tight chest"- difficulty to breathe with Rivotril... I know I read it somewhere!
My regular doc just said "get off valium" immediately..it doesnt work for jaw cleching, but I have found I feel less stressed out taking just 1/2 tablet a night. I still "clench" though but it doesnt seem as severe. I dont grind I think.The rivitrol(clonazepam) are 500mcg and the Valium(diazepam) are 5mg.
I'll have another look at that equivalence chart, as I've forgotten..what a surprise! My short term memory is poor..Ok so 500mcg Clonazepam(rivitrol) is twice the equivalence of 5mg Valium.
So now what is soooo bad about valium?
I did take just a few while studying for exams as a teenager, and again in my early 20's, but I wasnt on long, just an occasional tablet to get to sleep so I'd be awake the next day for exams.. beerr or alcohol was the other method:-)
Posted by tealady on August 1, 2008, at 1:09:19
In reply to Re: Clonazepam - Rivotril(Roche)- anyone used? » tealady, posted by yxibow on July 20, 2008, at 0:12:38
Thanks. I am probably a slow metaboliser as I'm hypothyroid and tend to less less than the optimal replacement meds due to stress it seems to bring on (probably from low adrenal capacity as well:-).
I just found out that the Rivotril was twice the amount as well..
I feel a little nausea with Valium, but that's nothing really , especially as I alwaysd fall alsleep almost immediately.
I've been trying to take valium when I awake in the middle of the night..usually about 3 hrs after I go to sleep, as its the 2nd half that I clench worse in.
My doc says "get off valium immediately!"..It is wrong, it is NOt a muscle relaxan and doesnt stop jaw clecnhing. I admit I am still clenching, but it deosnt seem as bad, and I am coping better during the day..I was feeling over stressed, so I'd just go around in circles and not get anything done at all..
I haven't tasken Rivotril again as yet, but both the asleep doc and my regular GP dont like Vlaium and seem to prefer Rivitrol..no idea why really?
Any folks out there know why?
Posted by tealady on August 1, 2008, at 2:10:09
In reply to Re: Clonazepam - Rivotril(Roche)- anyone used?, posted by tealady on August 1, 2008, at 1:02:48
This is the end of the thread.
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