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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 46. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 12:16:16
Anyone else feel hopeless that were on benzos that all meds no matter what class will eventially poop out or become tolerant. So what's left then? The insane asylums again? Or more street people is that what happened to them? I wasn't doing that bad until all the negative benzo stuff and a bunch of others have e-mailed me the same now they are more anxious again. Cause of all the negative. Is there no way to repair the damage? Love Phillipa ps antidepressants, mood stabalizers and the SSRI's TCA's MAOI's included
Posted by dbc on February 8, 2007, at 12:55:10
In reply to Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 12:16:16
Taking a break and letting yourself dry out a bit. You'll come back to the drugs like a virgin...er uh inexperianced user.
Posted by FredPotter on February 8, 2007, at 14:06:28
In reply to Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 12:16:16
Are you saying you became tolerant to benzos? Dr Shipko at the Panic Disorder Research Institute in Pasadena (?) told me tolerance referred to becoming tolerant to side effects. The anxiolytic effects don't wear off however. But that's not what I'm hearing, or experiencing
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 8, 2007, at 14:27:07
In reply to Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 12:16:16
Hey...I hope you're okay? Well, its a difficult thing, I guess in some people drugs work indefinately and in others, they poop out etc. Whats wrong Philipa? Are your drugs you're using pooping out? Love Meri
Posted by med_empowered on February 8, 2007, at 14:37:52
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 8, 2007, at 14:27:07
try ramping up the dose. Back in the 70s, a common valium dose was 40mgs/day. That may seem like a lot now, since when docs use valium these days they usually stay under 20-30mgs/day but...look at Klonopin. 3-4mgs/day is in the mid-upper range of normal, and that's roughly 60-80mgs/day valium. It just happens that klonopin isn't (yet) considered "bad," so pdocs rx away.
Can you switch docs? B/c it shouldn't be so hard for you to get a doc to do long-term benzos. I mean, some people just respond well to them--that's how it goes. If they won't rx valium, try xanax, especially the xr. There are other meds...like lyrica, maybe....but benzos are safe and non-toxic.Good luck!
Posted by notfred on February 8, 2007, at 16:17:36
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope » Phillipa, posted by FredPotter on February 8, 2007, at 14:06:28
" Dr Shipko at the Panic Disorder Research Institute in Pasadena (?) told me tolerance referred to becoming tolerant to side effects. The anxiolytic effects don't wear off however. "
That is my personal experience. They no longer make me sleepy or produce euphoria. The anxiolytic and muscle relaxing effects are the same as they were decades ago.
Posted by bassman on February 8, 2007, at 18:28:02
In reply to Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 12:16:16
No answers-just hang in there, Phillipa. We're with you.
Posted by yxibow on February 8, 2007, at 18:34:56
In reply to Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 12:16:16
> Anyone else feel hopeless that were on benzos that all meds no matter what class will eventially poop out or become tolerant. So what's left then? The insane asylums again? Or more street people is that what happened to them? I wasn't doing that bad until all the negative benzo stuff and a bunch of others have e-mailed me the same now they are more anxious again. Cause of all the negative. Is there no way to repair the damage? Love Phillipa ps antidepressants, mood stabalizers and the SSRI's TCA's MAOI's included
Hang in there , Jan... I think you're just going through a rough spot and maybe reacting negatively to what some people may feel in their personal opinion. You shouldn't let that affect your life and your opinion of medications and what works for you.
I would also agree that if you can tolerate it, a short "drying out period" can bring back some use from some medications, especially benzodiazepines. You've been on them long enough to know that you can use them long term and maybe you've gotten slightly habituated. The safest would be a drying out, but if you added another 10mg or so, it wouldn't be terrible. Just be sure to acclimate to it and be aware of the usual heavy machinery risks, etc.
-- tidings
Jay
Posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 19:16:58
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on February 8, 2007, at 18:34:56
Actually no pooping out taking less than before. Just kind of tired of hearing how bad some people think they are for you. As med said they are the safest meds known to man. And I believe that when stress is higher in your life you may need a bit more for a few days. But seriously some countries think nothing of codeine over the counter. None here. But we are allowed benzos so people can continue to live their lives and maybe work on issues in theraphy. And seriously I really don't believe if you've ever taken a benzo first that an ad will work without one too. And a lot of countries don't have the anxiety problems we have here as wine and beer are a normal part of a meal which is like a benzo so they the people remain relaxed. Love Phillipa
Posted by Declan on February 8, 2007, at 20:08:15
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by med_empowered on February 8, 2007, at 14:37:52
My experience with high dose benzo use was that while calming (of course) it was bad for my mental health.
Benzos compare well with psych meds, but that means bugger all.
Yeah well, my 2 bobs worth.
Posted by valene on February 8, 2007, at 20:29:42
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 19:16:58
Phillipa, I hear you. There's no easy answer, of course but the suggestions made above to maybe increase your diazepam a bit might just help. YOu went down in dose and if you are still experiencing anxiety, that could be why.
I take 1.75 mg. xanax which is equal to about 30mg. diazepam according to Ashton's charts (some would say more like 15mg). Don't be scared. There are lots worse things than benzodiazepines! You don't abuse them. Maybe talk to your pdoc about upping the dose at least temporarily? Of course we would all like to be med-free but as you said they are proven safe and they do work.
(I am using my husband's computer so I still don't have e-mail, sorry - hope to have that fixed in a couple days).
Love, Val
Posted by laima on February 9, 2007, at 6:33:56
In reply to Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 12:16:16
Phillipa,People are obviously having varying experiences with their benzos- there are probably many factors involved, such as how long they've been on them, which ones, what other meds they are on which are intermingling with them, doses, perhaps even body size and how their metabolism is.
I think you should look at your situation, do as much research as you can, and weigh your pros and cons of all options: no changes, try to come off them for a break, or increase. Maybe there are some other options, as well.
A few thoughts: if you take a break you can eventually see where your base level anxiety is at- I already wrote about the strange experience I had, where it turned out clonazapam/klonopin was making me feel worse. I was quite intrigued with what I read about in Ashton's online book, about the possibility of chronic withdrawal while using drug as directed- I think that's what happened in my case. Another observation- every time I took a break with benzos, whether clonazapam, or xanax before that, they regained their effectiveness. That's really good news!
A risk of increasing your dose could be that you acclimate to the new dose and end up in the same boat, but on higher dose.I've heard, read, that side effects of benzos can manifest or become stronger on higher doses- that might be something to weigh as you make your decision. That may also likely have something to do with why doctors are or are not willing to increase doses indefinately.
I found the valium link for you at medline:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a682047.html(They do say: "Tolerance may develop with long-term or excessive use, making the drug less effective.")
Wikipedia is also interesting, and has some link to other sites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValiumHere's their link to the manufacture's official insert for the brand-name version of valium:
http://www.rocheusa.com/products/valium/tabspi.pdfI've personally found Heather Ashton's book to be quite informative- there were parts I was skeptical about, but other parts which were truely helpful and extremely insightful.
(Even Einstein didn't get everything right.)Again, I really think you need to individually weigh your pros and cons for the various options. What's right for one person's situation might not be so for another. What happened to one person might not happen to another, either.
Good luck.
Posted by laima on February 9, 2007, at 7:11:21
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope » Phillipa, posted by laima on February 9, 2007, at 6:33:56
By the way, when it became clear that I was experiencing high anxiety and dismal sleep with clonazapam, and the mutual decision was made by me and doctor to come off it, he prescribed 2.5-5. mg zyprexa for about 6 weeks. It is not the most popular med, I was very unhappy with some of the side effects, but it was AMAZING for sleep and helpful for anxiety. It was the first time in an awfully long time that I actually slept through the night. Yes, I gained weight, over the holidays, too- but now the 10 pounds or so is coming right off, off zyprexa, excersing more, eating normally. So- I ended up with less anxiety. Doctor actually asked if I wanted to go back onto small dose klonopin recently, for my restless sleep. He said it would be effective again now for that, and for anxiety, too! But I am opting not to for the moment, just because I think I'm doing alright, and I want to see how things move along. Also started a focused therapy, which is helping me sort out the matters I am worrying about. I also feel good knowing benzos will now be an effective option for me again when/if I decide I need them. That's an enourmous relief!Yes, my sleep is restless-"active"- but I'm choosing to just live with that for now- not tired during the day, feel alert. I'm also concerned about benzo effect on sleep architecture, and have noticed that I sleep longer in the morning, don't wake up panicky anymore, nightmares vanished. My doctor thought the early, panicky wakenings were due to clonazapam wearing off early in the morning, and that what I was experiencing was rebound anxiety. I wonder how I'll do over time having "natural" sleep, though I'm resisting the ordeal of going through another sleep study to see what is actually going on.
So that's how I weighed the pros and cons in my case.
Posted by resident9997 on February 9, 2007, at 8:40:21
In reply to Re: Hope))Phillipa, posted by laima on February 9, 2007, at 7:11:21
Dear Phillipa, There can be hope without medication. In my case, benzodiazepines weren't the answer. I have been on (more and more) ativan and valium, not feeling 'relaxed' at all and ended up in a detox center as I had become totally addicted to them. Moreover, the benzo's made me very very depressed and suicidal. I really would not recommend them to anyone.
Posted by valene on February 9, 2007, at 10:37:34
In reply to Re: Hope))Phillipa, posted by resident9997 on February 9, 2007, at 8:40:21
Dear Jan,
Please remember that everyone's experience is different as we don't all have the same physiological makeup in our brains. What works for one person does not work for others, etc.All I am saying is that some people seemt to become tolerant of a benzo immediately and keep upping the dose to find no relief. Others like you and I have been taking a benzo for 20 years or more with relief not upping the dose. It is dependent on your individual chemistry as laima pointed out. You and I have both lowered our dose of benzodiazepine. But now you are having increased anxiety. Could it be tolerance withdrawal? Maybe.
No one here can prescribe what is best for *you* personally. I think you need a pdoc you can really trust to help you; no one should have to live with acute anxiety all the time. Some people are helped by psychotherapy reducing anxiety. Rooting for you, Jan.
Love, Val
Posted by Fivefires on February 9, 2007, at 11:45:19
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by med_empowered on February 8, 2007, at 14:37:52
Yep I agree here. There's this big 'movement away from benzos', but for some, and that includes me, they are a staple in my pantry!
I've been going through much the similar issue with my illness. I've been on 30mg a day of Val since nervous breakdown (which BTW occurred after a cold turkey off Klonopin), but now that has been two years ... so, time for another plan I believe. And, okay, maybe it's 'not tolerance' as I can see someone above defined tolerance. We need to uncover the proper word for this. What would that be?
I think an increase in Valium (last choice), or a Valium/Xanax switchover (like idea of Xanax long lasting), or maybe Klonopin (And, NOT a low dose dang it, maybe a build up, rather quickly!) w/ a prn Xanax or Valium.
I reiterate over and over to P my prob' is vastly anxiety and depression is the cart it pulls behind it.
Let's see where thread goes.
I'm so glad you started this thread P!
5f
Posted by Fivefires on February 9, 2007, at 11:47:01
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by notfred on February 8, 2007, at 16:17:36
Ditto that one too!
5f
Posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2007, at 11:58:00
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope » notfred, posted by Fivefires on February 9, 2007, at 11:47:01
Well I guess I'm wierd as they are the only meds that work for me. And more is not better i tried that last night. It's how I feel emotionally about them that dictates if they work or not. If fighting with my husband they don't work. If all is calm they do. Love Phillipa
Posted by Fivefires on February 9, 2007, at 12:01:30
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 19:16:58
Whoa Nellie ... You should publish that one P!
I know ... three post limit.
I'll shut up and await continued discussion, butt ...
first want to say I've suffered over a month because P wouldn't increase or give me anything but Vistaril. Thought I was going to end up on street. Big meeting today w/ P (the entire clinic has gone anti-benzo) and more, and I'm so glad this thread is behind me here. I should have been helped in early Jan. Since then I've worsened soooo much .. called EMS .. didn't get in because wouldn't 'tell a white lie about ideation' .. just trying to stay calm under someone throws me a something other than the Mr.Goodbars which I've been eating as if I'd not had a meal in days!
I'm going to post about how plan to approach P, visit today, w/ accompanying other peeps, re: 'this issue'. Like, this is really a coincidence man (Okay still have a sense of hippie talkin humor.), but for G*d's sake, who/what/when/where/andwhatever is trying to clean up our streets, because the sweeper is too wide and its about to trip me up and pull me in!
gettin'allampedup, 5f
Posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2007, at 12:24:04
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope » Phillipa, posted by Fivefires on February 9, 2007, at 12:01:30
What's to be afraid of if it's the truth? And I would rather since diabetes runs in my family. Stay away from any atypical antipsychotics. And if my Mother, Father, Sister, my Daughter Son, And Sister's Daughter Son all are on benzos and alchohol seems like it's genetic to me? And that is the extent of family since Mother and Father had no Brother or Sisters. And Ad's don't work for me pure and simple. Lucky if they do but not for me. The horror of the side effects necessitated hospitalization more than once. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2007, at 12:31:35
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope » Phillipa, posted by Fivefires on February 9, 2007, at 12:01:30
You know since I've done it in the past on my own I will just quit them and detox on my own. And BTW when I went off them before they worked exactly the same when I went back on them. So that's my plan. Love Phillipa ps I am going to prove to myself that seizures don't happen to everyone. First time I was told I would seize but didn't as laima said everyones chemistry is different. Heck if it wasn't we'd all be on the same meds.
Posted by ronaldo on February 9, 2007, at 13:15:31
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2007, at 12:31:35
Good Luck! Phillipa. I hope your plan works out and when you go back I hope everything tastes just as sweet.
ronaldo
Posted by kaleidoscope on February 9, 2007, at 14:33:05
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2007, at 11:58:00
Hi Jan
>If fighting with my husband they don't work. If all is calm they do.
If all is calm you are much more likely to feel calm! I don't think it is the Valium which makes you calm in these situations, it's simply natural that you would feel calmer. I would resist the tendency to assume that anytime you feel calm it's because the Valium is 'working', you would probably feel equally calm if you had tapered off it.
Tapering off the Valium would reduce your tolerance to it, allowing to to take it PRN with greater effect. I think this would be useful.
Take care
K
Posted by laima on February 9, 2007, at 15:42:42
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2007, at 12:31:35
Good luck Phillipa! And as they say, a person's own motivation is a major factor in detox off benzos (if you go that way)- and then if you decide to go back on- they'd work again! Or maybe you'd even find the valium was aggrevating you, as clonazapam apparently turned out to be aggrevating me. (I would never have believed it.) Who knows? So in any case, seems you stand to gain in a number of ways- worth a try?One thought about the atypical antipsychotics- I myself didn't end up with daibetes or any serious complications, perhaps because I only used a very low dose, for very short time. By the time time was up, I was plenty motivated to cut the zyprexa, and it wasn't a problem. I just readjusted to sleeping lighter as opposed to in a seriously knocked-out feeling way. (Which was nice for awhile.) Perhaps like benzos, it depends on a lot of factors, like length of use and amounts. Yes, weight gain, but to be fair, I was faced with an awful lot of very tasty holiday food during that time period, too- and the weight's coming off. And...as special bonus, those extra trips to the gym, motivated by the weight gain, seem to be helping my mood.
It seems highly unlikely you'd risk any seizures if you tapered, too. My understanding is that the risk is mostly for people who quit suddenly, cold--and not even all of them end up with any seizure. Maybe you could cross that off the list of things to worry about.
In any case, sounds like there could be much to gain from such a break. I wish you best of luck with your decision. And sure wish a lot of other meds could regain efficacy they way benzos can!
> You know since I've done it in the past on my own I will just quit them and detox on my own. And BTW when I went off them before they worked exactly the same when I went back on them. So that's my plan. Love Phillipa ps I am going to prove to myself that seizures don't happen to everyone. First time I was told I would seize but didn't as laima said everyones chemistry is different. Heck if it wasn't we'd all be on the same meds.
Posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2007, at 19:29:38
In reply to Re: Well Benzos Worked For Years Now No Hope » Phillipa, posted by laima on February 9, 2007, at 15:42:42
Laima really strange as I eat a lot of chocolate which contains theophylline and this reduces the effects of valium according to your links, also I have noticed that in the two years I have been back on valium from xanax that after the l0 years or so off it the old ahhh that's nices relaxing feeling didn't return. Also noticed that when I take the wake-up dose it doesn't put me back to sleep. But if I want to sleep 2 motrin let me sleep better. So maybe benzos don't work for me anymore. So what's a substitute if they don't? If the ad's don't work? Love Phillipa
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