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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by saturn on July 2, 2007, at 16:59:11
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by linkadge on July 2, 2007, at 16:05:50
>
>>>Some people also find help with 5-htp, (amino acid precursor to serotonin)Please do NOT take 5-htp with Paxil or any other psych med without your doc's explicit approval. It could result in serotonin syndrome (potentially lethal).
Posted by big time on July 2, 2007, at 17:01:24
In reply to paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by belljar on July 2, 2007, at 15:23:09
i totally sympatize. paxil sent me into a hell of ocd and depression that i have spent years trying to fix. i'll never take an ssri again. it does get better though. i've found cognitive behavioral therapy helpful because it attacks the ocd and depression that come from withdrawal. (don't know if i'm allowed to talk about therapy on this medication discussion board.)
Posted by mike lynch on July 2, 2007, at 20:23:34
In reply to paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by belljar on July 2, 2007, at 15:23:09
YES YES YES!! I was put on paxil at the age of 15 (who kinda doctor gives this hellish drug to a 15 year old!! it's been banned for those under 18 in most countries!!) Ever since coming off paxil, my memory has been horrible, i have no motivation, i can't feel like i can relate to people, my thoughts are slow, everything that made me unique and made life worth living is gone, i have no desire, passion, or life anymore. my sex drive is f*cked up, all i do is sleep
Posted by linkadge on July 2, 2007, at 21:21:46
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by mike lynch on July 2, 2007, at 20:23:34
>Ever since coming off paxil, my memory has been >horrible, i have no motivation, i can't feel >like i can relate to people, my thoughts are >slow, everything that made me unique and made >life worth living is gone, i have no desire, >passion, or life anymore. my sex drive is f*cked >up, all i do is sleep
Wow. I never thought somebody could sumarize so succinctly in so few words what I have endured. Given SSRI's at 16. The rest, well you said it!!
The only thing I could add with me (now 24) is that I feel an incredable void, like a perpetual sense of wanting.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on July 2, 2007, at 21:53:28
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ????? » mike lynch, posted by linkadge on July 2, 2007, at 21:21:46
Again I guess I was lucky. Love Phillipa
Posted by mike lynch on July 2, 2007, at 21:58:39
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ????? » mike lynch, posted by linkadge on July 2, 2007, at 21:21:46
> >Ever since coming off paxil, my memory has been >horrible, i have no motivation, i can't feel >like i can relate to people, my thoughts are >slow, everything that made me unique and made >life worth living is gone, i have no desire, >passion, or life anymore. my sex drive is f*cked >up, all i do is sleep
>
> Wow. I never thought somebody could sumarize so succinctly in so few words what I have endured. Given SSRI's at 16. The rest, well you said it!!
>
> The only thing I could add with me (now 24) is that I feel an incredable void, like a perpetual sense of wanting.
>
>
> Linkadge
Believe me, I've had enough practice expressing my hell with this drug. Any thread regarding paxil horror experiences, or problems with ssri's will probably possess my input. I won't ignore and become complacent as to what these drugs have done to me, right now I can only spread awareness, or maybe someone will see my message and have some answers. I am doing my best, trying different supplements like gingko biloba, l-tyrosine,, 5-htp, sam-e, anything in an attempt to normalize my system, but it's so hard when you've been drained in everyway possible by these drugs. I don't think my life will ever be normal, Im 20 years old and haven't experienced many things, some of which may now not even be possible. it just doesen't make sense, and it's definitely not fair. there's absolutely 0 support for me or anyone who suffers from these problems, doctors, therapists, parents, friends, none of them will accept or believe or understand this.
>
Posted by belljar on July 3, 2007, at 0:09:38
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by mike lynch on July 2, 2007, at 21:58:39
You guys impress me so much. My nightmare started at age 28 - I'm 41 now. I can't believe that you're in your 20s and are so wise. You already know so much and have tried all of these things that I've never even heard of. Wow. I feel so empowered right now. If you can do this, so can I. I'm going to continue weaning off the paxil and I'm going to start trying these alternatives that you suggested. Can't be worse than drooling.
You mention that sex drive still isn't back. The last 2 times I got off paxil I found that sexual response came back after 8 or 9 months, so don't totally despair. There is one SSRI that I tried years ago, Serzone, it increased sex drive (but made me really violent and angry, decided it wasn't worth it !)As messed up as you are feeling, I hope that you know that your experience and the fact that you are here helping others is quite amazing.
Thank you.Belljar
Posted by mike lynch on July 3, 2007, at 0:27:42
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by belljar on July 3, 2007, at 0:09:38
> You guys impress me so much. My nightmare started at age 28 - I'm 41 now. I can't believe that you're in your 20s and are so wise. You already know so much and have tried all of these things that I've never even heard of. Wow. I feel so empowered right now. If you can do this, so can I. I'm going to continue weaning off the paxil and I'm going to start trying these alternatives that you suggested. Can't be worse than drooling.
> You mention that sex drive still isn't back. The last 2 times I got off paxil I found that sexual response came back after 8 or 9 months, so don't totally despair. There is one SSRI that I tried years ago, Serzone, it increased sex drive (but made me really violent and angry, decided it wasn't worth it !)
>
> As messed up as you are feeling, I hope that you know that your experience and the fact that you are here helping others is quite amazing.
> Thank you.
>
> Belljar
>I appreciate anything that you gained from the post. As for the sex drive. I am 20 years old, and I've been off the drug for much more then a year, and at this point, it doesen't look like it will ever be the same.. I am trying to correct this and I am getting moderate success with certain supplements. Quite sad that I have to worry about something like that now..
Posted by Sigismund on July 3, 2007, at 3:07:22
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by mike lynch on July 3, 2007, at 0:27:42
You're not the only ones.
There are the Accutane > SSRIs > never feeling right people (2 I can think of).
You reckon Seroctin would be of any use for you?
Or worse than useless?Unfortunately I can't give you a decent link.
Posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 8:50:20
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by mike lynch on July 2, 2007, at 21:58:39
Thats exactly the problem. If you're withdrawing from heroin, you get medical treatment. Heroin abusers are breaking the law! Yet law abiding citicens people who are suffering withdrawl from prescription SSRI's get ZERO support.
I'd even recomend using opiates over SSRI's. SSRI's rewire the human brain. When you come off its not just simple withdrawl, its the fact that your brain will not work the same again. Heroin withdrawl is painfull, but once its over you usually don't have residual symptoms like say...inability to walk in a straight line?
There should really be rehabilitation programs for survivors of SSRI's. Sure some people don't have too much problem, but I am working under the assumption that the young (ie the developing brain) has a harder time adjusting if it was developed around a drug. People who have taken the drugs longer ususally also have a harder time getting off.
And the doctors just follow the b.s. package inserts. "What, withdrawl??...no, if there was withdrawl, it would be listed here on this insert"
They either just believe the drug companies, or just don't want to make trouble.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 8:54:25
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by belljar on July 3, 2007, at 0:09:38
Even after all of this, (including my anger towards the whole situation) there is always hope.
I mean the worst of the withdrawl is over. Ie. all the physical stuff. The mood swings etc have gone. My mood is low, but predictable.
So, while there are aspects that may take a lot longer to get better, there is hope that withdrawl is possable.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 8:58:01
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by mike lynch on July 3, 2007, at 0:27:42
I have the same problem. I don't care though. In some ways I'd rather be asexual.
(I am gay, living in a very homophobic society)
Sorry for the graphic side note, but I just wanted to say yes, I have the same effect.
There is little drive, desire, ability, sensation, you name it.
Linkadge
Posted by polarbear206 on July 3, 2007, at 14:52:32
In reply to paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by belljar on July 2, 2007, at 15:23:09
> I must have read every paxil comment on the web - users for a few years being told that the side effects go away after a few months... But my most successful withdrawal time was 2 years - and I was still not back to normal. I am hoping that someone out there will have similar experiences to mine and can offer some ideas.
> I have been on paxil since the beginning - 1993. Before it, I has some anxiety and OCD issues. I stopped in 1998 to have a baby - one year of HELL happened. Terrified to leave the house. OCD behaviours took over my life. Afraid of everyone. Manic eposides. Doctors diagnosed me with "panic disorder". Put me back on paxil. I so regret it. When i exceed 20 mg I become an angry, violent, egomaniac. 10mg the anxiety creeps in. So I bounce back and forth. Tried to wean off it in 1995. Lasted 9 months. Was paranoid, hid in my office at work, scared to come out.... foolishly agreed to back on it and to go see a new Psyc. He said I was Bipolar and put me on risperdol on top of the paxil (and ritalin and trazodone by then). I couldn't get out of bed and drooled all of the time. couldn't talk. Couldn't work (try and teach senior mathematics when you can't remember the times tables... ) My husband and I decided to just suffer thru the paxil. Another 2 years go by and here I am still on 15mg of paxil. 12 years of this drug - and I'm scared it's causing damage. Dark spots have appeared on my liver, docs don't know why. I have problems finding words ... I'll pick up a sock and ask my child to put this "thingy" in the .. and have to point at the sock drawer 'cause I can't find the word. I am angry. Violent. I make noises and have physical tics. I lash out at people when I get scared that I'm losing control (which is all of the time). I eat compulsively, craving food all day. I read these forums and desperately search for answers, but no one seems to have been on it this long. I can't go back to the "travelling psyc" that comes thru town, he gets mean and says that if I would listen to him and just stay on anypsychotics (so what's a little drool between friends) I'd be happy. Fat and drooly, but happy.
>
> Liver damgage. memory loss. confusion. anger. food nightmares. can't talk to people, unable to carry on conversations. Coworkers think I'm crazy (hmm, wonder why) ? No access to specialists. Family doctors don't know of any paxil complications. ?
>
> I've started weaning off again - but how many years will it take to get back to the way I was before this horrid drug - a little bit of anxiety and having to check my curling iron "unplugged" 5 times after leaving the house ? That all seems not so bad in comparison to this.
>
> Anyone out there been through this ? Any happy endings ? (please ?)
Hi Belljar,Keep in mind that pregnancy and postpartum can exacerbate an underlying mental illness. You said that pre Paxil days you had anxiety and OCD issues. I wouldn't put all the blame of your symptoms on your horrible Paxil experience. I went through a very simular situation. Your doctor was right to suspect a bipolar diagnosis, however I do not agree with his drug choice. "If" you do have an underlying bipolar spectrum disorder, (which I suspect you might), Paxil monotherapy is not the way to treat it. To get off Paxil, Prozac would be a good choice, because it has a long half-life. I switched from Paxil to Effexor with minimal problems. I was on 30mg of Paxil at one time and it caused me to cycle with anger, agigtation, hypersomnia, insomnia, food cravings, binge eating, and so on. Having said that, I know where you are coming from!! What you really need to do is wean off the Paxil very very slowly while introducing Prozac or an SNRI, such as Effexor. Lamictal would be a good choice for a mood stabilizer. No side effects like the typical and atypical antipsychotics. Risperdal is usually not a 1st choice of treatment. It is given alot for Bipolar 1 with psychotic features who are hard to treat and do not respond to others. You are never going to know if you don't give it a try.
Polarbear
Posted by polarbear206 on July 3, 2007, at 14:59:30
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ????? » mike lynch, posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 8:58:01
Posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 16:40:49
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by polarbear206 on July 3, 2007, at 14:52:32
>Your doctor was right to suspect a bipolar >diagnosis, however I do not agree with his drug >choice.
I wouldn't necessarily say so. SSRI withdrawl can be a very trying experience. Users often state things such as having had emotions (which had been bottled up for some time) unleashed. When you come off of an SSRI you start to use parts of your brain that had been chemically filtered for a long time.
I don't think it is uncommon to exerpeince mood swings (sometimes significant) when trying to discontinue and then reinstitute certain of these drugs.
My first "bipolar" diagosis, was not when I was on celexa. In fact, I had been stable on celexa for over 3 years - no mood swings. It was when I came off celexa that I started to experience major mood swings including psychosis. The psychosis part is also not uncommon. SSRI's supress dopamine function, and when you discontinue you can get a dopamine rebound.
Pub Med, has reports of SSRI and venlafaxine withdrawl producing symtpoms resembling bipolar, in individuals who have no previous bipolar tendancies.
It takes a while to reballence when coming off SSRI's, but I wouldn't necessarily pin bipolar on yourself on account of SSRI withdrawl mood swings.
P.S. I also had bouts of intense and severe rage when coming off SSRI's. All I wanted to do was smash things. 2 years later, drug free, these behaviors make no sense to me, but I realize now it was the withdrawl.
Linkadge
Posted by mike lynch on July 3, 2007, at 19:25:24
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ????? » mike lynch, posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 8:50:20
> Thats exactly the problem. If you're withdrawing from heroin, you get medical treatment. Heroin abusers are breaking the law! Yet law abiding citicens people who are suffering withdrawl from prescription SSRI's get ZERO support.
>
> I'd even recomend using opiates over SSRI's. SSRI's rewire the human brain. When you come off its not just simple withdrawl, its the fact that your brain will not work the same again. Heroin withdrawl is painfull, but once its over you usually don't have residual symptoms like say...inability to walk in a straight line?
>
> There should really be rehabilitation programs for survivors of SSRI's. Sure some people don't have too much problem, but I am working under the assumption that the young (ie the developing brain) has a harder time adjusting if it was developed around a drug. People who have taken the drugs longer ususally also have a harder time getting off.
>
> And the doctors just follow the b.s. package inserts. "What, withdrawl??...no, if there was withdrawl, it would be listed here on this insert"
>
> They either just believe the drug companies, or just don't want to make trouble.
>
>
> Linkadge
And the reason for this is because the professionals have no problem admitting heroin is harmful, yet I've heard many stories of doctors who don't even accept the premise of withdrawal with anti-depressants, which is the most hellish aspect of the drug. Withdrawal has only recently gained acknowledgment as "discontinuation syndrome" The pharmaceutical industry knew about it all along, just like the studies that were repressed citing suicidal idealation in children under 18 which led to the drug being banned in several european countries. SSRI's have been out for decades and the pharmaceutical industry is just now, reluctantly revealing these facts. I swear I would rather have been addicted to heroin or even crystal meth, because honestly I've never heard of these long lasting problems resulting from either. I am *past* withdrawal and I am still experience this sh*t. I see meth users being interviewed in documentaries and I don't see them forgetting words, acting slow, or dead. Seriously you can recover from even hardcore drug abuse, but I just can't get passed this. Why does serotonin have to be so vitally important in every aspect of human functioning.
Posted by Maximus on July 3, 2007, at 19:25:58
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ????? » mike lynch, posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 8:58:01
> I have the same problem. I don't care though. In some ways I'd rather be asexual.
Once someone has been on SSRIs/SNRIs, sexuality is impaired and changed forever. Yohimbine, ginkgo biloba and other mystical herbs are risable solutions.
If you want to gain back a sex life, you have to use big guns like: testosterone patch, "CLEAN" 5HT2a antagonists and Viagra.
I'm wondering why most psychiatrists underestimate the impact of this side effect...
Posted by mike lynch on July 3, 2007, at 19:30:18
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ????? » linkadge, posted by Maximus on July 3, 2007, at 19:25:58
> > I have the same problem. I don't care though. In some ways I'd rather be asexual.
>
> Once someone has been on SSRIs/SNRIs, sexuality is impaired and changed forever. Yohimbine, ginkgo biloba and other mystical herbs are risable solutions.
>
> If you want to gain back a sex life, you have to use big guns like: testosterone patch, "CLEAN" 5HT2a antagonists and Viagra.
>
> I'm wondering why most psychiatrists underestimate the impact of this side effect...
>
>Yup.. for others to look into.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSSD
Posted by brooke484 on July 3, 2007, at 19:44:55
In reply to paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by belljar on July 2, 2007, at 15:23:09
The only way I could get off Paxil was to switch to Prozac. I went down to 5 mgs of Paxil and then started 20 mgs of Prozac and took that for about a week or two and I didn't have any withdrawals. Without the Prozac I had the electric shocks, chills, anxiety, etc. You name it I think I had it.
Hope you feel better. Withdrawal it horrible. I had it with klonopin. It took me a year to get off that.
brooke
Posted by Maximus on July 3, 2007, at 20:55:57
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by mike lynch on July 3, 2007, at 19:30:18
> Yup.. for others to look into.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSSD
THANKS! WE SHOULD POST THIS LINK EVERY MONTH!!!
* Decreased or absent libido
* Impotence or reduced vaginal lubrication
* Difficulty initiating or maintaining an erection or becoming aroused
* Persistent sexual arousal syndrome despite absence of desire
* Muted, delayed or absent orgasm (anorgasmia)
* Reduced or no experience of pleasure during orgasm (ejaculatory anhedonia)
* Premature ejaculation
* Weakened penile, vaginal or clitoral sensitivity
* Genital anesthesia
* Loss or decreased response to sexual stimuli
* Reduced semen volume
* Priapism"These long-term adaptive changes in 5-HT receptors, as well as more complex, global changes, are likely to be mediated through "alterations of gene expression". Some of these gene expression changes are a result of altered DNA structure caused by chromatin remodeling".
Posted by Maximus on July 3, 2007, at 21:40:48
In reply to Re: SSRIs - permanent hell ????? » mike lynch, posted by Maximus on July 3, 2007, at 20:55:57
This evening i went to the Soccer game of my youngest. It was sunny and hot. Then i was remembering to myself the golden age, before the treatment of SSRIs.
Before that, inside myself, i would have felt a burning sensation below the belt, i would have become excited to see some beautiful and sexy women. Not anymore. I see them now with detachment. I'm now a gentle daddy on pills with permament brain changes...
Posted by belljar on July 4, 2007, at 0:14:14
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by polarbear206 on July 3, 2007, at 14:52:32
Hi polarbear,
TOn of questions for you !
1. did you stay on the effexor, or is it just to get off of the paxil ?
2. are you now using it in combo with Lamictal ?
3. What kind of differences are there between effexor and prozac ?
4. DO you find your cognitive / analytic ability deadened by the Lamictal ?Belljar,
> Keep in mind that pregnancy and postpartum can exacerbate an underlying mental illness. You said that pre Paxil days you had anxiety and OCD issues. I wouldn't put all the blame of your symptoms on your horrible Paxil experience. I went through a very simular situation. Your doctor was right to suspect a bipolar diagnosis, however I do not agree with his drug choice. "If" you do have an underlying bipolar spectrum disorder, (which I suspect you might), Paxil monotherapy is not the way to treat it. To get off Paxil, Prozac would be a good choice, because it has a long half-life. I switched from Paxil to Effexor with minimal problems. I was on 30mg of Paxil at one time and it caused me to cycle with anger, agigtation, hypersomnia, insomnia, food cravings, binge eating, and so on. Having said that, I know where you are coming from!! What you really need to do is wean off the Paxil very very slowly while introducing Prozac or an SNRI, such as Effexor. Lamictal would be a good choice for a mood stabilizer. No side effects like the typical and atypical antipsychotics. Risperdal is usually not a 1st choice of treatment. It is given alot for Bipolar 1 with psychotic features who are hard to treat and do not respond to others. You are never going to know if you don't give it a try.
>
> Polarbear
>
>
>
Posted by tendency on July 4, 2007, at 10:02:52
In reply to paxil - permanent hell ?????, posted by belljar on July 2, 2007, at 15:23:09
Couple other things to check: get a full thyroid, hormone panel and blood work done. This should include:
TSH
free t3/t4
CBC
chemical profile of fasting blood sugar, kidney, liver function
electrolytes
calcium (rule out hyper-calcium)
basic lipid profile
testosterone (total and free - yes for a woman too)
DHEAS
Estradiol
Prolactin
FSH
CortisolNote - if your TSH is above 3 or t3/t4 are low normal then you may want to try a run of t3/t4 combo therapy.
good luck!
Posted by Deputy Racer on July 4, 2007, at 13:57:14
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ????? » mike lynch, posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 8:50:20
> Yet law abiding citicens people who are suffering withdrawl from prescription SSRI's get ZERO support.
>
> SSRI's rewire the human brain. When you come off its not just simple withdrawl, its the fact that your brain will not work the same again.
>
>
> They either just believe the drug companies, or just don't want to make trouble.
>Please don't exaggerate or jump to conclusions. And please be sensitive to those who have relied on these medications in order to function. You've been warned about this before, but I'm choosing to warn you again rather than blocking you.
If you have any questions about this policy, or about posting guidelines in general, please read the FAQ, located at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil Any follow ups should be directed to the Administration board.
Dr Bob has ultimate authority over administrative actions taken at this site, and may choose to revise or reverse any action taken by a deputy.
Deputy Racer
Posted by Deputy Racer on July 4, 2007, at 13:58:37
In reply to Re: paxil - permanent hell ????? » linkadge, posted by Maximus on July 3, 2007, at 19:25:58
> Once someone has been on SSRIs/SNRIs, sexuality is impaired and changed forever.Please don't exaggerate or jump to conclusions. And please be sensitive to those who have relied on these medications in order to function. I notice you received a warning about another issue in the past week, so I'm going to block you for a week this time.
If you have any questions about this policy, or about posting guidelines in general, please read the FAQ, located at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil Any follow ups should be directed to the Administration board.
Dr Bob has ultimate authority over administrative actions taken at this site, and may choose to revise or reverse any action taken by a deputy.
Deputy Racer
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