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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Racer on July 3, 2007, at 23:49:22
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
>
> I just want to know why H has such an enourmous antidepressant effect on me. Why am I so crippled without it?I'd guess, if the morphine didn't have any mood brightening effect on you, that it's not the heroin -- but rather something it's being cut with. Or maybe it's the method of ingestion?
Whatever it is, though, I have to join others in advising against it. And not because you might become addicted, either. What is actually in the "heroin" you're taking? Unless you send it to a friendly lab to check, you really don't know. It could be cut with all sorts of things, and it probably has some other psychoactive substances in it. (A lot of dealers cut drugs with substances which will mimic the effects of the real drug -- thus "cocaine" often contains lidocaine, etc.)
I have no moral outrage over the idea of using street drugs. I do, however, advise against it for practical reasons. The primary reason being, of course, the one listed above: you don't know what you're really getting.
It sounds as though you've tried a fair number of things. I'm not familiar with the way the NHS works, so forgive me if this is all idiotic under that system. Do you see the same pdoc when you see one? Or are you shifted amongst anyone available? If you have been able to see one doctor, have you been able to get him/her on your team? Or is it just a "You're depressed? Here's an SSRI..." sort of thing? (When I was uninsured, one doctor at the county was terrible that way. I asked what sort of drug she was giving me, and she said, "It's an antidepressant, just take it." I asked what class, and she said, "It's a new one. It'll make you better." I was not impressed...)
I'm sorry if anything I've said leads you to feel worse. I would strongly urge you to get a complete physical exam, though -- if you're this depressed, and nothing has helped, it's time to look for a physical cause. Truly -- my rule of thumb is that I deserve the same level of care I insist on for my animals. That doesn't always happen, of course... But it does mean that physical causes must be ruled out before we say that it's all in my head...
Good luck.
Posted by Deputy 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 1:35:54
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Maria3667, posted by saturn on July 3, 2007, at 21:03:49
> This is inappropriate, unacceptable and completely uncalled for.
Saturn,
I realize you were supporting Babak, but civility rules require you to do this without leading anyone else to feel accused or put down. So, in the future if you have an objection to something in a post here, please use the "Notify the administrators" button located at the bottom of each post, instead of pointing it out on the board.
In this case, Racer had already issued a warning to the poster in question before you posted this, so notification was/is not needed.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 2:47:31
In reply to Re: Heroin as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Racer on July 3, 2007, at 23:49:22
Thanks for your input.
But it can not be the stuff that the heroine is cut with because I have bought over a long period of time from different dealers. I have had really bad H and really good H but the effect was always the same. My level of interest increases, my mood is lifted and I am physically more active.
I have seen at least a dozen Pdocs, NHS and private ones from Harley Street. I have tried all classes of antidepressants, even MIOA which I had to stop because it gave me high blood presure and I ended up in hospital. Every time I have ended up with the same one; Effexor.
Mode of ingestion for heroine and morphine we both the same, i.e oral (I sniff heroine as I don't like the smell of it when smoking it).
I have had MRI, full blood test, ECG and all sorts of other exminations.
Could it be that my brain just doesn't produce enough endorphine? I say this because I have a very low pain threshold. What ever it is it seems to be getting worse with age.
Posted by Sigismund on July 4, 2007, at 2:48:25
In reply to Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 19:15:27
When you say it is getting out of hand, I wonder exactly what you mean.
The important thing with opiates is not to get a habit.
I was in your situation, and worse from the sound of what you say (although perhaps not so depressed) for many years.
I have reservations about how much of my history I want archived forever again here.
Nutritional medicine is the thing that helped me.
Posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:13:01
In reply to Please follow site guidelines » saturn, posted by Deputy 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 1:35:54
Babak,
First of all I want to apologise to you. I didn't mean to blow you off, I just wanted to keep you from getting into (worse) harm. Secondly I apologise to the board for my strong wording.
Babak, now that you have explained your situation a little further I think you are taking the right road to recovery. Eventhough the reward might not be instanteneous, it's saver than trying opoids.
It's taken me 20 years before I had my depression conquered. It was a slow path with psychotherapy, grouptherapy and many meds. What greatly improved my situation was Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), a new therapy. In the end I got there and at present I don't need any AD.
You also mention having low energy and not being sexually active. This makes me wonder, have you had your testosterone levels checked? It's a well known fact low testosterone can lead to depression, fatigue & demotivation too. May be this is an option worth exploring...?
As you said there's a chance hard core drugs can cause permanent brain damage - something which could aggrevate your situation. Opiods might seem like a 'quick fix' but in the long run could make your life living hell (especially if you become addicted). This is not a risk you want to take, do you?
My best,
Maria
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:14:15
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Sigismund on July 4, 2007, at 2:48:25
Thanks for your input.
I wonder what kind of nutritional medicine worked for you.
By getting out of hand I mean that the frequency of my heroine use is on the increase and I am worried that the dosage is increasing as well.
One more point is that H doesn't actually cure my depression it just hightens my mood enough to get up and do a few necessary things.
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:20:39
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant, posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:13:01
Thank you Maria
That is exactly what I am worried about but permenant brain damage from Heroine is not documented and people have kicked it after years of heavy usage.
I don't think they offer TMS in UK but if you know otherwise I would love to have more information.
I am waiting for this VNS therapy but it is going to be months and I just don't know how to go on until then, that is if it turns out to be succesful.
Posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:32:24
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant » Maria3667, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:20:39
Hi Babak,
As a matter of fact, a friend of mine is starting TMS-therapy very soon. Although it is still in the testing phase, there's a company in my country offering it to people willing to participate in a clinical setting. She has an appointment next Friday.
It's not very far away from you. All you have to do is cross the North Sea.
> Thank you Maria
>
> That is exactly what I am worried about but permenant brain damage from Heroine is not documented and people have kicked it after years of heavy usage.
>
> I don't think they offer TMS in UK but if you know otherwise I would love to have more information.
>
> I am waiting for this VNS therapy but it is going to be months and I just don't know how to go on until then, that is if it turns out to be succesful.
Posted by Squiggles on July 4, 2007, at 8:18:34
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
> I just want to know why H has such an enourmous antidepressant effect on me. Why am I so crippled without it?My guess would be that it is such a strong anxiolytic and euphoric drug. So much literature on its qualities of easing all worry, all pain, all anxiety; Sir William Osler (old McGill Victorian dr.) called 'God's own medicine', and there is so much literature on its power to send you to oblivion. You might read Quincey's book for a nice description of the heaven and hell of opium, for example.
Given all that, if you say you are crippled without it (and i guess you mean you are emotionally unhappy, not physically crippled), then I would guess you have DEPRESSION, and the heroin is lifting you out of it.
Again, from what i have read on the literature, it is pretty awful getting off (see "Trainspotting"), but I have also read reports that at a very tiny dose it is good for things like bronchitis and diarrhea and stomach ailments, without great risk of the horrors of withdrawal in addiction. Question is, how much would you need for depression;
The fact that it's illegal presents very special problems. I know that many people are now addicted to Vicodin and opiate copies-- if that is what works for you for depression, maybe you should speak to your doctor about it as an alternative to heroin.
Squiggles
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 8:46:33
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant, posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:32:24
Where is your country and do you have a contact number or email address I can use.
It will really be appreciated
Thanks again
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 9:01:37
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Squiggles on July 4, 2007, at 8:18:34
That is very interesting, I use opium on and off for over ten years and then I wanted to come off it but I kept getting this stomuch pain which wouldn't go away even after a year without opium. Finally it turned out to be related to my depression and had nothing to do with opium withdrawal as I kept telling the doctors. An increase in my Effexor dosage stopped the pain but by then I was hooked on Subutex which was hell to kick. It took a month to come off subutex.
It was while I was on subutex that I developed this severe anhedonia. So I ma just wondering may be this anhedonia is related to Subutex & opiods which is a common withdrawal symptoms with heroine addicts but in my case it doesn't go away, not even a year after I came of Subutex and stayed clean of all opiods.
My fear is that opiods, subutex included has permenantly changed my brain chemistry. But is this possible? Is there any documented case or evidence of such permenant change?
It is this adhedonia which is cripling.Can anyone shed some light on this?
Posted by Squiggles on July 4, 2007, at 9:06:56
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 9:01:37
> Can anyone shed some light on this?There are a lot of hits i got under key
names "brain damage" "heroin" "opiates" on
the net, as i am sure you could too. For
example:http://www.rense.com/health3/dragon.htm
But I would not sound the alarm bell, as it
is smoking it that is most pernicious, and
at high dosages-- something which probably
excludes your case.Squiggles
Posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 11:49:41
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant » Maria3667, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 8:46:33
Hi Babak,
From the website I gather it's in several places in my country (Holland). Below is the link:
http://www.qeeg.nl/?language_id=2
Good luck!
Maria
> Where is your country and do you have a contact number or email address I can use.
>
> It will really be appreciated
>
> Thanks again
Posted by Racer on July 4, 2007, at 14:17:27
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant » Maria3667, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 8:46:33
http://www.nice.org.uk/article.aspx?o=ip346consultation
Apparently, TMS was actually developed in England, at Sheffield, and NICE seems to be studying it. That might suggest that you can find it a bit closer to home.
Yes, heroin can make people feel better. There are a lot of drawbacks to it, though -- and I will always point to additives and lack of quality control as the two biggest dangers involved. If you can find a pdoc who's willing to work with you to find a workable solution, it might just involve opiates. Several people here have had success using a combination including opiates.
Have you been able to try any sort of psychostimulant? Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine? That's made a big difference for me...
Good luck, whatever you end up doing. And I have heard very, very good things about TMS. My fancy pdoc says he's pretty hot on it, because his patients have done so well with it. He said he's sent them to clinical trials in this country, as well as sending them over the border to Canada when it was approved there.
Posted by revaaron on July 4, 2007, at 14:44:47
In reply to Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 19:15:27
Babak-
Not sure if my previous post was deleted (does that happen?), but I posted a long rambling thing about my experience with this. Email me if you want very detailed first hand information about this. revXaaron at hotXmail dot com (take out the Xes).
Three points are the gist of it:
1. Many have people traveled this road after discovering what you have. Most have found that using recreational doses of opiates just isn't sustainable. Even if you manage to keep yourself supplied (which is harder for street drugs) and keep the tolerance and desire to continue pushing up your dose, there is a time after which the opiate will no longer make you happy, give you energy, and motivate you. It'll make you sedated, lethargic and possibly even dysphoric, which will likely make your worse depression than it is now. And then you go into WDs, which is a new world of incredible depression even in folks who never had it before opiates. It might take a few months or a couple years, but after a while opiates just stop working for the euphoric joy they give you if you take them day in day out without going through a full WD every once. Like I said, not sustainable.
2. Using any street drug as an AD is a horrible idea. If even after point 1 and general knowledge of what opiate addiction is like you want to try using an opiate as an antidepressant, look into bupe, methadone, or at least something else prescription or another known quanity, like poppy pods.
Bupe has the added plus in that it isn't a full agonist like morphine and heroin, it keeps tolerance in check.
3. If life is this crippling, there are some other things to try beyond the SSRIs that are worthwhile. Like others have mentioned, it sounds like more than just garden variety depression.
Posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 20:11:55
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » FredPotter, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:59:19
Hardly! No platitudes. It's a vile, disgusting book. Actually in reading Charlie Parker's life it's said that the heroin didn't interfere with his ability to play, but alcohol did. The alcohol killed him in the end, not the heroin
Posted by Phillipa on July 4, 2007, at 20:34:55
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 20:11:55
Methadone is being used by a girl who moved in with her family across the street supplied daily as she was an opiod addict and she's not even depressed anymore. I think she's also on seroquel? Please stop using the heroine. Here we have a show on TV called Intervention and the people using have horrible deterioration of their mind and bodies. Love Phillipa
Posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 23:41:21
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Phillipa on July 4, 2007, at 20:34:55
I've tried methadone pills a few times. They seemed to lift depression and anxiety but only after about 3 hours, so perhaps I imagined it. You do hear of people who keep their heroin use under control and it keeps them free of pain and living a normal life, but I'm far too fond of euphoria to go anywhere near the stuff
Posted by revaaron on July 5, 2007, at 0:10:15
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Sigismund, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:14:15
Babak, a couple of nutritional ideas- L-tyrosine or L-phenylalanine for dopamine production; D-phenylalanine to increase your brain's internal level of opiate (endorphins); and 5-HTP for serotonin. I would try them each seperately, each for at least a week, maybe each one in turn. They can all be taken safely together, but if you can figure out which one is helping the most it might give you some insight as to which neurotransmitters you've got out of whack. I can tell you that with doses of DL-phenylalanine I've gotten relief from opiate cravings.
All of these nutritional supplements have had relatively quick effects. If I'm suffering from serotonin deficiency-induced depression I feel the 5-HTP like a high that I start to feel after only 20 minutes. If I'm not, it just makes me a little sleepy. The DL-phenylalanine doesn't come on as quick, but I notice a definate difference in opiate-related desire and WD symptoms, as well as more energy. The L-tyrosine I felt in a more subtle way, but I could notice a difference in my energy levels within a couple days of dosing with it.
Just out of curiousity: are you disabled? Do you have a job?
Also what do you mean by "H doesn't actually cure my depression"? I mean, for folks with chronic depression nothing usually "cures" their depression- it just makes life livable. With others, being treated for 6 months is enough to bring them out of it.
What was being on a stimulant like for you, if you ever have been? Some have had a lot of luck with dextroamphetamine as an AD. When I've been on it for AD/HD it completely kills my desire to get high, even though I don't feel high on it. I've always had a huge interest in experimenting and reading about various drugs, but when I was on the opiates I also lost interest in other drugs in a very profound way, where even drinking or smoking weed in social situations evoked zero interest.
Posted by revaaron on July 5, 2007, at 0:23:33
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 23:41:21
> ...but I'm far too fond of euphoria to go
> anywhere near the stuffBut that's the truly insidious thing about using most opiates as an anything but a pain med, whether as a treatment for AD/HD, social anxiety, generalized anxiety or depression. The euphoria is great and incredibly helpful in a lot of ways. But even if you decide outright to give your life to opium, heroin, or whatever, even if you say "I like this so much, and it helps so much that it's worth being an addict for the rest of my life, if that's what it takes." Even if you make that choice and have an endless pure supply of opiate it still isn't going to work. After a while, the euphoria is gone. This has nothing to do with tolerance in the sense most folks think of it- you can increase your dose and you still won't be euphoric, until you've had too much and have the negative effects of a minor OD (sweating, extreme sedation, naseua, dizziness). The euphoria of opiates is the most enjoyable drug imaginable for some (including me), but after a year or two, it just doesn't work like it did at first. I'd be willing to pay a lot of money to somehow magically restore my opiate receptors to the state they were in 10 years ago. I'm not addicted to them now in anyway, and haven't had any for months. And before that, not for months again, but the last time I did have an opiate, months after the dose before that, I still didn't get anywhere near the euphoria of the first year or two I was using on a regular basis.
That's the worst thing- when all you want is that high, but nothing in the world will be able to get it. No amount of money, no amount of drug, no potentiators, etc. Which basically means that you either keep wasting money and possibly your health (the opiates never negatively effected me outside of a weight gain from my metabolism being so slow and a poor libido and soft penis). I don't have a horror story about how I lost it all because of opiates. I've never watched a friend die. I don't have HIV or hep C. I never have been rushed to the hospital or had to rush a friend to the hospital. I've never put anything into my vein. I never hit "rock bottom," like a lot of heroin addicts do. I didn't lose anything but the drive to make love to my wife, thousands of dollars (cheap compared to heroin!) the motivation to keep fit, some mental wellbeing (made it dysphoric and depressed after a many years); it did give me sleep apnea and some depression/dysphoria. Not good things, but they're nothing compared to a the kinds of things street drug addicts go through.
What I tried to say before: the most insidious thing about opiates is that when the feeling they give you is what you want the most is when you longer get that feeling and have no way to get it back other than not using for a long time.
Posted by maria3667 on July 8, 2007, at 18:35:23
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » FredPotter, posted by revaaron on July 5, 2007, at 0:23:33
Well,
Babak, where R U?
We are all trying to help you, but you seemed to have dissapeared of the surface of the earth?
Please give us a sign you are alright. I really hope you have taken notice of the sound advice many people have given you. You may not believe it, but there's loads out there WHO CARE FOR YOU !
Posted by deniseuk190466 on July 9, 2007, at 15:26:40
In reply to Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 19:15:27
Babak,
I feel for you I really do, you are just doing what you can at the moment to survive.
If you are interested in DBS for depression, they were supposed to be starting trials for this over a year ago in Bristol. It might be worthwhile your contacting them.
I could get you the email address if you are interested but you need to get a referral from a Doctor or psychiatrist.
Best Wishes. I hope you get the help you need soon.
Denise
Posted by F00TBALL on July 10, 2007, at 16:22:13
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Phillipa on July 4, 2007, at 20:34:55
While I do not believe using an illegal substance is a particularly good way to treat depression, if you have decided to give that route a try, have you ever considering using Ecstasy instead of Heroin?
It is considered to be much safer, much less addictive, and IMO more effective then H. It's also a stimulant, so along with evaporating your depression, you'll have a lot more energy and motivation.Just a thought.
Posted by FredPotter on July 10, 2007, at 19:40:38
In reply to A different thought., posted by F00TBALL on July 10, 2007, at 16:22:13
> While I do not believe using an illegal substance is a particularly good way to treat depression, if you have decided to give that route a try, have you ever considering using Ecstasy instead of Heroin?
> It is considered to be much safer, much less addictive, and IMO more effective then H. It's also a stimulant, so along with evaporating your depression, you'll have a lot more energy and motivation.
>
> Just a thought.Until the serotonin crash gets you and you become more depressed than ever
Posted by revaaron on July 10, 2007, at 20:34:50
In reply to A different thought., posted by F00TBALL on July 10, 2007, at 16:22:13
First: Another random thought- probably not, considering what Babak has said about other opiates, but I think DLPA or just D-phenylalanine would be at least worth trying. Anyone know where to buy bulk DPA, not just overpriced capsules of the stuff?
On MDMA:
Good try, but I think that using MDMA would probably be a lot worse, at least in the recreational doses folks usually use and in typical usage patterns. MDMA can be pretty neurotoxic, where as most opiates used properly, are not all that bad for you, physically. Not saying physical addiction is a good thing, but MDMA and meth/dextro/levoamphetamine carry with them the possibility of both physical addiction and neurological damage, at least in typical abuse dosages.I've no doubt that MDMA can be a useful tool for therapy (like traditional psychedelics, Iboga, etc) when used once in a while, with or without someone in the role of therapist to guide a person through the experience.
MDMA is very far down on my list for 'off label' daily ADs. After using MDMA for a few days in a row its become a lot more like garden variety amphetamine than MDMA. I don't know if an SSRI or 5-HTP would keep this from happening, but still, it isn't a good idea. What'd be the point? Why not try dextroamphetamine or Desoxyn, both of which have proven efficacy and pretty good track record as ADs- and it's a lot more likely you could find some radical doc to prescribe them.
MDMA just isn't an every day sort of drug, even if you don't take safety or the possibility of permanent neurological damage into account. Not to mention the cost of MDMA, how relatively rare it still is in pills sold as "ecstacy" on the street, which can contain all sorts of other drugs, some of which might badly exacerbate a depressed person's condition.
I wonder if there have been studies on the long term effectiveness or danger of of using low dose MDMA for depression? Not bloody likely considering the legal status of MDMA.
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