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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by sam123 on September 1, 2007, at 4:41:52
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » sam123, posted by Squiggles on August 31, 2007, at 14:51:51
interesting that they should use APs for both schizophrenia and bp; are they trying to calm the person down in a sedating manner
yep. Calming can also include suppressing hallucinations and not just psychotic
and disordered thinking or mania.or actually change the mind state?
>
Hmmm, I am not sure what you mean. If you mean
get at the cause vs. treating symptoms, they
treat symptoms.
For BP, I think lithium and anticonvulsives get at the cause.My point previously in this thread is that, at least with antipsyotics (AP) the side effects today were also seen in the orignal AP's and any AP the followed. They are now being
used for conditions that have no psychotic features.The "new" effects are really just more reporting of side effects, well known at all AP's, in greater numbers due to AP's are now used for several disorders.
AD's have gotten black box warnings for suicide
and that is a well know slight possibility even in the TCA's, our original AD's. The black box on AD's used for children did lower their use but sucide rates went up among children.
Posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 6:46:01
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs, posted by sam123 on September 1, 2007, at 4:41:52
I hardly think that antipsychotics are a
good substitute to benzos and mood stabilizers
for bipolar; i know little about schizophrenia
and what it's cause is; sounds like carpet-bombing
pharmacology for APs-- and the side effects
really make you look crazy even if you're not;
you also gain an enormous amount of weight-- maybe
that's where the cardiac problems comes from.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 7:04:15
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » sam123, posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 6:46:01
Just looked them up on Wikipedia, and what
can i say.... i think they and their indiscriminate use really s*ck:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipsychotic#HistoryAnaesthetics is their original chemical formula; yup sedation-- probably better for the the one treating than the one treated especially if the complaints are loud.
Squiggles
Posted by sam123 on September 1, 2007, at 14:33:20
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 7:04:15
> Anaesthetics is their original chemical formula; yup sedation-- probably better for the the one treating than the one treated especially if the complaints are loud.
>
> Squiggles
>
So I take it you prefer to remain awake during painful procedures and surgery ?
Posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 15:57:25
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs, posted by sam123 on September 1, 2007, at 14:33:20
It is one thing to be anesthetized for
surgery, and quite another for mood disorders.Squiggles
Posted by sam123 on September 1, 2007, at 16:37:10
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » sam123, posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 15:57:25
> It is one thing to be anesthetized for
> surgery, and quite another for mood disorders.
>
> SquigglesOpps, sorry. I misunderstood you; yes they are quite different.
However I do not think things are black and white concerning AP's. They are very effective for short term use. During a crisis to stop the psychosis or mania. For the positive symptoms of schizophrenia
there are no other medical treatments and AP's are quite effective.
Posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 16:44:17
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs, posted by sam123 on September 1, 2007, at 16:37:10
For schizophrenia perhaps; though the actual
understanding of schizophrenia is not yet
complete-- it could be severe anxiety and
there is overlap in these conditions both
in their phenomenology as well as their
neurological underpinnings.But for bipolar disorder (mercifully very
clean and distinct in its presentation) i would
not personally trust someone to give it for
a limited time, and then take you off. I
think expedience might just overcome vigilance
in many of these treatments. This has happened
with the benzo addiction fiasco in the past 20 years of so, and only recently has been admitted
to and become an accepted medical issue. Possibly the same will happen with many other new drugs.Caveat emptor
Squiggles
Posted by sam123 on September 1, 2007, at 17:27:33
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » sam123, posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 16:44:17
> For schizophrenia perhaps; though the actual
> understanding of schizophrenia is not yet
> complete-- it could be severe anxiety and
> there is overlap in these conditions both
> in their phenomenology as well as their
> neurological underpinnings.
>There is overlap every where in mental illness and little is understood about the neurological underpinnings of mental illness. Lots of theories, though. None of this is ever black or white.
Posted by linkadge on September 1, 2007, at 17:50:15
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs, posted by sam123 on September 1, 2007, at 17:27:33
I agree. Bipolars really get the raw deal.
Mood mood stabilizers are rough, and antipsychotics are no fun as well as not all that safe.
When I was told I would need mood stabilizers, I reluctantly agreed, with no real idea of what I was in for.
Linkadge
Posted by satyam on September 1, 2007, at 18:31:39
In reply to More and more warnings with new drugs, posted by Squiggles on August 31, 2007, at 14:21:38
Human brain is so complex that psychopharmacology needs to advance much more, becuase the present psychotropics try to fix things but mess others hence so many side effects
Posted by Phillipa on September 1, 2007, at 20:09:15
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » sam123, posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 16:44:17
Squiggles comletly agree with you look at vioxx and a bunch of other meds. Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 20:24:15
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on September 1, 2007, at 20:09:15
The warnings may be more numerous today
for litigious reasons. It may be that
the old drugs also had dangerous side effects
but public organizations, such as 'Public Citizen', 'Mindfreedom' 'Benzo.org' etc. did
not exist and hospital personnel deferred
to authority. People may have died quietly
and mysteriously due to their illness without
acknowledgement of iatrogenic cause. But the
doctors and medical professionals must have known nonetheless.Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on September 1, 2007, at 21:38:04
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 20:24:15
I believe that a death that occurs in a hospital setting or even at home that shouldn't occur requires an autopsy. The true cause would be known then. Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 22:36:14
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on September 1, 2007, at 21:38:04
> I believe that a death that occurs in a hospital setting or even at home that shouldn't occur requires an autopsy. The true cause would be known then. Phillipa
That is in an ideal world; in impoverished or
dysfunctional families, you can imagine that
an autopsy request is a luxury. In our privileged
part of the world that is possible with most
families, but i think it is quite beyond the social range of other cultural and economic circles.Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 19:41:18
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on September 1, 2007, at 22:36:14
Squiggles are you talking about underprivledged places? As I know when my Father died they wanted to do one as he had seen the doc two days prior and had complained of weight gain and difficulty urinating and the doc paid no attention. He died of pulmonary edema. When the hospital called and said it was mandatory I had to put up a fight so none would be done. Didn't want his body cut up. Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on September 2, 2007, at 20:05:54
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 19:41:18
> Squiggles are you talking about underprivledged places? As I know when my Father died they wanted to do one as he had seen the doc two days prior and had complained of weight gain and difficulty urinating and the doc paid no attention. He died of pulmonary edema. When the hospital called and said it was mandatory I had to put up a fight so none would be done. Didn't want his body cut up. Phillipa
Mostly about poor families who may have
too many problems and obstacles to actually
ask the doctors or be assertive against powers
higher than them. I didn't know that a hospital
conducted them on a mandatory basis-- are you
sure about that? I thought you had to make
a request.I'm sorry about your father's death and the
doctor's indifference to dangerous signs.
Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 20:18:00
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on September 2, 2007, at 20:05:54
Squiggles since he was diagnosed healthy it throws suspicion on the cause of death. He was living with my sister and family. How would they know if she poisoned him? That's an extreme example. Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on September 2, 2007, at 20:21:56
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 20:18:00
> Squiggles since he was diagnosed healthy it throws suspicion on the cause of death. He was living with my sister and family. How would they know if she poisoned him? That's an extreme example. Phillipa
I must have misunderstood -- i thought that the
he died of pulmonary edema and it was only detected
post-mortem;Squiggled
Posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 22:00:04
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on September 2, 2007, at 20:21:56
Squiggles he did but I was giving an example of why a hospital here would require a post mortem. When a healthy person dies they always want to know why. Doubt this would happen with let's say a cancer patient. Bet it would with an overdose of meds to see which meds did what. Don't you? Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on September 2, 2007, at 22:49:06
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 22:00:04
If a healthy person dies, he would
not be staying in the hospital.Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 22:58:02
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on September 2, 2007, at 22:49:06
Squiggles in my Father's case he started having trouble breathing my nephew called 9ll the ambulence took him to the hospital. I think all deaths go first to the hospital. At least in CT they do. Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on September 2, 2007, at 23:01:19
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 22:58:02
What was the diagnosis when he arrived?
Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 23:03:00
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 22:58:02
Squiggle when the ambulence got there he was already dead. What do they do with a person in Canada who dies at home? Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 23:07:01
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs, posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 23:03:00
Squiggles and in a matter of minutes he was foaming at the mouth a bloody sputum a sign of pulmonary edema. Many times when nursing I'd come on go check my patients for the shift and find one in this condition. Then we'd give lasix IV and a lot made it.Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on September 2, 2007, at 23:16:45
In reply to Re: More and more warnings with new drugs, posted by Phillipa on September 2, 2007, at 23:03:00
> Squiggle when the ambulence got there he was already dead. What do they do with a person in Canada who dies at home? Phillipa
I think it depends on age.
I'm sorry about your father.
Squiggles
This is the end of the thread.
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