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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 6:36:26
It appears it was the Seroquel that was causing that feeling, therefore under doctors orders I went down from 150 to 50 to 25. So I no longer feel spaced out all day like Jim Morrison, but I do feel extreme fatigue (only thing else Im taking is 2mg of Klonopin at night).
Today I went and bought a bottle of No-Doz. I drink Diet Cokes all day, and they do little or nothing. Since I am trying to maintain my same weight or lose it, I dont want that sugar anymore if it's not going to help with sedation. So I bought the No-Doz and took 200mg. It helped a little better, but still sleepy. And my sleep is terrible, maybe four hours per night. Ironically, however, instead of freaking over sleep, it has made me so tired that it takes anxiety away, so not a bad tradeoff.
Anyone have any idea on how much No-Doz I should take? My BP does not rise at all on No-Doz or Cokes. Does 100mg of No-Doz = 1 Coke? Anyone know or could you take an educated guess?
Football, I know, I know, you are going to recommend Provogil, which I am considering when I go to pdoc on April 17. But if possible, Id prefer not to add any more prescription drugs. I am on four (Nardil, Klonopin, Seroquel, Purple Pill) and I already feel like a "human drug store", which bothers me.
I am closing in on two weeks of 45mg on Nardil. I am taking it for generalized anxiety, but I guess I had some social anxiety and didnt know. When I was half awake last night, I talked on the phone for two hours for the first time in forever and then in person with my family for another 30 minutes. I have always been outgoing (you can tell by my posts), but I was a freaking chatterbox LOL.
Will keep everyone posted. Thanks for responses. Michael
Posted by Phillipa on April 13, 2007, at 9:53:21
In reply to No longer stoned on Nardil, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 6:36:26
Michael glad to hear you are doing well. Sorry no answer for the no doze never taken it myself. But I sure understand about the seroquel. Love Phillipa
Posted by Sebastian on April 13, 2007, at 10:47:45
In reply to No longer stoned on Nardil, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 6:36:26
100mg no doze is a little less than 2 cokes, moutain dew is 80mg. Coffee about 70 and coke about 60, if I remember correctly.
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 12:37:13
In reply to Re: No longer stoned on Nardil, posted by Sebastian on April 13, 2007, at 10:47:45
I only took 200mg, so it's hard for me to believe that is the primary cause. I dont think I have slept more than four hours in a row since I have been on Nardil since March 28. Usually it's two here and two there, and then a 30-minute later on. Definitely got to get these sleep issues worked out.
Ive always said if I dont get my sleep, it ruins my day and makes everything (anxiety and depression) 100 times worse. But this time, it just makes me drowsy and I feel no anxiety. Maybe I can be one of those ppl who stay up for 20 out of 24 hours each day? Naw, never. I love my rest. Hopefully I will get it soon. I just have to be patient with side effects. But you know, 8-10 years ago, just the thought of this sleep trouble (not tonight) of past two weeks would have overwhelmed me with fear.
Now I realize every drug has side effects (nothing worse than Prozac). Just got to wait it out. Gosh I am chatty.
Posted by Phillipa on April 13, 2007, at 19:27:12
In reply to Re: I have been up for 26 straight hours on No Doz, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 12:37:13
Michael I'm sure this is way off but any chance that nardil cause a manic reaction? With the no sleep? And your history of anxiety? I'm not insulting you. Just curious. Love Phillipa
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 20:30:59
In reply to Re: I have been up for 26 straight hours on No Doz » UgottaHaveHope, posted by Phillipa on April 13, 2007, at 19:27:12
No insult taken, never. I appreciate all thoughts and insights on this board. I dont know whats up. Took Nardil and all of sudden very tired. I'll be back on if I cant sleep.
Posted by stargazer on April 13, 2007, at 22:10:24
In reply to No longer stoned on Nardil, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 6:36:26
Michael, what is the recommended dose of No Doz. You took 200mg, how many pills was that, perhaps it was too much? Are you trying to reverse the sleepiness you get from Nardil? Does your doc know you are taking NO Doz. I'd be careful with any OTC med especially in combination with other meds that can have cardiac effects. How are you BP and pulse on the No Doz? I would make sure you have discussed with you pdoc before taking for drowsiness. You may be better cutting down on the Klonopin or eliminating seroquel rather than taking an OTC stimulant. No Doz may have a rebound effect that is why you are not sleeping.
Stargazer
Posted by football on April 13, 2007, at 23:17:35
In reply to No Doze dose? Pdoc concurs with this?, posted by stargazer on April 13, 2007, at 22:10:24
I know your sick of me hyping Provigil, but read through these various quotes I've found online...
"Caffeine is known to interact with other drugs resulting in a modified effect. For example, caffeine administered with nardil (an MAO inhibitor) caused headaches and high blood pressure (Pakes, 1979). This potentially dangerous interaction was first noted by Berkowitz et al., (1971) and implicated serotonin in the mechanism."
"Do not drink or eat too much caffeine while you are using this medicine. Caffeine can be found in coffee, cola, chocolate, tea, and other foods and drinks. Ask your doctor how much caffeine is safe."
"Excessive amounts of caffeine or chocolate can also potentiate hypertensive reactions."
"And in people predisposed to anxiety disorders, caffeine can trigger a spiral of sensations -- sweaty palms, a pounding heart, ringing in the ears -- that leads to a full-blown panic attack."
"A questionnaire survey was conducted among medical students and 291 out of 423 initial subjects completed it. Among males, caffeine consumption was significantly and positively correlated with anxiety symptoms, when alcohol use and smoking habit were adjusted."
"Anxiety sufferers are advised to pay attention to dietary and lifestyle factors which can aggravate anxiety (Andrews,Crino, Hunt, Lampe & Page, 1994).
CAFFEINE
Avoid or limit caffeine. Chocolate, some high energy drinks, hot chocolate beverages, coffee, tea & cola drinks all contain caffeine which is a stimulant. which accelerates the fight or flight response. Caffeine can interfere with your sleep and make you more nervous. Switch to decaffeinated coffee, herbal tea and/or de-caffeinated cola drinks or reduce the number of cups of coffee/cola you have."
You mentioned you felt like you feel like you're all ready taking enough drugs and thats why you have mixed feelings about Provigil, but doesn't popping a No Doz into your mouth constitute taking another drug?
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 23:56:12
In reply to Re: No Doze dose? Pdoc concurs with this?, posted by football on April 13, 2007, at 23:17:35
You must be feeling REAL GOOD on your Nardil. That was awful nice for you to gather that quotes for me. That really meant a lot to me.
Ever since I have taken Nardil, I have been drinking 1-2 Cokes per day. They didn't seem to help with daytime sedation, so I wanted to take a caffeine pill (No Doz) instead. I did take it WITHOUT pdoc's consent. However, I did check my BP and it has been fine everytime.
But staying up 38 hours in a row is not healthy. I worked out tonight (30 minutes on bike) like a beast after no sleep in more than a day. So somewhere I am getting all of this extra energy and it had to come from No Doz, which I did not take again.
I really dont know what to do over the weekend. I see pdoc on Tuesday and will try to get this all figured out. Yes, No Doz I guess would constitute another drug. I just look at it different bec its OTC. Thanks again, seriously. Michael
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 14, 2007, at 0:10:04
In reply to Re: Football, thanks for that research, wow, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 23:56:12
I began taking Nardil around March 28, along with 4mg of Klonopin and 100-200 mg of Seroquel. By the second day, I started feeling "stoned" or buzzed all throughout the day. My pdoc quickly determined it was the Serquel and had me go down to 100 to 50 to 25. Well, that took away the "stoned feeling."
But I still felt a lot of daytime sedation, along with insomnia (never slept more than four straight hours since beginning it, but was on vacation so tried to take naps to compensate). I was getting so tired that on a few days I had to pull over and take a nap in my car. (Dont worry, never nodded off while driving).
Finally I got so fed up with daytime sedation that I started drinking Cokes and it helped maybe 10-percent. Then yesterday I bought caffeine pills (No Doz) and took 200 mg. I felt about 50-percent better, but the effect I guess kept getting stronger over time, hence a 38-hour stretch without any sleep. It ended with 2.5 hours of sleep but now I am wide awake again at midnight.
I have read many places that caffeine (in small amounts) is perfectly safe to take on MAOIs and my blood pressure did not go up at all over the 38 hours.
Now I am trying my best to be patient. I knew going in that Nardil has some nasty side effects, many of which go away within a couple of months. I will give Nardil a full trial, no matter what it takes.
DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR SLEEP? I bought some Melatonin today from Wal-Mart but havent taken it and probably wont until I talk to doc on Monday (meet with him Tuesday). Unlike caffeine, I have not been able to find any data on ppl taking Melatonin with Nardil therefore am not going to chance it. Thanks, Michael
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 14, 2007, at 0:12:04
In reply to Re: Football, thanks for that research, wow, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 23:56:12
Any advice on how to get better sleep would be appreciated.
Posted by Jedi on April 14, 2007, at 2:44:56
In reply to Jedi, Gardnergirl, Chairman MAOI, Fred, OTHERS????, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 14, 2007, at 0:12:04
> Any advice on how to get better sleep would be appreciated.
Michael,
I'm currently using 50mg of Seroquel and it works great for me. I recently swiched from Nardil(90mg) to Parnate(80mg) because of the intense carb cravings on Nardil. When I first started on Nardil about ten years ago, I used trazodone. It made me more spacey than Seroquel. I've also used diphenhydramine hydrochloride(Benadryl) at up to 75mg to induce sleep. I am really sensitive to the meds that affect the histamine receptors.My biggest side effect on Parnate now is the afternoon somnolence. It seemed to disipate after a while on Nardil. I hope it does the same on Parnate. Right now, almost every afternoon, when I get off work, I end up taking a 1.5 to 2.0 hour nap.
Well the Seroquel is kicking in and my eyes are drooping. I probably spelled everything wrong in this post. Anyway, I hope you find the solution to your insomnia.
Good Night,
Jedi
Posted by SandyWeb on April 14, 2007, at 13:07:22
In reply to Re: I have been up for 38 straight hours on No Doz, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 20:30:59
I just read a few of the postings in this thread, but it's not good to be going this long without sleep. Sleep is the time when your whole body slows down and the repair and rejuvenation work takes place. There's a reason for sleep.
I went 42 hours once without sleep, and I was FREAKING!!! I came off a med cold-turkey, and that was one of the reactions I had. And being sleepy always makes me more anxious. But I was wide awake and just praying my little heart out to PLEASE let me at least get a couple hours of sleep!
As for No Doz (caffeine pills, right?). You can get more caffeine from coffee or those energy drinks (like the one in the commercial that gives you wings. LOL. Bull, is it? I don't know!!!). But you don't want to be taking caffeine if you're not sleeping. Just give your body a chance to slow down and repair itself, THEN you can take a No Doz during the day when your brain is functioning on some rest.
God bless,
Sandy
Posted by football on April 14, 2007, at 15:16:07
In reply to Re: Jedi, Gardnergirl, Chairman MAOI, Fred, OTHERS???? » UgottaHaveHope, posted by Jedi on April 14, 2007, at 2:44:56
My magic formula for getting a great night's sleep on Nardil is to take 25 MG of Seroquel and 12.5 MG of Benadryl.
I fall asleep within 10 minutes of my head hitting the pillow, stay asleep all night, and wake up feeling refreshed in the morning.
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 14, 2007, at 15:53:56
In reply to Re: Jedi, Gardnergirl, Chairman MAOI, Fred, OTHERS???? » UgottaHaveHope, posted by Jedi on April 14, 2007, at 2:44:56
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 14, 2007, at 15:59:49
In reply to Re: Jedi, Gardnergirl, Chairman MAOI, Fred, OTHERS???? » UgottaHaveHope, posted by Jedi on April 14, 2007, at 2:44:56
Jedi, I know all meds affect everyone differently, but that seems odd that Parnate made you tired in afternoon. After all, it has a rep for being "energizing" while Nardil is supposed to be "more sedating."
Q1: When did you take Seroquel on Nardil? At bedtime?
Q2: How has Parnate affected your anxiety differently than Nardil?
Thanks always for your reponses. Prayers for you on Parnate
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 14, 2007, at 16:04:46
In reply to Re: I have been up for 38 straight hours on No Doz » UgottaHaveHope, posted by SandyWeb on April 14, 2007, at 13:07:22
Sandy: I was praying, too. Even though I was not panicking (which is unusual for me) I knew if it kept up I was headed for danger and probably the hospital.
I know what you mean about sleep: If you dont get it, it makes the whole day 100 times worse. After all if you are challenged emotionally, sleep is your escape. And if you cant get any escape, life can become unbearable.
Thanks for your reply, Michael
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 14, 2007, at 16:07:23
In reply to Re: Jedi, Gardnergirl, Chairman MAOI, Fred, OTHERS, posted by football on April 14, 2007, at 15:16:07
I am going to try that tonight. Two Q's:
1. How long btw your last dose of Nardil and 50mg of Seroquel?
2. Which Benadryl do you take?
THANKS
Posted by Jedi on April 14, 2007, at 17:33:47
In reply to Re: I thought Parnate would give you MORE energy » Jedi, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 14, 2007, at 15:59:49
> Jedi, I know all meds affect everyone differently, but that seems odd that Parnate made you tired in afternoon. After all, it has a rep for being "energizing" while Nardil is supposed to be "more sedating."
Actually the afternoon tiredness is a pretty common side effect with Parnate as well as Nardil. I'm pretty sure it will become less of a problem as I get more accustomed to the medication.
> Q1: When did you take Seroquel on Nardil? At bedtime?I take Seroquel about an hour before I'm ready to go to bed. Then it's out like a light. I don't think I ever took Seroquel when I was in my hypomanic phase of Nardil. I remember working on a project just straight through the night and the next day. The hypomania should not last, for you. Maybe I'll give the 25mg Seroquel and 12.5mg Benadryl a try also. They both affect the histamine receptors and might help with the morning fogginess from the Seroquel. One night I woke up to use the bathroom, on 50mg Seroquel, about two hours after going to bed. It was all I could do to make it there and back.
>
> Q2: How has Parnate affected your anxiety differently than Nardil?When I switched I had my MD up my clonazepam to 2mg from the 1mg I had been taking on Nardil. Since Parnate does not affect GABA like Nardil, I think Nardil is more robust when it comes to treating Social and Generalized Anxiety. I still believe the best combination for Social Anxiety is Nardil augmented with clonazepam. So far, my serious-sweaty palm anxiety, has not retured on Parnate.
>
> Thanks always for your reponses. Prayers for you on Parnate.Thank you for caring! So far the Parnate is hanging in there. Every other time, over the past ten years, that I've quit Nardil for another drug trial; the major depression has returned. I'm really crossing my fingers this time, because the sweet carbohydrate cravings are gone on Parnate. I really need to take off about 75 pounds of this medication induced weight gain, before it seriously affects the other systems in my body.
Best of Luck,
Jedi
Posted by football on April 14, 2007, at 19:18:58
In reply to Football, two Q's on your sleep formula » football, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 14, 2007, at 16:07:23
> I am going to try that tonight. Two Q's:
>
> 1. How long btw your last dose of Nardil and 50mg of Seroquel?
>
> 2. Which Benadryl do you take?
>
> THANKS> I am going to try that tonight. Two Q's:
>
> 1. How long btw your last dose of Nardil and 50mg of Seroquel?
>
> 2. Which Benadryl do you take?
>
> THANKS1.It's 25 MG of Seroquel, and I take my last dose of Nardil around 6 or so, and the Seroquel about 30 minutes before I plan on going to bed, so usually about 4-6 hours after the 30 MG Nardil dose.
2. I was wrong, it's 25 MG of Benadryl that I take not 12.5, and it's just your basic Benadryl that you can get anywhere. Mine happens to be the Walgreens brand.
Posted by FredPotter on April 16, 2007, at 14:13:16
In reply to No longer stoned on Nardil, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 13, 2007, at 6:36:26
Hey Michael, like you say to me. Don't give up on Nardil until at least 6 weeks. Yes I'm like a chatter box too. Ideas rush into my head and I can't get them out fast enough. Sometimes this can feel uncomfortable though. After a fair trial the next thing to try is Parnate I think. I find Nardil makes me feel heavy and wheezy but my thoughts are speeded up and I try to do several things at once, whereas before I did nothing at once.
regards Fred
Posted by Jedi on April 17, 2007, at 1:47:13
In reply to Re: Football, two Q's on your sleep formula, posted by football on April 14, 2007, at 19:18:58
...
> 1.It's 25 MG of Seroquel, and I take my last dose of Nardil around 6 or so, and the Seroquel about 30 minutes before I plan on going to bed, so usually about 4-6 hours after the 30 MG Nardil dose.
>
> 2. I was wrong, it's 25 MG of Benadryl that I take not 12.5, and it's just your basic Benadryl that you can get anywhere. Mine happens to be the Walgreens brand.Hi football,
I've been trying your 25mg Seroquel with 25mg Benadryl the last couple of nights. Seems to work pretty well for me and I have less of that drugged out feeling in the morning.
Thanks,
Jedi
Posted by elanor roosevelt on April 17, 2007, at 21:36:24
In reply to Re: I thought Parnate would give you MORE energy » UgottaHaveHope, posted by Jedi on April 14, 2007, at 17:33:47
Jedi,
Are you dropping pounds on the Parnate? I lost ten pounds while I stayed on Parnate and at the gym i was like wonder woman.Also didn't fidget at night with my cuticles and nails like I do when I am on ssri's.
Hope it keeps working well.
Posted by Jedi on April 17, 2007, at 23:59:35
In reply to parnate and weight loss, posted by elanor roosevelt on April 17, 2007, at 21:36:24
>
> Jedi,
> Are you dropping pounds on the Parnate? I lost ten pounds while I stayed on Parnate and at the gym i was like wonder woman.
>
> Also didn't fidget at night with my cuticles and nails like I do when I am on ssri's.
> Hope it keeps working well.
elanor,
You must have read my mind on this subject. My primary reason for switching from Nardil to Parnate was the intense sweet carbohydrate cravings and associated weight gain with Nardil. I was just going to post on the weight issue this evening.Yes, Parnate has given me a more even playing field when it comes to losing weight. I've taken off 15 pounds, with a lot left to go, since starting on Parnate around the first of March. So far my major depression hasn't returned. Something about Nardil would just keep me eating, even when I was full. I know from the other posts that not everyone gets this side effect, but it sure hit me. Over a ten year period, at one point I was up more than 110 pounds from my normal weight of about 200. Now, I'm about 270, but I feel I can actually eat normally again, exercise, and take off the rest of the excess weight. Thanks for asking.
Good Luck,
Jedi
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