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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jimmyboy on September 13, 2007, at 9:58:57
As I said on the previous thread, I have been taking Scopolamine tablets the last 4 days and it definitely seems to have helped my depression.. I have been getting a moderate amount of memory loss ( mainly trying recall words and names) during conversations..
Does anyone know if this woud eventually go away if I continue to take them or if this would be a permanent side effect of the medication?
Also,, in the studies I have read on scopolamine, they adminstered it for a few days then stopped.. but the AD effect continued to work. Any advice on if thats how I should do it with the pills? That is take large doses for a few days then stop or take smaller doses consistently?
If any one has any advice or ideas about that I would appreciate the input.
JB
Posted by Riley on September 13, 2007, at 12:28:05
In reply to SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues, posted by Jimmyboy on September 13, 2007, at 9:58:57
Scopolaime and morphine combo was a common practice years and years ago for childbirth analgesia and amnesia. The morphine was for the analgesia and Scope was for amnesia.
Posted by Riley on September 13, 2007, at 12:42:23
In reply to Twilight Sleep component? » Jimmyboy, posted by Riley on September 13, 2007, at 12:28:05
> Scopolaime and morphine combo was a common practice years and years ago for childbirth analgesia and amnesia. The morphine was for the analgesia and Scope was for amnesia.
I think Scopolamine may have inherent properties for causing memory recall deficiencies. Whether this wanes with longer term use or is dose dependent, I'm unsure. I do know at some doses it's a heck of an amnesia producer.
Posted by Phillipa on September 13, 2007, at 12:42:24
In reply to Twilight Sleep component? » Jimmyboy, posted by Riley on September 13, 2007, at 12:28:05
Thanks wow I never knew that learn everyday here thanks. Phillipa
Posted by Fivefires on September 13, 2007, at 15:26:32
In reply to Sorry, forgot to add, posted by Riley on September 13, 2007, at 12:42:23
Riley - What is childbirth amnesia? I mean, what do you mean by connecting childbirth w/ amnesia?
confused, 5f
Posted by linkadge on September 13, 2007, at 16:19:46
In reply to Re: Sorry, forgot to add, posted by Fivefires on September 13, 2007, at 15:26:32
Scopolamine can block the formation of certain memories, and can interfere with recall of certain forms of memories.
From what I have read, certain of the muscarinic acetychloline receptors are involved in the formation of emotionally liaden memories.
Many antidepressant treatments produce some sort of functional downregulation of activity at these receptors.
I have read that you may be able to only take the scopolamine periodically. It may produce some sort of adaptive changes in these receptor systems and reduce depression after discontinuing.
If you are not already, I would try taking it at bedtime. It is my theory that taking an anticholinergic right before bed will shift REM activity to later parts of the night and produce an AD effect like other antidepressants.
This too may reduce memory impairment in the day.
Linkadge
Posted by Jimmyboy on September 13, 2007, at 17:01:43
In reply to Re: Sorry, forgot to add, posted by linkadge on September 13, 2007, at 16:19:46
I actually have been taking it at night and am up to 3 pills at bedtime (1.2 mgs). As it is causing significant memory impairment and also some dizziness I would really like to try taking a larger dose ( one trial a saw said they took 2 mg's IV) for 3 days in row and see if it gave depression relief for an extended period of time. I think the memory problems would wear off before the AD effect did, at least I am hoping it will.
Like I said, its been pretty good for mood, not so good for anxiety in specific situations that I get. I guess I will have to find something else for that. Thats the hard thing it seems like.. f'ing anxiety is so hard to get rid of..
Posted by Riley on September 13, 2007, at 17:08:28
In reply to Re: Sorry, forgot to add, posted by Fivefires on September 13, 2007, at 15:26:32
Back in the day - way, way back in the day - it was not unusual to use the "Twilight Sleep" cocktail during childbirth. The morphine was for pain control and indeed, what "discomfort" was remaining would be forgotten due to the scopolaime. Problem was, this combo made for some very dishrag toned infants who required jump-starting and Moms with labor behavior that was difficult to deal with and the added bonus of not realizing they had actually given birth. Time has brought better ideas into use for pain control with childbirth which are much less risky for both parties.
Anmesia production is not an unusual part of some procedures to this day. Versed is an anmesia producer and is commonly given during things like cardiac caths.
Posted by cumulative on September 13, 2007, at 18:42:23
In reply to SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues, posted by Jimmyboy on September 13, 2007, at 9:58:57
I mean, I hate to be worrisome but you have to keep in mind it's a powerful anticholinergic. It's going to be dulling. Acetylcholine is often thought to underlie memory ... if the memory problems fade, the efficacy as an antidepressant might fade at the same time. "A wide range of psychopharmacological studies in humans and animals have shown that scopolamine impairs the learning of new information."
Or perhaps there can be a rewiring and this problem will go away. I hope so. Good luck sir.
Posted by cumulative on September 13, 2007, at 18:56:28
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues, posted by cumulative on September 13, 2007, at 18:42:23
Ahh, well, linkadge has some good advice here I would think.
My great-grandfather from the old country left his motion-sickness scopolamine patch on too long and hallucinated in the night. :)
Posted by Phillipa on September 13, 2007, at 22:04:31
In reply to Re: Sorry, forgot to add » Fivefires, posted by Riley on September 13, 2007, at 17:08:28
Versed is lovely colonoscopy's too and some plastic surgery where you wish to stay awake. Phillipa
Posted by Jimmyboy on September 14, 2007, at 12:54:51
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues, posted by cumulative on September 13, 2007, at 18:42:23
Well, I am on day five of taking scopolamine tablets. I increased the dose to 1.6 mg at bedtime. The memory problems, blurry vision, and shaky hands ( which could be due to Lithium) definitely tell me this is not a long term solution to the problem..
but so far there have been positives : ( which are hard to explain, but i'll try) less angry( alot less fighting with my girlfriend), much less sitting around dwelling on the negative, and sort of feel as if some weight has been lifeted off my shoulders..
negatives: As stated before: memory problems, burry vision, shakiness, a little dizzy, hard to concentrate ( AKA - mind is blank,) no help with anxiety at all ( although the studies said it does) - But, although these are problems, they are not very severe in degree..
My plan is to take another large dose tonight and then get off of it. I hope the AD effect continues to last for awhile. If so , i would definitely ive up a weekend a month to have relief for a few weeks.
JB
Posted by linkadge on September 14, 2007, at 13:54:45
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues, posted by cumulative on September 13, 2007, at 18:42:23
Blocking acetylcholine receptors will block the formation of certain forms of memory but not all.
Memory formation also depends on the activation of monoaminergic receptors as well.
You might try taking it as early in the evening as possable. Ie, I try to stop working around 6pm, so I sometimes take seroquel then, as opposed to at 11:00, when I go to sleep.
The AD effect is probably not completely dependant on the blocking of memory. Anticholinergics enhance dopamine release in certain areas of the brain. So it may be less about blocking acetylcholine than it is about achieving acetylcholine dopamine ballence.
Everybody needs a certain measure of ability to forget.
You may also find that it can be combined with lower doses of an antidepressant that had some effect.
Ie. scopolamine + SSRI, or scopolamine + effexor. etc
Linkadge
Posted by Jimmyboy on September 14, 2007, at 16:34:48
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues, posted by linkadge on September 14, 2007, at 13:54:45
Hey link, thanks for the reply. you seem to know alot about this. you mentioned that scopolamine increases dopamine in parts of the brain.. that makes sense, b/c the higher up I have gone, I am getting that tense, keyed up, inner tension that I have gotten with SAM-e and n Selegiline. I believe both of those also effect dopamine..
It sucks b/c thats a terrible feeling, makes me very anxious, but as for general mood and out look on life I think scopolamine is a winner.PS- I also noticed i was taking 4x the amount that was given in last years study,9 although that was Iv and I'm taking pills) thats probably a major reason I'm getting worse SE's.
Do you know of anything that raises dopamine but doesn't make you tense and nervous? I think DA is aprecursor to NA which in turn become adrenaline?? Just wondering
JB
Posted by Fivefires on September 14, 2007, at 18:49:30
In reply to Re: Sorry, forgot to add » Fivefires, posted by Riley on September 13, 2007, at 17:08:28
Well that was quite the story there. I'll be dipped in chocolate and rolled in p-nuts, and not even know it!
I won't ask how 'way way' back this was. Pretty bad scene tho'. Maybe better than nothing. But, we do what we have to do, I guess.
Tks 4 answering my ? Riley.
Gotta' have coffee now; logging off and moving away from pute. (Is that clapping I hear?)
tksagain, 5f
Posted by linkadge on September 14, 2007, at 21:07:15
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues » linkadge, posted by Jimmyboy on September 14, 2007, at 16:34:48
Acetycholine asserts inhibitory control over the release of dopamine. I found that when I was taking the patch (I put on two), I got to a good dose, but then I think the concentration got too high. I got a little irritable, disoriented, zoned.
I think one patch (1.5mg / 48 hours) would have been better, or perhaps even less.
Linkadge
Posted by Fivefires on September 16, 2007, at 16:03:21
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues » Jimmyboy, posted by linkadge on September 14, 2007, at 21:07:15
> Acetycholine asserts inhibitory control over the release of dopamine. I found that when I was taking the patch (I put on two), I got to a good dose, but then I think the concentration got too high. I got a little irritable, disoriented, zoned.
>
> I think one patch (1.5mg / 48 hours) would have been better, or perhaps even less.
>
> Linkadge
>I'm sorry 4 jokin' around in midst of serious issue. Feelin' off-the-wall yesterday.
I was interested when Jb asked about anything that raises dopamine but doesn't make one tense or nervous.
I've found some aid w/ combo of Abilify and Provigil, but not sure if its mechanism is to release the availability of dopamine, as don't understand terminology well, just know feel relief.
RU saying an acetylcholine patch is helpful in increasing dopamine Linkadge?
What's your plan Jimmyboy?
I'll add here, for me, only one AD did not increase anxiety in me, and it was Effexor-XR; instead diminished it.
tks & certainly take time 2 respond, if wish 2,
5f
Posted by linkadge on September 16, 2007, at 21:08:33
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues, posted by Fivefires on September 16, 2007, at 16:03:21
>RU saying an acetylcholine patch is helpful in >increasing dopamine Linkadge?
I am saying that blocking certain acetylcholine receptors releases dopamine in certain areas of the brain.
Linkadge
Posted by Jimmyboy on September 17, 2007, at 12:03:03
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues » Fivefires, posted by linkadge on September 16, 2007, at 21:08:33
Its been a few days since I quit taking scopolamine and now the side effects such as memory problems have rapidly worn off , but the antidepressant effect seems to be holding strong. I hope that it continues to last for awhile. It is definitely impressive to me bc I have tried so many things and this definitely helps with mood ( unfortunately not anxiety too) and it helped very fast.
I would reccommend people who have not had much luck to try this, its cheap and you are going to know if it helps within a day or two.
JB
Posted by Fivefires on September 18, 2007, at 14:00:28
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues » Jimmyboy, posted by linkadge on September 14, 2007, at 21:07:15
I'm sorry Link, but 'patch of what'?
5f
Posted by linkadge on September 19, 2007, at 13:34:09
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues, posted by Fivefires on September 18, 2007, at 14:00:28
Scopolamine patch. That is its only available form in Canada (as far as I am aware). It is traditionally used for motion sickness.
Linkadge
Posted by Jimmyboy on September 20, 2007, at 19:47:36
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - memory issues, posted by Fivefires on September 18, 2007, at 14:00:28
The AD effect faded after about 4 days.. I am considering trying a small dose .4 mg once every 3 days to see if I can get the AD response without the other bad side effects. If anyone is interested I will report my results.
JB
Posted by Phillipa on September 20, 2007, at 20:12:36
In reply to Re: SCOPOLAMINE - update, posted by Jimmyboy on September 20, 2007, at 19:47:36
Sorry but of course we would love to know and hope it is possitive. Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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