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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by calamityjane on July 25, 2007, at 22:40:40
My dad killed himself on January 26, 1986. I was 5 years old so bits and pieces have been revealed to me over the years - mostly through my own investigation into the situation. I now have serious questions on what exactly was going on with my dad's depression and treatment.
My dad's autopsy lists these medications as being in his system at time of his death (i dont have it right here with my, so spelling may be off. please excuse me for that):
Imipramine
Desimipramine
Propoxyphene
Salcilyate
Then, several other medications are listed in an area on the autopsy report, simply entitled "medications". I take this to mean that these were also being prescribed to him at the time of his death:
Dexedrine
Halcion
Restoril
XanaxOn top of all these medicines, my father was also in the middle of receiving a series of electric shock treatments. This was not his first series of shock treatments, he had undergone this before from what I understand.
In a 1983 drug guide I found that the antidepressants had a warning that those undergoing electric shock treatments should not be given Imipramine or Desimipramine, but if they are they should be given with extreme caution and the patient should never have direct access to the bottle. (this is the medicine he used to overdose on the night he died). The guide also says that benzodiazamines should not be given to those being treated with those antidepressants, as well.
Why was my dad being given 2 antidepressants, 3 sedatives, a pain killer, AND dexedrine? Not to mention the electric shock treatments!
This doctor worked with the Psychiatric Institute of North Texas, which ended up going under in 1990. Its reason for being brought down was because they were paying doctors money for referals. I do not know much about the Psychiatric Institute, but I do know my dad was a patient there at some point, because it is listed as a debt in his will. And I also know that his doctor was associated with the organization as well.
Please somebody give me your opinion. I really need to know if my father was a victim of malpractice. There is nothing that could be done about it now - you only have 2 years to bring something like this to court. But I just need to know if I am just thinking way too much into this, or if I have a reason to be so confused.
THANK YOU!
Posted by Phillipa on July 25, 2007, at 22:53:03
In reply to was this doc causing my dads depression to worsen?, posted by calamityjane on July 25, 2007, at 22:40:40
Gee that's a long time ago and they did prescribe meds differently then. So is the doc still alive? Maybe you could talk to him and he could explain why the meds. And your're saying your Dad overdosed as death? I'm really sorry. Sounds like something you need to resolve for yourself to find peace. Love Phillipa
Posted by calamityjane on July 25, 2007, at 23:53:24
In reply to Re: was this doc causing my dads depression to worsen? » calamityjane, posted by Phillipa on July 25, 2007, at 22:53:03
Yes the doc is still alive. I had been trying to reach him to see if there were any records, but he had no number published, only an address. So I went personally to his door to request the records. He said, "who was your dad" and I told him his name. He replied, "Ohhh! How is he doing these days?" He had no recollection of him. The funny thing is, though, that my dad was one of his main patients. And the morning my dad died, my mother called him first (BEFORE she called an ambulance). Not only did she not call for ambulance until later in the morning, but the doctor actually came to our home that morning at 5:15 am. He pronounced him dead, and next to his signature on the autopsy he put in perentheses "(found)" meaning the obvious. The doctor was there at our home an entire hour prior to making a call for an ambulance to come. I have not a clue in the entire world why my mother chose to call the doc first, and why she listened when he told her not to do anything until he got there. All of it is so suspicious to me.
(and to answer your question, it was indeed an overdose. not his first time to try at that point either. he had a 5 year old, 11 year old son, and 16 year old daughter. I just dont know why this happened. I am devastated over the entire situation, but I am desperate for answers and to understand everything that happened. )
Posted by med_empowered on July 26, 2007, at 8:13:11
In reply to was this doc causing my dads depression to worsen?, posted by calamityjane on July 25, 2007, at 22:40:40
that's an intense situation. I don't know how they did meds in the 80s, but that combo looks ridiculous. 2 tricyclics? Several benzos? The Halcion in particular is disturbing; from the get-go, it was associated with paranoia and increasing depression. Why was it RX'd along with Restoril (which one thinks would have been enough of a sleep aid, as long as the dose was ramped high enough) ?
This whole situation strikes me as very, very shady. The pdoc came to your house? I don't know how Texan shrinks in the 1980s did medicine, but these days...having a shrink make a housecall is almost unheard of. Was he a friend of the family?
Have you asked your mother why she called the pdoc, and not a normal doc? Perhaps she could shed some light on what was going on.
Posted by linkadge on July 26, 2007, at 8:56:31
In reply to was this doc causing my dads depression to worsen?, posted by calamityjane on July 25, 2007, at 22:40:40
Its really hard to say without knowing exact context and history of his illness. If his first symptom of depression appeared a year before, then it would seem very crazy to be on these meds and be having shock treatments.ECT, (even back then I believe) was usually reserved for treatment resistant patients. You say he had prior ECT treatments? If your father has a history of severe treatment resistant depression, then taking these meds may not be terrably unheard of.
Was your father in chronic pain? Did he have other illnesses, requiring the pain medication?
Treatment resistant patients tend to accumulate the medications over the years. It is often not that the doctor prescribes them all at once, but that they are slowly added over time to combat severe forms of depression.
Stimulants such as dexidrine are often used as augmenting agents.
I'm sure you are factoring in the severarity of your fathers illness, should find enough information to quantify that.
I hope you find the answers you're looking for.Linkadge
Posted by Racer on July 26, 2007, at 11:43:12
In reply to Re: was this doc causing my dads depression to worsen?, posted by linkadge on July 26, 2007, at 8:56:31
What bothers me is that, if he was depressed enough to require that sort of treatment, he had access to his TCAs. They're known to be dangerous in overdose, and it really seems it would have been safer to have someone else dole them out to him.
Heck, my husband had to lock my meds away for a time. (He really didn't take it seriously enough, though, but that's another story...)
I'm very sorry, CJane. That must have been devastating through your childhood. I do hope you find peace with it.
Posted by Phillipa on July 26, 2007, at 11:50:59
In reply to Re: was this doc causing my dads depression to worsen?, posted by linkadge on July 26, 2007, at 8:56:31
Having taken meds in the 80's you could have whatever you wanted. Heck I had an open ended prescription for valium. Saw no doc for years treated myself then one I day I went to fill the prescription and the doc no longer had a practice when somewhere else. So I got a new pdoc. Love Phillipa
Posted by Cecilia on July 26, 2007, at 22:29:27
In reply to Re: was this doc causing my dads depression to wor, posted by Racer on July 26, 2007, at 11:43:12
ALL the meds available then were dangerous in overdose. That's why doctors were so thrilled when SSRI's came out, didn't necessarily work any better but less risk of being sued. I personally think it's pretty insulting for an adult to have their meds "doled out" to them and and there are plenty of people who are depressed who don't have anyone to dole them out to them, are the doctors supposed to treat only those who do? If so, they should put a notice to this effect on the door to their office so those without such a person don't waste their money. Believe me, even if I had such a person, I would NEVER go back to a doctor who had such a humiliating policy. Anyway, anyone who's treatment resistant likely has dozens of old prescriptions stashed away, so it wouldn't make any difference if their new prescription was "doled out".
Sorry for your tragedy, Calamity Jane, hope you get the answers you need. It does seem pretty callous that this doctor would not even remember your Dad. Cecilia
Posted by Racer on July 27, 2007, at 12:54:43
In reply to Re: was this doc causing my dads depression to wor, posted by Cecilia on July 26, 2007, at 22:29:27
> I personally think it's pretty insulting for an adult to have their meds "doled out" to them and and there are plenty of people who are depressed who don't have anyone to dole them out to them, are the doctors supposed to treat only those who do?
What I meant was that, if someone was that high a suicide risk, at that time, they shouldn't have access to enough drugs to do this. If that means having someone at home lock up their meds, that's probably better than the alternative -- which would be to hospitalize them.
Most of the time, even depressed, I can be safe having access to my meds, because I'm not an immediate danger to myself. When I get to the point of being suicidal, though, I can't. At that point, I need to be protected from myself -- which means either locking up my meds and giving them to me on schedule, or it means locking me up.
The story told here looks as though there might have been some warning signs, especially since he had a history of suicide attempts.
I'm sorry if you were offended by what I suggested, but I'll stand by it.
Posted by calamityjane on July 27, 2007, at 19:35:11
In reply to wow..., posted by med_empowered on July 26, 2007, at 8:13:11
> that's an intense situation. I don't know how they did meds in the 80s, but that combo looks ridiculous. 2 tricyclics? Several benzos? The Halcion in particular is disturbing; from the get-go, it was associated with paranoia and increasing depression. Why was it RX'd along with Restoril (which one thinks would have been enough of a sleep aid, as long as the dose was ramped high enough) ?
>
> This whole situation strikes me as very, very shady. The pdoc came to your house? I don't know how Texan shrinks in the 1980s did medicine, but these days...having a shrink make a housecall is almost unheard of. Was he a friend of the family?
>
> Have you asked your mother why she called the pdoc, and not a normal doc? Perhaps she could shed some light on what was going on.
>
>
I have tried talking with my mom - she is defensive. I think she was just ignorant when it came to psychiatric treatments. She is one to trust a doctor and do what he says, without question him. She is a labor&delivery nurse, so especially at that time she had no clue about psych medicines.
He was not a friend of the family - they first met the doctor during a hospital visit, but my mother will not tell me what the visit was. I am in process of getting hospital records... Hopefully I will learn more at that time.In 1984, at the beginning of his natural depression, he looked normal in pictures. But by 1985, he looked like the twighlight zone. Even family snapshots of all 5 of us on the couch look ridiculous. We are all smiling, and he is zoned out with no expression on his face. I am sitting in his lap and laughin - he is behind me just staring in to space. 5 or 6 pics of that same pose on the couch, and ALL are of him just staring into space.
He was not like that before the meds....,
Posted by calamityjane on July 27, 2007, at 19:40:57
In reply to Re: was this doc causing my dads depression to worsen?, posted by linkadge on July 26, 2007, at 8:56:31
>
> Its really hard to say without knowing exact context and history of his illness. If his first symptom of depression appeared a year before, then it would seem very crazy to be on these meds and be having shock treatments.
>
> ECT, (even back then I believe) was usually reserved for treatment resistant patients. You say he had prior ECT treatments? If your father has a history of severe treatment resistant depression, then taking these meds may not be terrably unheard of.
>
> Was your father in chronic pain? Did he have other illnesses, requiring the pain medication?
>
> Treatment resistant patients tend to accumulate the medications over the years. It is often not that the doctor prescribes them all at once, but that they are slowly added over time to combat severe forms of depression.
>
> Stimulants such as dexidrine are often used as augmenting agents.
>
> I'm sure you are factoring in the severarity of your fathers illness, should find enough information to quantify that.
>
>
> I hope you find the answers you're looking for.
>
> Linkadge
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>Thanks Link -
yes, first symptoms supposedly appeared just one year before. he went in for a rectal surgery, and when he came out was depressed. I am not sure, but I am thinking it is possible that he attempted suicide before ever being seen by psychiatrist - but I am in process of finding that out and should know by next week sometime.March 28, 1984 was the date of his first experience with the doctor. By 1985 he was attempting suicide all the time, in and out of psych hospital, and even a trip to NIMH in Maryland, where he stayed for a couple of weeks.
There was no chronic pain - the pain meds were somthing he got hooked on after his rectal surgery - Other than the pain of depression, there was no other circumstance making the pain meds necessary....
maybe he talked the doc into giving them to him, though. that is a possibility. I know how people that like meds can be. I am sure he could have been convincing.
With that said, the doc should not have given him the pain meds, in my opinion, no matter how hard he begged.
again, i have no proof he even requested the pain med - just me guessing about what happened.
Posted by calamityjane on July 27, 2007, at 19:43:12
In reply to Re: was this doc causing my dads depression to wor, posted by Racer on July 26, 2007, at 11:43:12
> What bothers me is that, if he was depressed enough to require that sort of treatment, he had access to his TCAs. They're known to be dangerous in overdose, and it really seems it would have been safer to have someone else dole them out to him.
>
> Heck, my husband had to lock my meds away for a time. (He really didn't take it seriously enough, though, but that's another story...)
>
> I'm very sorry, CJane. That must have been devastating through your childhood. I do hope you find peace with it.
I agree with you. I do not think a suicidal person should have access to meds like these. Even the 1983 drug guide warns about a suicidal patient having access to them. It also says ECT patients should not take them.
A suicidal person is not in his right mind. Everything must be done to protect him, even if it means treating him as a child. He should not have access to the meds.
Thanks for your kind words...I appreciate it.
Posted by calamityjane on July 27, 2007, at 19:47:08
In reply to Re: was this doc causing my dads depression to wor, posted by Cecilia on July 26, 2007, at 22:29:27
> ALL the meds available then were dangerous in overdose. That's why doctors were so thrilled when SSRI's came out, didn't necessarily work any better but less risk of being sued. I personally think it's pretty insulting for an adult to have their meds "doled out" to them and and there are plenty of people who are depressed who don't have anyone to dole them out to them, are the doctors supposed to treat only those who do? If so, they should put a notice to this effect on the door to their office so those without such a person don't waste their money. Believe me, even if I had such a person, I would NEVER go back to a doctor who had such a humiliating policy. Anyway, anyone who's treatment resistant likely has dozens of old prescriptions stashed away, so it wouldn't make any difference if their new prescription was "doled out".
>
> Sorry for your tragedy, Calamity Jane, hope you get the answers you need. It does seem pretty callous that this doctor would not even remember your Dad. Cecilia
Yeah - I was furious about the fact he did not remember him. I mean, he was treating him for two years, and my dad was a very difficult patient. He saw him all the time, and he even came to our house the morning he died. How could a decent human being EVERY forget that?
I think if a person is suicidal, then that is definitely reason enough to dispense meds to them - they must be protected until they get better. It may make the depressed person angry, but hopefully one day they would come out of their darkness and see that the person was only desperate to save their life.
If no suicide risk, then I do agree it is up to the patient to take their meds.
Posted by calamityjane on July 27, 2007, at 19:55:05
In reply to Re: was this doc causing my dads depression to wor » Cecilia, posted by Racer on July 27, 2007, at 12:54:43
> > I personally think it's pretty insulting for an adult to have their meds "doled out" to them and and there are plenty of people who are depressed who don't have anyone to dole them out to them, are the doctors supposed to treat only those who do?
>
> What I meant was that, if someone was that high a suicide risk, at that time, they shouldn't have access to enough drugs to do this. If that means having someone at home lock up their meds, that's probably better than the alternative -- which would be to hospitalize them.
>
> Most of the time, even depressed, I can be safe having access to my meds, because I'm not an immediate danger to myself. When I get to the point of being suicidal, though, I can't. At that point, I need to be protected from myself -- which means either locking up my meds and giving them to me on schedule, or it means locking me up.
>
> The story told here looks as though there might have been some warning signs, especially since he had a history of suicide attempts.
>
> I'm sorry if you were offended by what I suggested, but I'll stand by it.
I personally agree with everything you have written in this post, racer. I miss my dad so much, and this happened 21 years ago. There are so many "if onlys" that I have on my mind...
"if only they had just locked his meds away"
"if only they had put him in an institution for as long as need be"
"if only they had gone to a different doctor"
"if only he could have made it to 1987, when prozac came out"
"if only my mom had called police first, instead of that doctor"if only if only if only....
if only these things could have been different, maybe my dad would still be alive. Even if he was still at risk for suicide and living in an institution, I would be so grateful to have him in this world with me. I know that is very selfish of me to say that, but suicide itself is an incredibly selfish act.
I have always thought that if just looking at ME - his five year old little girl - was not enough to save his life, then nothing could have snapped him out of. That is hard for me to swallow, but at the same time it makes me aware of the direness in the situation.
Still, I am furious with this doc, and if I find out some negiligence was made, I plan on filing a report with the Board of MEdical Examiners. He is no longer practicing, but I feel he must know how much hell I have been through because of this.
I do know someone that lives near him. One of their mutal neighbors had a car accident, and when the doctor saw the lady in the yard he started asking if she wanted him to prescribe her some pain pills. She politely declined, but when I heard this happened I was shocked. I thought it spoke so much about his character as a doc.
This is the end of the thread.
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