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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 10:19:08
Well since none of the benzos in high doses even work for me and none of the pdocs I see want me on an antipsychotic cause of the side effects. And they also tooke me off the AD's as they don't work and I have been on them for longer than six weeks luvox the last for years. And two mood stabalizers but my mood is stable. And no MAOI's for me I would have tried the EMSAM but the pdoc said it was too stimulating. So I think since I'm getting older and people didn't used to live even into menopause that the brain is dead. Wierd thought or maybe true? Love Phillipa
Posted by johnnyj on March 24, 2007, at 10:54:02
In reply to Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me, posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 10:19:08
Have you tried remeron? At 15 it would probably give you good sleep and the weight gain can be managed.
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 11:22:35
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me » Phillipa, posted by johnnyj on March 24, 2007, at 10:54:02
Johnny yup with 15mg of chloral hydrate to sleep and xanax and klonopin all prescribed by the same doctor this one in a hospital. And he put me in withdrawal and had to see a neurologist who said get a pdoc who is not bezophobic. I did. Love Phillipa
Posted by Klavot on March 24, 2007, at 12:16:50
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me » johnnyj, posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 11:22:35
You know, Phillipa, there are certain benefits to being med-free. I myself have been med-free for about six weeks now, and life's not all bad... Try it, you just might like it.
Klavot
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 13:02:41
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me, posted by Klavot on March 24, 2007, at 12:16:50
Klavot that's what I would love. I know I'll always need some thyroid med but the others I don't want and never did. Can you help me? My babblelight is on. If that's not comfortable to you could you explain dx, meds , lenght of time on them and how you stopped. I desperately need to hear your story. pretty pretty please? Love Phillipa
Posted by Iansf on March 24, 2007, at 13:13:58
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me » Klavot, posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 13:02:41
Phillipa, presuming you still need help of some sort (and maybe you don't), have you considered something like brain entrainment, neurofeedback, ultra-depth hypnosis or neuro-linguistic programming? I can't vouch for any of them, but Internet searches can bring up info on them. One of them might be useful.
John
Posted by Klavot on March 24, 2007, at 16:09:28
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me » Klavot, posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 13:02:41
Compared to some people here, my problems are minor. Perhaps I never really needed the meds. Perhaps I was simply using them as pep pills. Maybe many of my problems were situational, and I was only fooling myself into thinking they were psychiatric. I am speaking only for myself here, please! I'm NOT saying that "depression is only in the head".
My official diagnosis was major depressive disorder. I spent roughly the whole of 2006 on Zoloft 50 mg / day and Wellbutrin 150 mg / day. Earlier this year, I became worried that my ambition was being sapped by the Zoloft, so I pretty much just stopped.
My observation, Phillipa, was simply that, by your own admission, psychotropics don't seem to help you much, so I was just thinking that perhaps the next step would be to see what happens without them.
Klavot
> Klavot that's what I would love. I know I'll always need some thyroid med but the others I don't want and never did. Can you help me? My babblelight is on. If that's not comfortable to you could you explain dx, meds , lenght of time on them and how you stopped. I desperately need to hear your story. pretty pretty please? Love Phillipa
Posted by valene on March 24, 2007, at 18:04:41
In reply to Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me, posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 10:19:08
Phillipa, you went from 15-20 mg valium to 6mg xanax xr, to 8mg ativan. The xanax and ativan doseages were way up there, higher than your valium. Puzzled as to why they did not work.
Xanax 6mg is equal to 120MG of valium (according to Ashton). that's a heck of a lot of benzo. Ativan 8mg would be about 80mg. of valium, a substantial difference. I don't get why this doc changed your benzo equivalency's to that extent.
And *wrong* about "old age"!!!! People didn't used to live afer menopause? Well that was in the dark ages; this is NOW. You are still middle aged! Old age has been redefined as over 70 or 75 at least! You are not old! So yes that is weird. if 50 is the new 40, then 60 is the new 50!
Do you mean they don't cover your anxiety? Even with that amount of an increase? Maybe you would be better to go back on the valium at a higher dose than 15-20mg? Just a thought. In the meantime you will have to withdraw slowly from your benzo use, no cold turkey, right?
Love ya,
Val
> Well since none of the benzos in high doses even work for me and none of the pdocs I see want me on an antipsychotic cause of the side effects. And they also tooke me off the AD's as they don't work and I have been on them for longer than six weeks luvox the last for years. And two mood stabalizers but my mood is stable. And no MAOI's for me I would have tried the EMSAM but the pdoc said it was too stimulating. So I think since I'm getting older and people didn't used to live even into menopause that the brain is dead. Wierd thought or maybe true? Love Phillipa
Posted by stargazer on March 24, 2007, at 18:36:31
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me, posted by valene on March 24, 2007, at 18:04:41
Phillip, I was thinking the same thing, if the meds don't work, why take them? What your body may need more is a chance to be off all meds for a while and just give yourself time to cleanse and detox and maybe get the thyroid regulated since that may be one of the reasons nothing works anyway...So no more meds...how long has it been since you've been off meds altogether before?
I have come off everything from time to time and I think it's a good exercise to know what your "clean" baseline is and what meds are essential and what meds are useless or harmful to you.
My rule of thumb is I don't want to take anything that makes me feel worse or does absolutely nothing, because if it's not doing anything, there can still be negative effects on your body (kidnys, liver)that you wouldn't even be aware of, especially with larger than recommended doses. Higher than recommended doses scare me. That's why I try an take even smaller doses to start than my doc recommends.
I just started Abilify at 5 mg, the pdoc said start at 10 mg, and I may even drop to 0.25 mg since I'm having hypotensive effects, but you know with all the unknowns, it is better to start and stay at the lowest possible dose.
So, rather than feel negative about all of this, it may turn out to be a blessing for you if your thyroid can be regulated and all of your anxiety melts away into oblivion.
Stargazer
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 19:58:54
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me/Phillipa, posted by stargazer on March 24, 2007, at 18:36:31
Stargazer I think that is exactly what the pdoc is doing. First was the antidepession med baseline. Now he is seeing what my tolerance is. Funny I would seriously go to a detox place and told the PHD this as I work like things to be the way they used to be when medicine was good. Are you familiar with Silver Hills in Fairfield County? Tennis courts, swimming pools all type of therapy and secluded in the woods . A lot of movie actors and actresses used to go there. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 20:42:49
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me, posted by valene on March 24, 2007, at 18:04:41
Valene remember I was on luvox which makes valium and xanax even stronger. Love Phillipa ativan doesn't
Posted by stargazer on March 24, 2007, at 23:26:45
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me/Phillipa » stargazer, posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 19:58:54
So you want to go to a place like Silver Hills in New Canaan? That's where James Taylor supposedly wrote "Fire and Rain" during a bout with depression. What did your doc say when you suggested that? Who is the PHD you are seeing,someone new, any good?
You are too funny...I'm sure we would all like to go there with you. See if you can get a 2-fer deal and I'll join you since I know my insurance won't pay, maybe yours will.
No meds now for how long???? Keep us posted in a log here with your symptoms as each day goes by. Although I guess that would be considered withdrawl, right?
SG
Posted by yxibow on March 25, 2007, at 17:36:49
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me, posted by valene on March 24, 2007, at 18:04:41
> Phillipa, you went from 15-20 mg valium to 6mg xanax xr, to 8mg ativan. The xanax and ativan doseages were way up there, higher than your valium. Puzzled as to why they did not work.
>
> Xanax 6mg is equal to 120MG of valium (according to Ashton). that's a heck of a lot of benzo. Ativan 8mg would be about 80mg. of valium, a substantial difference. I don't get why this doc changed your benzo equivalency's to that extent.6mg of Xanax is equal to 60mg of Valium. The 2nd chart on Dr Bob's site is considerably off in places. I have been through medication tapers and I know the relation to Klonopin and Valium and that is pretty much right on, the first list at
http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/bzd.html
8mg of Ativan is about 40mg of Valium. It may feel more powerful as Valium is a weaker agent due to benzodiazepine lipid issues, the same goes for Xanax.
There are probably people out there who are on even more high dose Valium than I am, somewhat less than the largest upper range of Klonopin generally given, for specific cases which is 8mg. Normally 4mg.
The Xanax only feels more powerful because I dont take it very often. Otherwise, its just equal to another half pill (10) of Valium.
> And *wrong* about "old age"!!!! People didn't used to live afer menopause? Well that was in the dark ages; this is NOW.(Some people did live to ripe old ages in the far past but that was if they survived childhood ilnesses and adult diseases like plague.)
You are still middle aged! Old age has been redefined as over 70 or 75 at least!
Most definately. People are living longer lives these days provided they take care of themselves. Exercise your mind and your body.
You are not old! So yes that is weird. if 50 is the new 40, then 60 is the new 50!
I hope 30 is still the new 20 because I'm feeling detached from my youth, like where was that 18 year old...But its all in the mind. I volunteer a few hours at the moment at a cyber cafe for seniors (defined as 60) in a multiuse senior complex run by the city, helping people who came from different backgrounds and never had access to technology to get on the Internet.
And I see a wide variety of people in different states but it actually the social action when it happens I think is the best thing.
>
> Do you mean they don't cover your anxiety? Even with that amount of an increase? Maybe you would be better to go back on the valium at a higher dose than 15-20mg? Just a thought. In the meantime you will have to withdraw slowly from your benzo use, no cold turkey, right?
>
> Love ya,
> Val
>
>
> > Well since none of the benzos in high doses even work for me and none of the pdocs I see want me on an antipsychotic cause of the side effects.
Well, its all about informed consent, I don't particularly like to be on an AP but it is an important part of my treatment and one that isnt without trouble at the moment.I'm not suggesting that it is something right for you, but sometimes adding a small dose of Seroquel which is in the noise level of effects to an SSRI can make a difference. It's not the same as saying, oh here, take the latest neuroleptic, you have anxiety, etc. There are specific reasons for them and there should only be specific reasons.
And they also tooke me off the AD's as they don't work and I have been on them for longer than six weeks luvox the last for years.Have you tried any TCAs ? And as I recall the dose you mentioned of Luvox was very low -- it needs to be a higher amount to be effective.
Weight aside, the tetracyclic Remeron is an excellent antidepressant for those who have treatment resistant depression.
And two mood stabalizers but my mood is stable.
How long did you try the mood stabilizers? Which ones did you try?
And no MAOI's for me I would have tried the EMSAM but the pdoc said it was too stimulating.
I have heard its stimulating. There is the lowest dose patch.
So I think since I'm getting older and people didn't used to live even into menopause that the brain is dead. Wierd thought or maybe true?
Not necessarily. We are learning more that the brain is not necessary frozen in amber. Some things can regenerate. And as I said activity, using your mind to its fullest, is the surest way to keep it. Its a simple concept but there are truths to it.
I know you're going through issues with your thyroid -- I think that should be stabilized as much as it can and then you can see where you are, medication or not, therapy or not, etc.Mixing experiments all at the same time will never prove anything
I wish you luck and try not to say never. My psychiatrist tries to get me to phrase statements in the positive as much as possible. If you believe in it, whatever it is for you, positivity is the most important. Its one of those do as I say not as I do, because I know how hard it is to deal with a tough condition.
-- much wishesJay
Posted by greywolf on March 25, 2007, at 17:46:55
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me » Phillipa, posted by Klavot on March 24, 2007, at 16:09:28
Phillippa:
Try the Emsam. It starts out at a low 6mg dose, and I have not found that dosage the least bit stimulating during the past week that I've been on it. If that works for you, then you can gradually work your way up to 9mg and 12mg.
I feel for you. It's been many, many years of meds for me, and the most painful aspect of my bipolar is the crushing depression. I have been through so many med regimens that I can't remember half of them. My current psychiatrist comes well-recommended by other psychiatrists locally as a guy who's well-versed in pharmaceuticals, and even he's scratching his head. Emsam is a last-ditch effort before VNS. I'm hoping it works, but who knows?
Talk to your doctor again and design some safe circumstances under which you can try Emsam and figure out whether it's too stimulating. It truly is one of those meds where YMMV.
Take care.
Greywolf
Posted by Phillipa on March 25, 2007, at 18:16:07
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me/Phillipa, posted by stargazer on March 24, 2007, at 23:26:45
Stargazer so you know of Silver Hills near the Silvermine Tavern on the River. Anyway I am off all antidepressants not all meds The pdoc wants to see a baseline of me without antidepressants. He just wants me on benzos. Shocked me when he put me on 8mg of ativan. I think he's looking to see what the tolerance is. I find I take 4mg at betime with 3 of lunesta. Then when I wake if it's at least six hours take 2mg more. Then about 2 in the afternoon only take lmg. And thats it till bedtime. I still don't feel well. But for some reason as the day goes by and not having them in my body I feel better and then around 5 when riding the bike even better. So thats wierd. The PHD let me pick what I wanted to work on choices of my issues were aging, work, and I forget what else. I picked work as I have my license and want to just work about 12 hours toal split a week. I'd like to work a crisis line hear they are volunteer but don't know or intake of patients. I could do triage at this hospital here as I've been in their er and they are very slow. Love Phillipa
Posted by jonathanupr on March 26, 2007, at 2:01:46
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me/Phillipa » stargazer, posted by Phillipa on March 25, 2007, at 18:16:07
from what I've experienced and also some info I picked up from some psychopharmacological research, when looking at the effect benzos have upon the individual over a period of time, there is a gradual tolerance build up.... I've read in places that taking GABA supplementation can readily help fight off such tolerance (as the benzo receptors seem to depend on the GABA being available, if no GABA then it doesn't matter if the receptors are stimulated or not, there'll be no inhibitory effect in the CNS).
Also, I've taken Gabitril the past year and a half with great success (a low dose of 4 mg, anything beyond that makes me so mentally blocked), and this has helped a lot with keeping the Klonopin tolerance down. The GRI effect has seemingly kept up without waning, as everytime I take the Gabitril in the evening I feel the effect, and it's actually rejuvenating me these days rather than sedating me as it had been before.
So if the receptors aren't doing the trick, maybe see if the GABA is there or not (Picamillon is a decent supplement for GABA, not a god-send or anything but decent).... if that doesn't ignite it, then it couldn't hurt to try a GABA Reuptake Inhibitor (Gabitril has seemingly been either good or negative for people, I don't get the negative).
Posted by yxibow on March 26, 2007, at 3:44:04
In reply to Re: Guess It's Over No Meds It's Me/Phillipa, posted by jonathanupr on March 26, 2007, at 2:01:46
> from what I've experienced and also some info I picked up from some psychopharmacological research, when looking at the effect benzos have upon the individual over a period of time, there is a gradual tolerance build up....
There can be tolerance, it depends on the individual, certainly -- I've experienced it, but it can be reversed by slowly returning your benzodiazepine level to zero, flushing out and then rinse and repeat. Of course that leaves a quandary for people who at the same time have and anxiety disorder such as Panic Disorder and the like who depend on Xanax and other substances to keep them in check.Then again there are people who have been on the same Valium prescription since 1962.
I've read in places that taking GABA supplementation can readily help fight off such tolerance (as the benzo receptors seem to depend on the GABA being available, if no GABA then it doesn't matter if the receptors are stimulated or not, there'll be no inhibitory effect in the CNS).
Alas, GABA supplementation will go in the body and pretty much out the body. It has no capability to cross the blood brain barrier. Only Neurontin and Lyrica do because they are modified GABA analogues and can cross the gate.
> Also, I've taken Gabitril the past year and a half with great success (a low dose of 4 mg, anything beyond that makes me so mentally blocked), and this has helped a lot with keeping the Klonopin tolerance down. The GRI effect has seemingly kept up without waning, as everytime I take the Gabitril in the evening I feel the effect, and it's actually rejuvenating me these days rather than sedating me as it had been before.
I am glad you have had good success with Gabitril. Its one of the last AEDs I haven't tried because it can overmodulate GABA and in some cases cause seizures. But I'm sure your doctor is well aware of the potential.
> So if the receptors aren't doing the trick, maybe see if the GABA is there or not (Picamillon is a decent supplement for GABA, not a god-send or anything but decent).... if that doesn't ignite it, then it couldn't hurt to try a GABA Reuptake Inhibitor (Gabitril has seemingly been either good or negative for people, I don't get the negative).
Have you actually tried Picamilon -- I'm leery of being a guinea pig for some strange Russian Neurontin like thing?
This is the end of the thread.
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